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RUMOR: Amazons Android console to launch this year priced below $300
- Thread starter chadskin
- Start date
PastorOfMuppets
Banned
There isn't anything to indicate that Android can only run shitty mobile F2P games guys. Android is the operating system. Windows is an operating system. The XBone, PS4 and WiiU all have operating systems. The hardware is what determines what games will run on it - not the operating system.
Android phones have a huge variance in hardware specs so games built for the mobile platform tend to go for a low baseline standard. Amazon wants to push its own ecosystem so I wouldn't be surprised to see an FPS or something on it.
Android phones have a huge variance in hardware specs so games built for the mobile platform tend to go for a low baseline standard. Amazon wants to push its own ecosystem so I wouldn't be surprised to see an FPS or something on it.
Truespeed
Member
Knowing what you're talking about is even more awesome.
I agree that pricing is really important. If the link in the OP is accurate, then Amazon are going to use a low-cost strategy ($199-249) to enter the console space. I think Microsoft will survive (and remain in the console space) due to Xbox Live, their very deep pockets and their desire to own the household. Stranger things have happened though.
Regardless of Nintendo's desire to remain in the console space, if the market doesn't support their console then Nintendo aren't left with a lot of options. Everything is about eco-systems and content, and if you can't get both of those right then you're not going to be around for long.
OmegaDL50
Member
The Nvidia Tegra K1 does exactly this
http://images.anandtech.com/doci/7622/Screen Shot 2014-01-06 at 6.18.35 AM.png
In fact early benchmarks indicate the K1 even matches up with some desktop Intel Haswell CPUs.
Of course most of this has to do with the fact that this using the GPU tech from Kepler, instead of just a increase over the Tegra 4.
If Amazon's console is in fact using the Tegra K1 at all means it's graphics potential isn't something to be ignored like the Ouya is.
Besides Amazon is by far a much more credible then Ouya Inc,.
Mobile technology is rapidly improving, hell the fact that Nvidia's Maxwell GPU platform is being designed first as a mobile graphics chip which will be the SAME one being used for it's Desktop GPU solutions. Having tech exceeding PS3 / 360 / Wii U but in the palm of your hands is no longer out of reach.
Hell even the PS4 and XB1 AMD Jaguar based chip is based on mobile tech.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/7622/nvidia-tegra-k1/3
Monty Mole
Member
This could disrupt the market. A low(ish)-cost, small form-factor, disc-less smart TV console that plays Wii U-level games, but instead of just relying on some shovelware to complete the games line-up, they're investing in crucial first party content to get the ball rolling.
The real question is whether low-cost and small form-factor is enough to make a difference. I mean, PS3 Slim offers far better value, media and smart TV services, and a massive AAA games library. But then it isn't new and shiny and constantly at the forefront of Amazon's web-site like the Amazon device will be.
What is clear however, is that Microsoft's new box will seem even more over-engineered, bulky and pricey than it does already if this box hits and becomes a success.
The real question is whether low-cost and small form-factor is enough to make a difference. I mean, PS3 Slim offers far better value, media and smart TV services, and a massive AAA games library. But then it isn't new and shiny and constantly at the forefront of Amazon's web-site like the Amazon device will be.
What is clear however, is that Microsoft's new box will seem even more over-engineered, bulky and pricey than it does already if this box hits and becomes a success.
One small problem. A simple matter of needing over $12 Billion to buy Nintendo in the first place.
Brad Grenz
Member
That (nVidia provided) graphic is incredibly misleading. It ignores the vast majority of the PS3's CPU power for one, by completely excluding the SPEs. The CPU performance quoted is only integer, which has always been the weakest aspect for both the 360 and PS3. It also gets the PS3's memory bandwidth wrong and attempts to downplay the 360's embedded memory. In fact, the memory bandwidth limitations of the Tegra will severely limit its ability to exploit any theoretical compute advantage it may have.
CaptainSlow
Member
Here's my take., and I could be dead wrong, but I think that If this Amazon box isn't as powerful and cheaper than an Xbox One or PlayStation 4, then it's dead on arrival.
If it's as powerful as a Xbox 360, PlayStation 3 or even a Wii U, then what's the point? If the Amazon box is $199 or $299 or hell, even just $99, I can get a new 360 for $169 even a used one for $99 at GameStop and have a massive catalog of games to buy that would dwarf ANY amount of games Amazon puts out or hopefully gets ports of and that's even IF publishers support it. Publishers don't support the OUYA (the most recent Android console) or the Wii U, the most recent HD console that's similar to the PS360 and the Wii U has already sold millions of consoles and I can't see the Amazon box selling that much.
Another problem is it's just damn hard to break into the console market these days. The most recent console maker, Microsoft, spent BILLIONS AND BILLIONS of dollars in R&D for the Xbox and even more $$$ in marketing just to be dwarfed by the PlayStation 2. The only reason Microsoft didn't go under and are still making games and consoles is because no other company, other than Apple, has more money in the bank to just write checks for. Plus, Microsoft already had the people necessary to make something like a game console. Sony is a hardware company and Microsoft is a software company. Amazon is a retail company primarily. I don't know if Amazon has the funds or manpower to be able to be able to squeeze itself in the crowded console market. (Sure, they can afford a small console definitely, I'm talking about a console that's on par with the current gen of consoles.)
Also, a third issue that's not as important as the 2 above is that fact that this console is from Amazon. I work at Target right now and the higher ups will tell you that Target's #1 competition is NOT Wal-Mart or Costco, but Amazon.com. Amazon is very slowly draining the profits or big box retail stores. Retail stores, however, is still insanely important. The majority of Americans still do their shopping at brick and mortar stores and none of these stores and going to willingly and gladly put a product by their #1 in their store. I can't go into Target and buy a Wal-Mart gift card and I sure as shit wouldn't be able to get an Amazon.com game console. Amazon can't even get a profit off of their Kindle product whose sails can barely make a sent in the tablet market so I doubt they could with a console with 3 powerhouse companies already controlling that space.
TL
R - Making a console that will sell today takes way too much money and the console market is already full.
If it's as powerful as a Xbox 360, PlayStation 3 or even a Wii U, then what's the point? If the Amazon box is $199 or $299 or hell, even just $99, I can get a new 360 for $169 even a used one for $99 at GameStop and have a massive catalog of games to buy that would dwarf ANY amount of games Amazon puts out or hopefully gets ports of and that's even IF publishers support it. Publishers don't support the OUYA (the most recent Android console) or the Wii U, the most recent HD console that's similar to the PS360 and the Wii U has already sold millions of consoles and I can't see the Amazon box selling that much.
Another problem is it's just damn hard to break into the console market these days. The most recent console maker, Microsoft, spent BILLIONS AND BILLIONS of dollars in R&D for the Xbox and even more $$$ in marketing just to be dwarfed by the PlayStation 2. The only reason Microsoft didn't go under and are still making games and consoles is because no other company, other than Apple, has more money in the bank to just write checks for. Plus, Microsoft already had the people necessary to make something like a game console. Sony is a hardware company and Microsoft is a software company. Amazon is a retail company primarily. I don't know if Amazon has the funds or manpower to be able to be able to squeeze itself in the crowded console market. (Sure, they can afford a small console definitely, I'm talking about a console that's on par with the current gen of consoles.)
Also, a third issue that's not as important as the 2 above is that fact that this console is from Amazon. I work at Target right now and the higher ups will tell you that Target's #1 competition is NOT Wal-Mart or Costco, but Amazon.com. Amazon is very slowly draining the profits or big box retail stores. Retail stores, however, is still insanely important. The majority of Americans still do their shopping at brick and mortar stores and none of these stores and going to willingly and gladly put a product by their #1 in their store. I can't go into Target and buy a Wal-Mart gift card and I sure as shit wouldn't be able to get an Amazon.com game console. Amazon can't even get a profit off of their Kindle product whose sails can barely make a sent in the tablet market so I doubt they could with a console with 3 powerhouse companies already controlling that space.
TL
R - Making a console that will sell today takes way too much money and the console market is already full.
OmegaDL50
Member
That chart from over at Anandtech is only covering the GPU capabilities, there is other pages that get into the CPU limitations.
But from the perspective of just rendering capabilities from the GPU side of the Tegra K1, I feel it should be pointed out that mobile graphics tech, if Nvidia's Maxwell is anything to be considered is something not to scoff and simply ignore.
http://wccftech.com/tegra-k1-superchip-benchmarks-revealed-4-times-faster-tegra-4/
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/lenovo-thinkvision-28-nvidia-tegra-k1-android,25733.html
The closest reference of the PS4 / XB1 AMD Jaguar SoC is the Kabini
http://www.anandtech.com/show/6974/amd-kabini-review
Which if we go strictly by the numbers isn't impressive, however with masssive memory bandwidths to consider (and pool of 8GB of memory to play with)
http://www.anandtech.com/show/6972/xbox-one-hardware-compared-to-playstation-4/2
It's not something that can just easily be ignored in terms of what Amazon plans if they decide to use either the K1 or even Maxwell for a graphics solution.
Of course this entirely dependent on IF Amazon decides goes in this direction.
The only thing in that Anandtech article in regards to the Denver CPU (bar a retelling of a few specs) is some speculation based off a fucking semiaccurate article!
It could work. I mean they would have to really put in some money into this if they actually want to go head to head....to head with the big 3. I mean all 3 ate a nice loss for years and that was just launching it. I'm not even counting fuck ups like Sony and the ps3 launch years.
There has to be some dedication from then since they got Double Helix and awhile back were looking for FPS devs that made titles like Halo. I think they really should have been a publisher instead but well see.
There has to be some dedication from then since they got Double Helix and awhile back were looking for FPS devs that made titles like Halo. I think they really should have been a publisher instead but well see.
It is a long term play. It took 15 years for netflix to kill blockbuster. itunes to become bigger than walmart. Same way, what Amazon is doing now will impact how market is in 2025, 2030.
Slow start with 1+M consoles now. Once people realize the value and convenience it can become a second console. Then become the dominant player. Lot of people never fully relied on netflix first, they had both netflix and blockbuster.. slowly the balance titled and netflix wiped out blockbuster.
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
does kindle OS play normal android games or is that too far gone at this point since they based it on an old version of android?
disastermouse
Banned
Never underestimate Amazon's ability to keep running with a loss. Most companies can't do it but for some reason Amazon seems impervious to such things.
They have a billboard a thousand miles high, they sell their products at bafflingly low prices, and before Christmas I don't think there's another website that gets as much traffic.
They have a billboard a thousand miles high, they sell their products at bafflingly low prices, and before Christmas I don't think there's another website that gets as much traffic.
Here's my take., and I could be dead wrong, but I think that If this Amazon box isn't as powerful and cheaper than an Xbox One or PlayStation 4, then it's dead on arrival.
If it's as powerful as a Xbox 360, PlayStation 3 or even a Wii U, then what's the point? If the Amazon box is $199 or $299 or hell, even just $99, I can get a new 360 for $169 even a used one for $99 at GameStop and have a massive catalog of games to buy that would dwarf ANY amount of games Amazon puts out or hopefully gets ports of and that's even IF publishers support it. Publishers don't support the OUYA (the most recent Android console) or the Wii U, the most recent HD console that's similar to the PS360 and the Wii U has already sold millions of consoles and I can't see the Amazon box selling that much.
Another problem is it's just damn hard to break into the console market these days. The most recent console maker, Microsoft, spent BILLIONS AND BILLIONS of dollars in R&D for the Xbox and even more $$$ in marketing just to be dwarfed by the PlayStation 2. The only reason Microsoft didn't go under and are still making games and consoles is because no other company, other than Apple, has more money in the bank to just write checks for. Plus, Microsoft already had the people necessary to make something like a game console. Sony is a hardware company and Microsoft is a software company. Amazon is a retail company primarily. I don't know if Amazon has the funds or manpower to be able to be able to squeeze itself in the crowded console market. (Sure, they can afford a small console definitely, I'm talking about a console that's on par with the current gen of consoles.)
Also, a third issue that's not as important as the 2 above is that fact that this console is from Amazon. I work at Target right now and the higher ups will tell you that Target's #1 competition is NOT Wal-Mart or Costco, but Amazon.com. Amazon is very slowly draining the profits or big box retail stores. Retail stores, however, is still insanely important. The majority of Americans still do their shopping at brick and mortar stores and none of these stores and going to willingly and gladly put a product by their #1 in their store. I can't go into Target and buy a Wal-Mart gift card and I sure as shit wouldn't be able to get an Amazon.com game console. Amazon can't even get a profit off of their Kindle product whose sails can barely make a sent in the tablet market so I doubt they could with a console with 3 powerhouse companies already controlling that space.
TL
I disagree they need to make the Kindle Box as powerful as the PS4/XB1. Because it's probably going to be more than just games. Amazon can sell e-books, music, movies - the box can also become a shopping-on-your-tv hub and general entertainment device.
As far as games are concerned they need to make sure it's not just lololol Android phone games on tv. If their OS is Android based, then it'll be easy for a lot of devs to develop for it. I can also see a bunch of mid tier/indie PC games being ported over for it - think Trine 2, Rogue Legacy, etc. There's a ton of those kind of games on Steam which people like and buy. If the machine proves popular enough I don't see why it can't eventually get support from bigger publishers.
IdreamofHIME
Member
This seems like a great way to lose a bunch of money.
H_Prestige
Banned
If it's just going to offer Android games for your TV, no one will give a shit.
Synth_floyd
Banned
It needs to be $99 and have a good controller and have good games. Otherwise, it's DOA.
If they are looking to compete with Sony and MS then the specs under the hood have to be a lot higher. Just because it's Android doesn't mean it has to be another Ouya clone. If they can beef up the internal and triple AAA style games come out it could be a success. A lot of questions still have to be answered before jumping to conclusions.
Keep in mind that Amazon just purchasedd Double Helix. What if games like Killer Instinct were on a $299 android console? Would people buy it then? Amazon isn't a kickstarter company, they're a fortune 100 company that knows what they're doing.
Keep in mind that Amazon just purchasedd Double Helix. What if games like Killer Instinct were on a $299 android console? Would people buy it then? Amazon isn't a kickstarter company, they're a fortune 100 company that knows what they're doing.
Yankee Ruin X
Member
Is there any reason that this couldn't just be a streaming box, maybe built to view up to 4k streams or something? Amazon has loads of streaming experience with Lovefilm so what's stopping them from offering a game streaming service, also they have cloud servers and tech too don't they?
I know everyone here likes to joke about the "infinite power of the cloud" but maybe Amazon actually has built something that could work like Playstation Now is going to. Maybe they will just run PC games through the service or something to give them a huge back catalogue off the bat and then add some exclusive and original titles. They could just be using Android as a frontend to the service so you have access to certain compatible apps from day one.
Just rambling now but is there any real reason why Amazon don't have something like this in the pipeline?
I know everyone here likes to joke about the "infinite power of the cloud" but maybe Amazon actually has built something that could work like Playstation Now is going to. Maybe they will just run PC games through the service or something to give them a huge back catalogue off the bat and then add some exclusive and original titles. They could just be using Android as a frontend to the service so you have access to certain compatible apps from day one.
Just rambling now but is there any real reason why Amazon don't have something like this in the pipeline?
It essentially plays normal apps, but the Google Play store isn't available on it. That's always been the point of the Amazon App Store.
Not sure how easy side-loading is?
jhmtehgamr20xx
Banned
If anything, Sony's shown that you can make an extremely powerful system with a relativley modest budget, if you're smart enough about what's going to be inside of it. Them being a hardware company was massively beneficial in that regard.
Amazon lacks that hardware experience, but I'm pretty sure they have the money to make a comparably powerful system on a similar budget if they have the right people on board.
This argument falls apart when you realize people on this very forum are paying attention via posting about it.
Depending on how powerful this Android box is, it'd hurt Sony a lot less. In fact if (and that's a MASSIVE "if") Amazon's console takes off rocket-style, Sony's in a much better position to ride that momentum than Microsoft, similar to MS riding the Wii's momentum in the early half of last gen.
If this system's going to be very multimedia-focused, I think Amazon's going to try and ride off PS4's momentum and position it as a supplemental 2nd console. MS is priced too high to get in the position of having that power and even if they did, I think Amazon's more threatened by MS than Sony so whatever they try doing is going to make sure it doesn't indirectly benefit the XBO, i.e piggybacking off its sales momentum.
Suzushiiro
Banned
As others have stated, this isn't going to be another Ouya, it's going to be another Wii U- too expensive for the casual market, too underpowered for the hardcore market. And if Nintendo can't keep a console like that afloat with its own software, there's no fucking way Amazon will be able to pull it off.
Anything can happen, though, so maybe I'll be surprised. But as a general rule, you only get a real chance at breaking into the console industry when your competitors are fucking it up (see: PS1 vs Saturn/N64, 360 vs PS3,) and PS4/XBone are doing pretty well at the moment.
Anything can happen, though, so maybe I'll be surprised. But as a general rule, you only get a real chance at breaking into the console industry when your competitors are fucking it up (see: PS1 vs Saturn/N64, 360 vs PS3,) and PS4/XBone are doing pretty well at the moment.
Baron_Calamity
Member
Amazon could buy nintendo and have it sent anywhere for free shipping.
Curry-Hakase
Member
Flappy bird will make a return and will be the exclusive killer app for this console. Believe.
H_Prestige
Banned
The games being demoed are phone games.
Dehumanizer
Member
wat
$300 seems like a strange price for a new console. More power than you need for mobile games but not enough for next gen games. Should be able to run current gen stuff but why would anyone choose it over a PS3/360 which both have incredible libraries and plenty of media features. Plus I have a hard time seeing them getting much 3rd party support from traditional console devs.
I dunno, it's tough to write them off since they're Amazon and the purchase of Double Helix shows they are pretty serious about this, but I just don't see any room in the market for them at the moment.
I dunno, it's tough to write them off since they're Amazon and the purchase of Double Helix shows they are pretty serious about this, but I just don't see any room in the market for them at the moment.
I find it amazing how few people seem to get it. I understand a bit of "defensiveness" but the arguments against are largely complete misunderstandings or reductions about what this seems to be shaping up to be. In any case if Amazon said they were jumping into my market I'd probably be very nervous because they have a long track record of industry disruption. Apple hates them, Google hates them, Microsoft hates them, Walmart hates them and it's because they either over take of significant devalue long-standing businesses. If you were around 15 years ago the arguments against MS were largely the same.
This doesn't guarantee success but to predict stuff about it it's good to have a full picture of what's going on.
So it's just another Ouya?
These are ridiculous statements. I mean yeah if Wikipad is the equivalent of a Kindle Fire. On a spec-side this will likely be high-end mobile, even with a year or two gap that's a substantial power difference. But also Amazon has a large dedicated hardware team which will probably produce a much higher quality device and sell under content subsidization. But overall Ouya had no ecosystem, Amazon has a massive one. If you use Amazon's offerings there's likely going to be reason enough to own it as much or more than Apple users and Apple TV.
But the graphics will suck...
Only 3 kinds of people still think graphics matter. Digital Foundry, NeoGaf and Nvidia. You don't see it often because of budget constraints but mobile SoCs are pretty powerful. If this gets a 2014 SoC you're looking at 360/PS3/WiiU grade stuff. More than enough for most people and what will likely be a pretty cheap device.
This doesn't mean they may not explore dedicated GPUs in conjunction with an ARM chip or something either but I wouldn't discount it. Also, there will be yearly upgrades, count on it.
Could it use a Tegra K1?
Yes but unlikely. More likely a Qualcomm chip. Probably an S805 if it launches before Q3.
Why bother?
More content for Amazon, more users for Amazon. Console style games are a differentiator in the mobile market. If Amazon gets an early lead then it's much harder for Apple or Google to keep up and makes Amazon's App Store more viable and more prominent for developers. It makes it easier to sell movies/tv shows/music and Prime content.
Why not leverage other platforms?
They already do that and will continue to do so. Like Kindle Fire this just pushes more people directly into Amazon rather than have other 1st parties dictate rules and fees while giving their own content top billing.
Who wants to play mobile games on their TV?
They don't. The whole reason Amazon bought Double Helix and is recruiting other console devs is because they know they need dedicated TV apps and that first-party is important especially if Apple or Google try to get in.
Android sucks...
Unless you are a developer Android means Google's Android UI and this is not that. Amazon brands their fork of Android as Fire OS. Currently it works through Android API layer 17 but from a consumer standpoint it's not Android. Android doesn't dictate what type of apps it supports either. Mainly Android is here to make development easy and cross platform so you could port to a Kindle Fire or from a Kindle Fire, phone or other Android device.
Can't they do some sort of game streaming?
Yes. They announced their AppStream service last year which does this. Seems likely they will leverage it.
They don't have PSN/XBL...
Amazon has a set of APIs called Amazon Gamecircle which are platform-agnostic ways of doing achievements, leaderboards and cloud saves. It's likely if real-time voice or matchmaking is desired they'll build those in to.
This doesn't guarantee success but to predict stuff about it it's good to have a full picture of what's going on.
So it's just another Ouya?
These are ridiculous statements. I mean yeah if Wikipad is the equivalent of a Kindle Fire. On a spec-side this will likely be high-end mobile, even with a year or two gap that's a substantial power difference. But also Amazon has a large dedicated hardware team which will probably produce a much higher quality device and sell under content subsidization. But overall Ouya had no ecosystem, Amazon has a massive one. If you use Amazon's offerings there's likely going to be reason enough to own it as much or more than Apple users and Apple TV.
But the graphics will suck...
Only 3 kinds of people still think graphics matter. Digital Foundry, NeoGaf and Nvidia. You don't see it often because of budget constraints but mobile SoCs are pretty powerful. If this gets a 2014 SoC you're looking at 360/PS3/WiiU grade stuff. More than enough for most people and what will likely be a pretty cheap device.
This doesn't mean they may not explore dedicated GPUs in conjunction with an ARM chip or something either but I wouldn't discount it. Also, there will be yearly upgrades, count on it.
Could it use a Tegra K1?
Yes but unlikely. More likely a Qualcomm chip. Probably an S805 if it launches before Q3.
Why bother?
More content for Amazon, more users for Amazon. Console style games are a differentiator in the mobile market. If Amazon gets an early lead then it's much harder for Apple or Google to keep up and makes Amazon's App Store more viable and more prominent for developers. It makes it easier to sell movies/tv shows/music and Prime content.
Why not leverage other platforms?
They already do that and will continue to do so. Like Kindle Fire this just pushes more people directly into Amazon rather than have other 1st parties dictate rules and fees while giving their own content top billing.
Who wants to play mobile games on their TV?
They don't. The whole reason Amazon bought Double Helix and is recruiting other console devs is because they know they need dedicated TV apps and that first-party is important especially if Apple or Google try to get in.
Android sucks...
Unless you are a developer Android means Google's Android UI and this is not that. Amazon brands their fork of Android as Fire OS. Currently it works through Android API layer 17 but from a consumer standpoint it's not Android. Android doesn't dictate what type of apps it supports either. Mainly Android is here to make development easy and cross platform so you could port to a Kindle Fire or from a Kindle Fire, phone or other Android device.
Can't they do some sort of game streaming?
Yes. They announced their AppStream service last year which does this. Seems likely they will leverage it.
They don't have PSN/XBL...
Amazon has a set of APIs called Amazon Gamecircle which are platform-agnostic ways of doing achievements, leaderboards and cloud saves. It's likely if real-time voice or matchmaking is desired they'll build those in to.
infiniteloop
Member
Yeah, people are very blinkered. This isn't going to be flappy bird and candy crush on a TV, it might take a while for devs to get going, but I'm sure they'll be a good amount of "real" games.
Personally, I'm more interested in what Apple's doing with the Apple TV, but I expect it to be a similar product.
Baron_Calamity
Member
Itunes sells more music than Walmart.
Agree that a cheap wiiu grade thing with good first party and decent third party with amazon offerings could have potential at teh 150 to 200 range . (otherwise il just go get a ps3 or xbox).
but yeah nope lot more than 3 kinds of ppl think graphics matter ... pretty sure the 7.2 million ppl didnt just comprise neogaf digital foundry and nvidia.
well if it does nintendo have no one to blame but themselves ....
In ways to justify next-gen there's more than graphics. I honestly don't think that's why most people decided to pick up those systems though it factors in.
Makes your only 3 types of people argument a nonsense though.
In ways to justify next gen there is more than graphics .......... but it's a big factor, downplaying to suit your argument makes for a weak argument.
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