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[angrod14]

At the end of the first game, Joel wipes the Fireflies (including Marlene), saves Ellie and destroys all possibility of a cure. Let's remember Ellie was unconcious during the whole sequence of events. She wasn't asked for her consent, she wasn't given the opportunity to be heard before the procedure. The Fireflies didn't want to take any chances, and wanted to ensure the production of the vaccine at all costs.

When Ellie wakes up, Joel lies to her. The first question is, why? Why not just come clean right there? There are many possible reasons for this, and they all stem from the fact that what Joel feared the most was the possibility of losing Ellie:
a) He was afraid Ellie would want to return to the scene of events;
b) He was afraid Ellie would be pissed about what he did, including viciously killing the woman her own mother entrusted her with (Marlene).

Ironically, both of these ended up happening anyways. Ellie knew right away something was sketchy, and the lie turned into the main conflict between the two characters. The thing that was never convincing to me, was how angry Ellie really got when confirming what she suspected. I mean, the dude literally saved her life.

I know the whole point of their journey was to deliver her to the Fireflies to make the vaccine, but neither of them knew that would require Ellie to be killed. The Fireflies were going to do her really dirty by killing her straight unconcious, without any choice. Yet she gets terminally pissed to Joel because he saved her? Like what the fuck.

At the end of the second game, she claims to Joel: "...my life would've fucking mattered". Yeah biatch, but no one even asked about your opinion before being taken to surgery. Joel couldn't have known what you would've wanted. She seemed to feel she was robbed of something by Joel, that he was selfish, but I never really thought that was a fair treatment for him. Had the scenario played differently and she did consent to the procedure, and he still did what he did (which he probably would've anyways), then he would've been the biatch. I don't know. It's complex. What do you think?

 

[RAL1992]

You don't have a child do you

 

[NeverYouMind]

I think it is bad writing lacking in nuance. I preferred the parody version.

 

[FinalBossWithTheMostPower]

Ellie wanted to be the catalyst for the cure, no matter the outcome.

IIRC she discussed this with Joel during the journey.

He lied because he directly went against her wishes.

He did it because, who the fuck wants to sacrifice a kid for the possibility of a cure...especially after the way his own daughter died.

Was he selfish? Yes. Was he wrong? No.

I probably would've done same thing. In fact when I was Joel, I did.

 

[NeverYouMind]

One thing that the remaster glossed over is how unsterilized and dirty all the equipment was and how Ellie was not the first subject to undergo this procedure without any success in creating a cure.

I would not trust these weekend surgeons to stuff a Thanksgiving turkey, much less perform a brain biopsy.

 

[ProtoByte]

I totally get why Ellie would be very pissed at Joel. At least in concept.

True, her being asleep was convenient for the Fireflies who didn't really want to hear her answer. But neither did Joel. Ultimately, what he did was extremely selfish. Not to say that the fireflies were selfless. They came off as self-righteous and self-aggrandizing.

Problem is that that debate wasn't had in the game at all. Ellie's line is "My life would've mattered. And you took that from me." Somehow, Ellie manages to be narrow and self-centered in the way that she's talking about it, despite having 6 years to process what she had been suspicious of. And it doesn't make sense for her to say all that if she is being selfless.

She doesn't even refer to the clear survivor's guilt she explained at the end of Part I, or invoke anyone else whose life was lost in the journey. She talks about this misplaced messiah shit where all she would've done is given the doctors and soldiers of the Fireflies her blood and flesh. That's if it worked at all. I know Druckmann says that it would've, but I think it was a mistake to say that, in large part because there's no way the characters could know in-universe.

If it's all about me me me for Ellie, maybe she should remember the family and angsty romance she's been enjoying through her adolescence. And she can be grateful for that, and also angry and sad that so many more people don't and won't be able to have that or better because of Joel's choice.

You might say "the script doesn't need her to say that", but I think it does, and even if not, it spends a lot of time saying useless, out of place shit instead.

It extends to Abby too. She's mad because her old man died. It doesn't seem like she cares about anything else in that situation. So, 6 years after the fact, has her friends follow her to assassinate Joel without even asking why he did it or telling him who she is. And after she does it, the game puts us through her low rent retread of Joel's arc, to the point that you'd absolutely believe she'd do exactly what he did for Lev. ??? Might want to examine that in the script? No? Okay.

Nothing of substance gets properly debated, nothing definitive is said. I might respect the simplicity of the dialogue, but it seems more focused on transmitting depression vibes than building characters and story.

 

[cormack12]

..destroys all possibility of a cure.

What do you think?

I don't think that's canon is it? We don't know Ellie is the only immune and there's no guarantee the procedure would have worked.

On the other stuff, I don't get why it would hit that hard. It was clear Ellie didn't believe Joel at the end of TLOU 1. There would be too much other bleakness and work to hold on as long as that without making peace.

 

[Killjoy-NL]

Joel did the right thing.

But I think the main conflict between Ellie and Joel was about him lying while he swore he told the truth. Maybe not even him saving Ellie per se.

 

[Fart Knight]

 

[Guilty_AI]

True reason: She was a teen.

Being real though, the plot in those games was never that great to begin with. What people liked in the first game was their relationship dynamics, which was a proven formula at that point, and the rest was of less importance. The second Druckman wanted to do a Kojima and it just ended up exposing all the weaknesses in the story and writing.

 

[semiconscious]

True reason: She was a teen.

Being real though, the plot in those games was never that great to begin with. What people liked in the first game was their relationship dynamics, which was a proven formula at that point, and largely succeeded. The second Druckman wanted to do a Kojima and it just ended up exposing all the weaknesses in the story.

yep. 'the last of us 2: monday morning quarterbacking the last of us'...

 

[Stooky]

I think it is bad writing lacking in nuance. I preferred the parody version.

 

[angrod14]

I don't think that's canon is it? We don't know Ellie is the only immune and there's no guarantee the procedure would have worked.

In Part II, while Ellie listens to the recordings found in the hospital, it is revealed Jerry was the only doctor who could make the vaccine; at least that's what the Fireflies believed.

 

[GametimeUK]

You don't have a child do you

Neither does Joel.

 

[NeverYouMind]

 

[Doom85]

Ellie flat out says before they met the Fireflies that she had to see this through to the end, because when Joel suggests going back to Tommy’s, Ellie points out that would invalidate all the things they had to do and lose to get this far. Why do you think Joel lied to her? Calling her a bitch over this misses the point. Plus she does begin to forgive him right before TLOU Part 2’s main story begins.

Neither does Joel.

You know what they meant. He was a father (Sara).

 

[bender]

My read on the final scene of the original is that Joel tells Ellie a lie, Ellie knows that Joel is lying but accepts the lie, and the both move forward for their new lives at Tommy's safe haven. Maybe that's a misread on my part as it flies in the opposition to Ellie's angst in the opening hours of the sequel and robs the motivation for Ellie to go back to Utah to discover the "truth". That's part of the reason I found the writing in the sequel to feel so clumsy.

 

[rm082e]

I finally played these games about 18 months and 1 year ago respectively. As a middle age guy with a daughter Ellie's age, they both hit me like a ton of bricks. Loved them both.

 

[cormack12]

In Part II, while Ellie listens to the recordings found in the hospital, it is revealed Jerry was the only doctor who could make the vaccine; at least that's what the Fireflies believed.

Tbh I'd find that a bigger reach than Ellie being the only immune

 

[Sushi_Combo]

You don't have a child do you

Or just the ability to empathize.

 

[K' Dash]

As a father of a baby girl, I know what I would have done.

 

[Ulysses 31]

What works against Ellie is that she said she'd go with Joel wherever he wanted after the hospital visit. This tells me that dying wasn't on her mind when going to that hospital so she's not really in a position to give Joel a hard time that he came to her defence and didn't just assume she was OK with what the Fireflies had in store for her. For the lying though, Joel does deserve getting chewed out for.

I agree Joel shouldn't have lied since looking at what happened, the Fireflies cast the first stone and forced Joel to come to Ellie's defence.

I feel the TLOU2 writing is very biased against Joel with how the prologue is presented(we only see the aftermath with dead Firefly bodies and none of the times they pushed Joel before he finally fought back) and he doesn't provide any missing context to Ellie letting the Fireflies completely off the hook and making himself look more like a butcher. Dude doesn't even get a funeral scene where Ellie tells what he meant to her...


And then there's the issue that TLOU2 makes it seem that Ellie would've been OK leaving Joel without even a goodbye after the all that time she's been trying to get him to see her as a daughter.

 

[angrod14]

My read on the final scene of the original is that Joel tells Ellie a lie, Ellie knows that Joel is lying but accepts the lie, and the both move forward for their new lives at Tommy's safe haven.

I think it's a bit more nuanced than that. She wasn't convinced by what Joel told her, but decided to move on anyways. The suspicion grew over the course of the years and strained the relationship between the two. It all blew up when she finally decided to go to back to the hospital.

 

[ShadyAcshuns]

We don't owe humanity shit.

 

[Fahdis]

We're still discussing this? 2013 was a long time ago.

 

[Majormaxxx]

Part 2 is useless.

First game you save the life of your surrogate daughter. What's there more to explain?

Somehow even Druck doesn't get it.

 

[bender]

I think it's a bit more nuanced than that. She wasn't convinced by what Joel told her, but decided to move on anyways. The suspicion grew over the course of the years and strained the relationship between the two. It all blew up when she finally decided to go to back to the hospital.

Maybe but I think that would be a disservice to Ellie's intellect in the original. It struck me as a retcon of the original in order to give Ellie a vehicle for the story in the second. It's part of bigger problem with the sequel that character motivations and actions are all really ham-fisted which ruins some of the existing cast and makes it difficult to connect with any of the new-comers. Further, everyone's decision making as a whole should make one question how any of the cast survived in the first place.

 

[Stooky]

OP: Hmm In football with in the 10 yard line should you run or pass for the TD?
NeverYouMind: FootBall sucks watch my YouTube of Tom Brady taking a poop.

 

[RAL1992]

Or just the ability to empathize.

If you don't have a kid, don't assume the emotions of somebody that does, if that was the case you would know the levels of emotion and how far you would go for them, Joel associates Ellie as such ... Quite simple

 

[FunkMiller]

My read on the final scene of the original is that Joel tells Ellie a lie, Ellie knows that Joel is lying but accepts the lie, and the both move forward for their new lives at Tommy's safe haven. Maybe that's a misread on my part as it flies in the opposition to Ellie's angst in the opening hours of the sequel and robs the motivation for Ellie to go back to Utah to discover the "truth". That's part of the reason I found the writing in the sequel to feel so clumsy.

Your read is exactly right… and making a sequel did indeed undercut the ending of the first game. Everything about Ellie in game one tells us she was smart enough to know that Joel was lying. Thats the beauty of that ending.

 

[angrod14]

If you don't have a kid, don't assume the emotions of somebody that does, if that was the case you would know the levels of emotion and how far you would go for them, Joel associates Ellie as such ... Quite simple

I understand why Joel did what he did. I completely get it. That's a subjective assesment of the situation. All I'm saying is, if Ellie did consent to the procedure (which she wasn't given the choice to), then it really wasn't his decision to make. He isn't even her father, even though emotionally and psychologically he placed her in that spot. That's an objective assesment.

 

[NeverYouMind]

OP: Hmm In football with in the 10 yard line should you run or pass for the TD?

Why would you even consider a pass play in this situation?

 

[angrod14]

Your read is exactly right… and making a sequel did indeed undercut the ending of the first game. Everything about Ellie in game one tells us she was smart enough to know that Joel was lying. Thats the beauty of that ending.

I don't think she knew the extents of the lie. She knew he was very, very likely lying, but she couldn't know exactly what happened. That's what was eating her mind over the years. When she discovered he basically mass murdered everyone, removing any possibility of a vaccine, she broke.

 

[cormack12]

We're still discussing this? 2013 was a long time ago.

Yeah but we're due another remake soon

 

[TGO]

The original had a simple story but it was told in graceful way and ended with a crowning point
The look on Ellie face as Joel swears he has told her all she's needs to know.
Then the pause and..

Fades to black
One and done.
It was opinion back then by many and it still my opinion now.
TLOU was a one entry story that didn't need a sequel because they would have to dig really fucking deep to justify it and be very careful with the story they wanted to add to it.
And I'll leave it at that.

 

[DAHGAMING]

If I was in Ellies position and found out what Joel done I would be been high fiveing the fuck out of him for saving me, fuck all this saving us dirty human cunts, lets live the life we deserve, Ellie is just a fucking do gooder, ungreatfull little shit.

 

[EverydayBeast]

TLOU3 will be an opportunity.

 

[Guilty_AI]

TLOU3 will be an opportunity.

for zombie Joel?

 

[bitbydeath]

Part 2 is useless.

First game you save the life of your surrogate daughter. What's there more to explain?

Somehow even Druck doesn't get it.

TLOU2 is the equivalent of a direct to TV sequel, and i’m fine ignoring it as non-cannon.

 

[Angry_Megalodon]

I understand why Joel did what he did. I completely get it. That's a subjective assesment of the situation. All I'm saying is, if Ellie did consent to the procedure (which she wasn't given the choice to), then it really wasn't his decision to make. He isn't even her father, even though emotionally and psychologically he placed her in that spot. That's an objective assesment.

TLOU 1 is Joel's redemption journey. He couldn't lose a daughter for a second time. Again, to the fucking military. "Humanity" did nothing for him or his daughter. The only morally correct choice for a father (and for an actual human) is to do what he did. I'm not a father myself but the thought of sacrificing a beloved one "for the greater good" would be the action of a machine. But we are humans.

Ellie's anger is due to her lack of vital purpose, not Joel's actions. She's angry at herself. At the end of the second game, she finds out that Joel was right and thanks to that she spares Abby. Only by doing that she may start over without burdens.

The same applies to Abby. The three characters of TLOU have exactly the same journey, that's why I never understood the hatred against either of them while loving the others.

 

[DragoonKain]

Ellie felt incredible survivor's guilt because of Riley dying and her living and she wanted to be a cure to save people. She thought that could be her purpose and it would kind of undo a wrong of Riley dying and her living. Joel took that choice away from her. Sure, the Fireflies didn't give her a choice either, but Joel was like a father to her. Having a father figure lie to you is much worse than people who you aren't nearly as close to. They grew so close and having someone that close lie to you feels like the ultimate betrayal. But it's also understandable why he did it. He viewed Ellie as a daughter and would kill as many as he had to save her. It's not easy to just say ok I'm going to allow someone I love like a daughter to sacrifice themselves.

 

[InterMusketeer]

I always found it funny Ellie goes off by herself and travels across (multiple?) state(s) just to check if Joel is lying to her. We're talking a world filled with deadly zombies, spores, slavers and cannibals, crumbling structures and all kinds of other dangers. And she just casually returns to the hospital on horseback. And she succeeds and returns too! It nullifies everything we've went through in the first game and turns it all into one big joke.

That's par for the course in Part 2 though. They constantly break immersion. After giving up on her revenge, Ellie starts living on the most peaceful farm you've ever seen. Before, she lived in a walled city that was heavily guarded, and they went on regular missions to scout the area for potential danger. Not necessary anymore apparently! Just let two young women live by themselves with a baby on a huge piece of property they can't possibly protect. Completely logical in a zombie apocalypse.

The writing in Part 2 is just inconsistent with the first game, all so Druckmann could fit his weird revenge story into this pre-existing world. It didn't turn out well.

 

[angrod14]

Ellie felt incredible survivor's guilt because of Riley dying and her living and she wanted to be a cure to save people. She thought that could be her purpose and it would kind of undo a wrong of Riley dying and her living. Joel took that choice away from her.

This is key. I completely forgot about the Riley event. Makes a lot of sense.

 

[diffusionx]

I always felt like TLOU really was not fully honest with its premise. Like, if you are living in a comfy house playing your game on a big screen TV, with tons of food and everything taken care of, you can take this individualistic mindset and say what Joel did was a no-brainer. But that is not the world that they inhabited. We are talking about a world where Ellie had literally the most valuable thing on planet earth, and they have the possibility of figuring out if it can be replicated. Like, he could just have easily have said, you know, my daughter died from this, and if Ellie's sacrifice means other daughters won't die from it, it's worth it.

Similar to the way that everyone was just cool with her being a lesbian in the 2nd game and throwing away bigot sandwiches. Like, at some point, somebody is going to wonder if the immunity is transferrable to a child.

 

[RAL1992]

I understand why Joel did what he did. I completely get it. That's a subjective assesment of the situation. All I'm saying is, if Ellie did consent to the procedure (which she wasn't given the choice to), then it really wasn't his decision to make. He isn't even her father, even though emotionally and psychologically he placed her in that spot. That's an objective assesment.

Also the case that Ellie didn't know the procedure would kill her, she too was lied to by Marlene, make whatever timeline you want up in your head, girl gets lied to, man who becomes father figure takes action... Simple.

 

[Unknown?]

I always found it funny Ellie goes off by herself and travels across (multiple?) state(s) just to check if Joel is lying to her. We're talking a world filled with deadly zombies, spores, slavers and cannibals, crumbling structures and all kinds of other dangers. And she just casually returns to the hospital on horseback. And she succeeds and returns too! It nullifies everything we've went through in the first game and turns it all into one big joke.

That's par for the course in Part 2 though. They constantly break immersion. After giving up on her revenge, Ellie starts living on the most peaceful farm you've ever seen. Before, she lived in a walled city that was heavily guarded, and they went on regular missions to scout the area for potential danger. Not necessary anymore apparently! Just let two young women live by themselves with a baby on a huge piece of property they can't possibly protect. Completely logical in a zombie apocalypse.

The writing in Part 2 is just inconsistent with the first game, all so Druckmann could fit his weird revenge story into this pre-existing world. It didn't turn out well.

Yeah always hated how they just lived out on a farm. Made no sense at all!

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

I'm just going to say something that I was thinking about it.

With TLoU P1-2 we have three main characters. Each has a different worldview:

1. Joel (Individualism): disdain/resentment for law and order-Institutions, government. > Fuck humanity... it's about survival.

2. Ellie (adolescent naivety): longs for a past she didn't live in. > She wants to change things to bring back the old way of living

3. Abby (community/society): actively working to solve the zombie issue (yes I said zombie) > She wants to fix the world or rebuild it for a bright future

It's a damn shame the second game doesn't explore these ideas to create a more complex and sophisticated narrative/conflict between these characters.

 

[Generic]

At the end of the first game, Joel wipes the Fireflies (including Marlene), saves Ellie and destroys all possibility of a cure. Let's remember Ellie was unconcious during the whole sequence of events. She wasn't asked for her consent, she wasn't given the opportunity to be heard before the procedure. The Fireflies didn't want to take any chances, and wanted to ensure the production of the vaccine at all costs.

When Ellie wakes up, Joel lies to her. The first question is, why? Why not just come clean right there? There are many possible reasons for this, and they all stem from the fact that what Joel feared the most was the possibility of losing Ellie:
a) He was afraid Ellie would want to return to the scene of events;
b) He was afraid Ellie would be pissed about what he did, including viciously killing the woman her own mother entrusted her with (Marlene).

Ironically, both of these ended up happening anyways. Ellie knew right away something was sketchy, and the lie turned into the main conflict between the two characters. The thing that was never convincing to me, was how angry Ellie really got when confirming what she suspected. I mean, the dude literally saved her life.

I know the whole point of their journey was to deliver her to the Fireflies to make the vaccine, but neither of them knew that would require Ellie to be killed. The Fireflies were going to do her really dirty by killing her straight unconcious, without any choice. Yet she gets terminally pissed to Joel because he saved her? Like what the fuck.

At the end of the second game, she claims to Joel: "...my life would've fucking mattered". Yeah biatch, but no one even asked about your opinion before being taken to surgery. Joel couldn't have known what you would've wanted. She seemed to feel she was robbed of something by Joel, that he was selfish, but I never really thought that was a fair treatment for him. Had the scenario played differently and she did consent to the procedure, and he still did what he did (which he probably would've anyways), then he would've been the biatch. I don't know. It's complex. What do you think?

IIRC at the end of the first game she said she would give her life to save others. Joel already knew that though, which is why he lied to her.

 

[Garibaldi]

There was no cure. It was just some vague hope the fireflies clung to because society and humanity was fucked and they needed something, anything to give them a reason to keep fighting.

Joel wasn't prepared to sacrifice his new reason for living (both selfishly and empathetically) to give these people a reason to go on.

I'll not comment on part 2 cos I've not played it enough times to cement my own thoughts on the characters ultimate motivations, but the above it largely what I took from the first game.

 

[squarealex]

Abby did nothing wrong.