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Former US Ethics chief Shaub: Trump presidency risks being labeled a "kleptocracy"

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jul/31/trump-ethics-chief-walter-shaub-kleptocracy

Speaking to the Guardian, Walter Shaub, who quit this month as director of the Office of Government Ethics (OGE), condemned the president for using his hotels and other properties for government business in what is in effect a free advertising campaign.

“His actions create the appearance of profiting from the presidency, and the appearance here is everything, because the demand I’m making is so much more than ‘have a clean heart’. It’s: ‘Have a clean heart and act appropriately,’” Shaub said.

“The fact that we’re having to ask questions about whether he’s intentionally using the presidency for profit is bad enough, because the appearance itself undermines confidence in government.”

He added: “It certainly risks people starting to refer to us as a kleptocracy. That’s a term people throw around fairly freely when they’re talking about Russia, fairly or unfairly, and we run the risk of getting branded the same way. America really should stand for more than that.”

Shaub continued: “You’ve had countries in the world who have suddenly booked major events at his hotel that they used to hold elsewhere. You’ve had businesses and charities – and these could be international businesses – with the ability to hold events at his place and basically funnel money to the president in the hopes that it will influence his decision making, and we can’t know for sure that it doesn’t.

“It may not, but again, it undermines faith in the integrity of government if we don’t know.”

Trump has praised the Turkish president, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, and Rodrigo Duterte of the Philippines, leaders of countries where he has financial interests, Shaub noted.

“Or you have his ban on people from certain Muslim-majority countries coming into the United States – and the countries excluded from that list, in that region of the world, include countries where he has significant financial interests. So this raises questions about the extent to which the United States’ interests are coming first.”

Profiteer from government if old.

Combined with last month's news that Trump exempted WH employees from his own ethics guidelines on lobbying, and it seems like all of the worst possible precedents are being set by this presidency. Moving past Trump, how do we demand that the next man or woman who holds the office has any kind of transparency or divests themselves from potential conflicts of interests?
 
i mean, the trump presidency has been labled a LOT of things. a lot more when the dust settles around this dumpster fire

there seems to be a lot of "norms" for a president to follow rather than actual laws, which hopefully will change dramatically
 
Pretty sure the opposite is happening and well publicized so I don't think I could agree with that.


By all means, go on. How is Trump sending every other weekend at his golf clubs in Florida on the government dime not profiting him? And that's just his direct actions.
 

WedgeX

Banned
Pretty sure the opposite is happening and well publicized so I don't think I could agree with that.

So Trump is acting super ethically, giving to charity, and promoting only the interests of the whole United States?

Might want to be a bit more clear.
 
it seems like all of the worst possible precedents are being set by this presidency.
Not for being a kleptocracy, not by a long shot, for anyone who remembers the Dumbya years (which c'mon, it wasn't that long ago). Ideological purgings, cost-plus contracts, bald-faced lying to the whole world, and anti-intellectualism run amok. Looting the country's coffers for personal gain is old hat. The stories leaking from Iraq about contractor abuse (and they worked quite hard to prevent them from leaking at all) would make anyone with a sense of ethics boil inside out. They set as much as two trillion dollars on fire, if not much more. We'll probably feel the effects of that for the rest of my life, and that was less than a decade ago. If anything, Trump is kind of reassuring in his pettiness -- not only does he undermine his own moves, he lacks the creativity to do anything as audacious as start a war in the Middle East and send Americans to slaughter purely to profit from the destruction a hundred times over. A banker in his/her psychopathy won't even know you exist as you're ruined financially for three generation to generate profits for a fraction of a second. Trump isn't that. Trump is like a five-year-old who only sees the cookie jar. Evil, perhaps, but almost benign in his own myopic stupidity.

That said, I did underestimate Dumbya in one respect -- his folks did see running the Executive as a job. An ideologically driven job, with disastrous results, but they did a lot more governing than I gave them credit for. What's new is that it feels like the anti-intellectual wilful ignorance that hampered America like a cancer has finally reached tipping point and is now a major factor in policy decisions. Dumbya's folks, at least, took some things seriously, and they took the Department of Energy's mission against nuclear threats very seriously (which kind of makes the whole Iraq War even more outrageous, since the DoE knew Iraq had no WMDs). Today, major bureaucracies like the Department of Education and Department of Energy are largely unstaffed, and what few there are have no idea what the agencies even do -- and don't even want to know. This has real-world implications that should keep everyone up at night, it not for the fact that no one's interested in finding out -- they're too busy demonizing government workers as useless.

The greed is kind of beside the point. There's a floor for incompetence if the greed comes from within. A slumlord will make far more money off you than a burglar, but at least has an interest in keeping the place just short of condemned. A thief is there to grab everything in sight and run; what happens to the place afterward is of no concern. Trump was sent to D.C. not by GOP insiders but as a sort of working class coup, a human Molotov cocktail. Not only will he have no fucks to give if the place burns down, he'll actually look good to his supports if he's the one who strikes the match.
 

DogDude

Member
By all means, go on. How is Trump sending every other weekend at his golf clubs in Florida on the government dime not profiting him? And that's just his direct actions.
He completely destroyed the Trump brand. His apartment prices are plumetting and he has lost licenses everywhere. It's possible he used it as a 4 year get richer plan but it's gonna cost him his whole empire at some point in the long run (or not even long at this point). There's a reason his kids despise him for forcing them into politics.
 
It was evident when he brought his whole family to the White House and gave them positions and security clearances. That would not be tolerated here. People complain because Trudeau hires too many nannies.
 
Risks being labeled?

Is this guy stuck back in January?

He's trying to be diplomatic. He's saying that it's bad that it looks like Trump is just using the presidency to funnel money into his businesses and strike favorable self-serving deals, whether or not that's what is actually happening.
 

JustenP88

I earned 100 Gamerscore™ for collecting 300 widgets and thereby created Trump's America
This man is beating all the way around that bush.
 

cameron

Member
Over four decades, Democratic and Republican presidents have worked closely with the OGE. Shaub met Barack Obama but never came face to face with Trump, who showed little interest in government ethics and little support for the OGE. Shaub recalled that delegations from around the world had come to learn about the ethics programme and regard it as “the gold standard”.

4-8 years from now, I wonder if the next administration will try to revert back completely and respect the OGE, or will they embrace the "new normal" of Trump's presidency to a certain degree.
 
Not for being a kleptocracy, not by a long shot, for anyone who remembers the Dumbya years (which c'mon, it wasn't that long ago). Ideological purgings, cost-plus contracts, bald-faced lying to the whole world, and anti-intellectualism run amok. Looting the country's coffers for personal gain is old hat. The stories leaking from Iraq about contractor abuse (and they worked quite hard to prevent them from leaking at all) would make anyone with a sense of ethics boil inside out. They set as much as two trillion dollars on fire, if not much more. We'll probably feel the effects of that for the rest of my life, and that was less than a decade ago. If anything, Trump is kind of reassuring in his pettiness -- not only does he undermine his own moves, he lacks the creativity to do anything as audacious as start a war in the Middle East and send Americans to slaughter purely to profit from the destruction a hundred times over. A banker in his/her psychopathy won't even know you exist as you're ruined financially for three generation to generate profits for a fraction of a second. Trump isn't that. Trump is like a five-year-old who only sees the cookie jar. Evil, perhaps, but almost benign in his own myopic stupidity.

That said, I did underestimate Dumbya in one respect -- his folks did see running the Executive as a job. An ideologically driven job, with disastrous results, but they did a lot more governing than I gave them credit for. What's new is that it feels like the anti-intellectual wilful ignorance that hampered America like a cancer has finally reached tipping point and is now a major factor in policy decisions. Dumbya's folks, at least, took some things seriously, and they took the Department of Energy's mission against nuclear threats very seriously (which kind of makes the whole Iraq War even more outrageous, since the DoE knew Iraq had no WMDs). Today, major bureaucracies like the Department of Education and Department of Energy are largely unstaffed, and what few there are have no idea what the agencies even do -- and don't even want to know. This has real-world implications that should keep everyone up at night, it not for the fact that no one's interested in finding out -- they're too busy demonizing government workers as useless.

The greed is kind of beside the point. There's a floor for incompetence if the greed comes from within. A slumlord will make far more money off you than a burglar, but at least has an interest in keeping the place just short of condemned. A thief is there to grab everything in sight and run; what happens to the place afterward is of no concern. Trump was sent to D.C. not by GOP insiders but as a sort of working class coup, a human Molotov cocktail. Not only will he have no fucks to give if the place burns down, he'll actually look good to his supports if he's the one who strikes the match.

I agree with a lot of this - despite other administrations having much deeper, long lasting, awful consequences to their actions in terms of human life and global stability, Trump is making a joke of the office itself.

In a way its so insulting and damaging because when the image and veneer of prestige is wiped away from something like that it makes it difficult for any future administrations to be taken seriously.

Despite how many people feel about Bush, since he took the job seriously, we could see how quickly was the world ready to accept Obama as a legitimate leader... after Trump, I fear that the office itself is damaged in that respect.
 

Wilsongt

Member
Pretty sure the opposite is happening and well publicized so I don't think I could agree with that.

8mykgdu.gif
 

CHC

Member

Go on, junior...

All these juniors conveniently popping up in Trump threads. Hmmmm.

Did you not read his follow up post?

Basic idea is that Trump went into office with a somewhat viable brand and is going to come out so tainted that his name will be ruined. He could have just stayed put and had a good thing going but by putting so much of the spotlight on himself he's going to lose it all for him and his kids.

Not wrong, really. But it also is true that in the short term, this is basically a kleptocracy where he funnels public funds into his pockets in only the most thinly veiled manner.
 

Wilsongt

Member
Did you not read his follow up post?

Basic idea is that Trump went into office with a somewhat viable brand and is going to come out so tainted that his name will be ruined. He could have just stayed put and had a good thing going but by putting so much of the spotlight on himself he's going to lose it all for him and his kids.

Not wrong, really. But it also is true that in the short term, this is basically a kleptocracy where he funnels public funds into his pockets in only the most thinly veiled manner.

He made the post while I was finding a gif lol. I saw his reply.

Anything that destroys the Trump brand is good. Bankrupt the entire family.
 

Brandson

Member
Well Trump wouldn't put himself through the hell of being President to help other people, would he? That would be going way against type. You'd think his rewards for sticking it out must be just ridiculous.
 

theWB27

Member
He completely destroyed the Trump brand. His apartment prices are plumetting and he has lost licenses everywhere. It's possible he used it as a 4 year get richer plan but it's gonna cost him his whole empire at some point in the long run (or not even long at this point). There's a reason his kids despise him for forcing them into politics.

In no way does this explain your previous post.
 

digdug2k

Member
He completely destroyed the Trump brand. His apartment prices are plumetting and he has lost licenses everywhere. It's possible he used it as a 4 year get richer plan but it's gonna cost him his whole empire at some point in the long run (or not even long at this point). There's a reason his kids despise him for forcing them into politics.
I think his kids will be fine. Even if his name goes "down", I'm feeling more and more confident at this point that 2024, if not 2020, is going to give us President Ivanka. Democrats will cheer for it. "At least its not Hillary!"
 

blugbox

Neo Member
Pretty sure the opposite is happening and well publicized so I don't think I could agree with that.

I know you are getting heat from this and I read your follow up.

Yes it is true that outside the WH, his businesses seem to be taking a hit and I'm sure he's causing lasting damage to his name.

This ethics guy is saying that he's using the power from within the WH to actively fund his businesses and people are using is businesses as a WH tool.
 
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