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[Log4Girlz]

Two ways I can look at it.

1. Most overall sales during a generation
2. Most overall profit made

Sometimes in an industry there is a market leader in sales, but then there's some other company pulling in the real cash (Say, like Apple in the smartphone market).

Wii owned that generation.

 

[Opiate]

I'm sure there's more people that feel the opposite. Kind of implied with Wii U being a massive flop. Although part of the reason it's a failure is because it's just a bad console, another large part is, in my opinion, people were disappointed in Wii and Nintendo in general after Wii. Sure, my source is The People That I Know, which I don't expect to stand up in a war crimes trial. But I definitely think there's validity to the idea that Nintendo sacrificed long term sustainability for short term success with Wii. It's a system that was sold on the cheap with a gimmick that ended up damaging their brand power among the type of people who would typically have supported Wii U (like me).

You're explicitly projecting on to people what you personally believe. Stick to objective metrics, rather than seek out some subjective way to claim the Wii really lost in your heart.

 

[pslong009]

Sometimes I wonder how Pachter has a job as an industry analyst, and how it's possible that there's no one out there that's better.

Then I read threads like this, and understand why.

 

[Artorias]

Wii won in the sense that a Toyota Corolla sells more than a sports car.

The Wii appealed to families, kids and casual gamers. It hit a demographic Microsoft and Sony considers a secondary concern.

The fact that the Wii was successful with a crowd that normally doesn't buy video games was both a success and a failure. The success was that it created a short term huge burst in sales and converted non-gamers into gamers. The failure is that crowd that bought the Wii wasn't loyal and moved on to casual experiences on their cell phones and never bought another console.

It temporary inflated video game sales numbers and hurt the industry. Nintendo further alienated the core audience and now they have backed themselves in a corner.

Was it worth it to win one generation when you potentially damaged the company beyond repair in the long run?

...Probably not, but they still won last gen.

 

[Futureman]

Nintendo's situation is very interesting to me. Wii amazing success, Wii U flop.

Is Nintendo still bigger than Sony? I remember a topic about a month ago claiming that. What metric was that based off and is it a good way to determine a company's size??

 

[BGBW]

I grew up with a NES and SNES. That's why I hated Wii.

I see. So it was the lack of another Urban Champion that caused you to be so melancholic towards the Wii.

 

[Donnie]

Not a difficult question to answer is it? They sold the most consoles, they made the most money. People can argue over which systems had the better games, but thats quite different to who "won". My opinion is that Wii didn't have the best games library last gen. But then IMO Dreamcast had one of the best games libraries of its generation for purely fun games but it couldn't have been further from "winning".

 

[Usually Right]

You're explicitly projecting on to people what you personally believe. Stick to objective metrics, rather than seek out some subjective way to claim the Wii really lost in your heart.

If we stuck purely to objective metrics, this thread would be over at "cos they sold more units". Personally I think there's a lot more to it than that. I think Wii succeeded at selling a lot of consoles but absolutely failed to increase their actively engaged userbase. But if you require some sort of study to accompany all opinions on neogaf.com you may as well close the thread at "they sold the most units".

 

[kinggroin]

It had the most apealing software and hardware package, so, the most sales.


What other objective measure can we use?

Even if we say that the generation is still going, the PS3 and Xbox 360 are still playing catch up.




...what's the argument here? I don't get it.

 

[Artorias]

If we stuck purely to objective metrics, this thread would be over at "cos they sold more units".

The thread is still going precisely because so many people have a hard time accepting it.

 

[Opiate]

If we stuck purely to objective metrics, this thread would be over at "cos they sold more units".

Exactly. This thread should be about 10 posts long -- the only reason it isn't is because people refuse to accept what the objective evidence clearly shows.

Personally I think there's a lot more to it than that.

Because you want there to be. Because by your own admission you do not like the Wii. I don't like the Wii either, if that matters. I also don't care about the PS4. And yet, by any reasonable objective metric, the Wii won last generation, and the PS4 is thus far an unreserved success.

 

[RionaaM]

Given that the word 'Wii' contains two thirds of the letters necessary to spell 'Win', it doesn't seem like this was a fair contest in the first place. Also, it was smaller, so more of them could be placed on shelves for consumers to pick up. Another unfair advantage.

Basically, it fought dirty. We shouldn't reward that kind of behaviour and I'd hope to see the device struck from the annals of history. Like a shamed athlete or a butcher found to be using human parts in their pies.

This thread was worth it just for reading this post. Well played sir, you made me laugh.

 

[LegendofLex]

So I guess the argument is that it won because it sold way more units?

It won because it actually managed to carve out a new audience, while PS3 and Xbox 360 fought over the PS2 audience. Xbox "grew," but only because it cannibalized Sony's market. Sony declined. Nintendo exploded with massive growth from DS and Wii.

DS AND Wii. So, not a fluke. Not a market that Nintendo got out of sheer luck and will never get again. A very well-executed strategy with the right games targeting the right people with the right hardware. So, the exact opposite of their current strategy.

And it was massively profitable growth. While PS3 pissed away the PS2 profits, and Xbox 360 still didn't erode the original Xbox losses, Wii was so profitable that Nintendo failing with current hardware is maybe chipping away at 1/10 of what they made in any given year last-gen.

 

[Nyoro SF]

Wii won in the sense that a Toyota Corolla sells more than a sports car.

The Wii appealed to families, kids and casual gamers. It hit a demographic Microsoft and Sony considers a secondary concern.

The fact that the Wii was successful with a crowd that normally doesn't buy video games was both a success and a failure. The success was that it created a short term huge burst in sales and converted non-gamers into gamers. The failure is that crowd that bought the Wii wasn't loyal and moved on to casual experiences on their cell phones and never bought another console.

It temporary inflated video game sales numbers and hurt the industry. Nintendo further alienated the core audience and now they have backed themselves in a corner.

Was it worth it to win one generation when you potentially damaged the company beyond repair in the long run?

This is a good way of putting it. They won last gen all right, but at what a cost.

 

[marrec]

If we stuck purely to objective metrics, this thread would be over at "cos they sold more units". Personally I think there's a lot more to it than that. I think Wii succeeded at selling a lot of consoles but absolutely failed to increase their actively engaged userbase. But if you require some sort of study to accompany all opinions on neogaf.com you may as well close the thread at "they sold the most units".

But this thread isn't about the Wii's effect on the Wii U, it's about the winner of Gen 7 and the only metric we have to measure against in profits and sales.

There's no nuance.

 

[Interceptor]

It had the most apealing software and hardware package, so, the most sales.


What other objective measure can we use?

Even if we say that the generation is still going, the PS3 and Xbox 360 are still playing catch up.




...what's the argument here? I don't get it.

Salt. The salt that materializes if your console of choice didn´t have the most sales.

 

[SmokedMeat]

The GameCube sold almost as many systems as the Xbox. Both of those systems did nothing compared to the PS2. The PS2 dominated that console generation. This last generation also lasted longer with active support compared to the PS2 generation. The PS3 and Xbox 360 will not have the tail that the PS2 had. I think one reason the PS2 had such a long tail is how expensive the PS3 was.

I don't know about them not having a long tail. They're both still selling for around $250, while by this point most consoles were well under $200. What happens when they hit $149 or even $99? Hard to say.

 

[Usually Right]

Exactly. It should be over.



Because you want there to be. Because you clearly do not like the Wii and want to find ways to discredit its success using subjective criteria you cannot evidence. I don't like the Wii either, if that matters. I also don't care about the PS4. And yet, by any reasonable objective metric, the Wii won last generation, and the PS4 is thus far an unreserved success.

I didn't like the PS2. I played my GameCube and Dreamcast until 2006. That doesn't mean I'm claiming the PS2 was a failure by any means. This isn't about me not liking Wii therefore trying to pretend it was a failure, it's about whether or not selling the most units = the most happy customers and which is more important. Personally I think both aspects are important and Wii failed at keeping its owners engaged and satisfied, which causes long term damage to Nintendo's brand.

 

[Armaros]

If moving goalposts were an Olympic sport, this thread has created some champions.

 

[Contra11]

It is not over yet for the PS3 & XBOX 360 , they could surpass the Wii or one of them do this at some point

 

[neoanarch]

This is a good way of putting it. They won last gen all right, but at what a cost.

Trillion of Yen in profit?

 

[Jawmuncher]

How can you win Gen 7 when it's not over?

 

[Garou]

Exactly. This thread should be about 10 posts long -- the only reason it isn't is because people refuse to accept what the objective evidence clearly shows.

The problem lies in people who stick to the wrong objective evidence, which is the specs of the device, which has always been the No. 1 argument against the Wii.
Some people just can't get it into their head that the better specs don't mean better sales. You see it in every Vita-thread and sometimes when there is good news about the Xbox One.

Funnily the spec-argument is only valid until someone drops the word "PC", because those are not allowed to count for many.

 

[marrec]

Trillion of Yen in profit?

And apparently the discovery and excavation of newly untapped sources of salt.

 

[Opiate]

But this thread isn't about the Wii's effect on the Wii U, it's about the winner of Gen 7 and the only metric we have to measure against in profits and sales.

There's no nuance.

I would even go so far as to say that "nuance" is simply not possible when analyzing a market as large and complex as video games, and that when people try to apply "nuance" what they're really doing is simply inserting their subjective preferences and opinions in to the narrative.

 

[Kyzer]

Holy shit this thread.

You guys are so emotional because the Wii won last gen...no...stomped its fucking competition into the ground without even trying.


"Okay sure, virtual boy may have sold like ass, but there's more to it than that!"

 

[Opiate]

I didn't like the PS2. I played my GameCube and Dreamcast until 2006. That doesn't mean I'm claiming the PS2 was a failure by any means. This isn't about me not liking Wii therefore trying to pretend it was a failure, it's about whether or not selling the most units = the most happy customers and which is more important. Personally I think both aspects are important and Wii failed at keeping its owners engaged and satisfied, which causes long term damage to Nintendo's brand.

What is your evidence for this?

 

[Usually Right]

I would even go so far as to say that "nuance" is simply not possible when analyzing a market as large and complex as video games, and that when people try to apply "nuance" what they're really doing is simply inserting their subjective preferences and opinions in to the narrative.

So would you say there's no validity to the argument the Dreamcast failed because of Sega's alienation of customers over the last 5 years or so?

 

[Interceptor]

It is not over yet for the PS3 & XBOX 360 , they could surpass the Wii or one of them do this at some point

I still have hopes for the gamecube to win against the ps2. It´s not over yet! The GC had Metroid Prime, REmake and F-Zero! The PS2 had Singstar. If you count "real" games the GC won by a countrymile! The PS2 expanded the audience to casuals but at what cost?

 

[FLAguy954]

It had the most apealing software and hardware package, so, the most sales.


What other objective measure can we use?

Even if we say that the generation is still going, the PS3 and Xbox 360 are still playing catch up.




...what's the argument here? I don't get it.

Salt. The salt that materializes if your console of choice didn´t have the most sales.

Yep, it is a combination of salt and...

It is not over yet for the PS3 & XBOX 360 , they could surpass the Wii or one of them do this at some point

 

[jimi_dini]

Nintendo the company won last gen.
Nintendo's fans lost.

It's that simple.

Yes, I know Nintendo fans got some amazing games from the Wii, but

No but.

There were 2 superb 3D marios - Supa Maio Galaxyyyyy 1+2.
There was a new console 2D mario - we had to wait almost 20 fucking years for that
There were 2 Zeldas.
There was one new superb Metroid game and one bad one.
Both Gamecube Metroids were re-released with perfect controls
Both Gamecube Pikmins were re-released with perfect controls, sadly no Pikmin 3
We got plenty of classic Nintendo titles on it as well via Virtual Console
There was another Battalion Wars
There were plenty of new IPs released which were fun (Disaster: Day Of Crisis, Endless Ocean 1+2, Excite Truck/Bots)
There was a new superb Donkey Kong Country game
There were 2 fantastic Kirby games (1 was a collection? I'm not sure)
There was a new Punch-Out
There was a fucking new Sin + Punishment
Then there was Wario Land Shake It
And 3 fantastic games to finish it off (Xenoblade, Last Story, Pandora's Tower)

I didn't even list the common ones (Mario Kart, Paper Mario, etc.) and won't list the Wii Sports/Play/Party/Fit etc. games

Nintendo fans lost? What? That's crazy talk. Sure Nintendo not releasing Pikmin 3 was quite a bummer, but everything else was awesome

Spoiler

except Other M

.

 

[Artorias]

How can you win Gen 7 when it's not over?

I bought a PS2 game at Gamestop yesterday. I guess gen 6 isn't over.

 

[RM8]

If we stuck purely to objective metrics, this thread would be over at "cos they sold more units". Personally I think there's a lot more to it than that.

Basically, "my favorite console won in my heart".

What's next, PSP won against DS?

 

[Nyoro SF]

Trillion of Yen in profit?

Lots of money vs. being relevant in the core video gaming market!

"Eat the gold, if you will!"

 

[Kyzer]

Tickle Me Elmo outsells Leapfrog.

"Maybe they got more sales, or profit or whatever, but there's more to winning than that. Think about the impact on the toys industry, the amount of content, and long term brand recognition for fans. I don't even like Tickle Me Elmo, and neither did my friends little brothers aunt. People were unsatisfied."

So they won, right?

 

[Ol No Bones]

Yes you are.

Thanks for that. Everyone I knew with one seemed to never touch the thing including myself. Does that take into account games bundled into each Wii?

 

[Usually Right]

Basically, "my favorite console won in my heart".

What's next, PSP won against DS?

It's not about which I preferred. I have no preference between last gen consoles. Only a fool could claim Sony and MS didn't do a better job at satisfying customers though.

 

[Opiate]

So would you say there's no validity to the argument the Dreamcast failed because of Sega's alienation of customers over the last 5 years or so?

I don't know because I was never a huge fan of Sega. Is there evidence for it?

 

[phanphare]

Yep, it is a combination of salt and...

you win sir

 

[Interceptor]

No but.

There were 2 superb 3D marios - Supa Maio Galaxyyyyy 1+2.
There was a new console 2D mario - we had to wait almost 20 fucking years for that
There were 2 Zeldas.
There was one new superb Metroid game and one bad one.
Both Gamecube Metroids were re-released with perfect controls
Both Gamecube Pikmins were re-released with perfect controls, sadly no Pikmin 3
We got plenty of classic Nintendo titles on it as well via Virtual Console
There was another Battalion Wars
There were plenty of new IPs released which were fun (Disaster: Day Of Crisis, Endless Ocean 1+2, Excite Truck/Bots)
There was a new superb Donkey Kong Country game
There were 2 fantastic Kirby games (1 was a collection? I'm not sure)
There was a new Punch-Out
There was a fucking new Sin + Punishment
Then there was Wario Land Shake It
And 3 phantastic games to finish it off (Xenoblade, Last Story, Pandora's Tower)

I didn't even list the common ones (Mario Kart, Paper Mario, etc.) and won't list the Wii Sports/Play/Party/Fit etc. games

Nintendo fans lost? What? That's crazy talk. Sure Nintendo not releasing Pikmin 3 was quite a bummer, but everything else was awesome

Spoiler

except Other M

.

Thanks.

I never get these arguments about how the Wii had no games? I mean wtf? For me, a lifelong Nintendo-Fan, the Wii had the best output of Big N since the N64. There a tons of awesome games. People always just mention the Galaxies because they are forced to do so by metacritic. Wii had tons of awesome games, exclusive games on top of that.

 

[Opiate]

It's not about which I preferred. I have no preference between last gen consoles. Only a fool could claim Sony and MS didn't do a better job at satisfying customers though.

Would that be based on what, attach rate? The Wii's attach rate was higher than PS3's for most of the generation (despite being a better selling system, with better selling systems typically having depressed attach rates), and ended up about .1 below it as of last quarter.

 

[Jawmuncher]

I bought a PS2 game at Gamestop yesterday. I guess gen 6 isn't over.

Not the same thing.
360 and PS3 as platforms are still being supported with new releases this year.
I consider a substantial amount of support like that to still count as a gen still going.
Just because PS4, Xbone, and WiiU came out doesn't mean the previous gen suddenly dies.

 

[Fehyd]

I tend to view it a bit like Nintendo winning a gen with the wii, but ultimately possibly losing the war thanks to their mismanagement and complacency thereafter.

 

[batbeg]

I didn't like the PS2. I played my GameCube and Dreamcast until 2006. That doesn't mean I'm claiming the PS2 was a failure by any means. This isn't about me not liking Wii therefore trying to pretend it was a failure, it's about whether or not selling the most units = the most happy customers and which is more important. Personally I think both aspects are important and Wii failed at keeping its owners engaged and satisfied, which causes long term damage to Nintendo's brand.

When making a declaration of electronic products "winning" within their market, you can not use "happy customers" as a metric. It can't be quantified and simply does not apply to the discussion of objective analysis. At best it could support an argument based off of numbers (say, perhaps, declining hardware/software sales towards the end of the generation) but even then you should at least link to polls/surveys/something.

It's completely evident to anyone with reading comprehension the Wii didn't win you over last generation. But it's equally evident to anyone with reasoning capacity the Wii won the generation.

The Wii U is an absolute non factor in this. The Pippin didn't magically prevent iOS gaming from succeeding.

 

[BibiMaghoo]

I think the takeaway for everyone is that the system won hands down. It did so because people that did not play video games, bought one to play video games. That is the bottom line. It grabbed a shit load of non-industry customers and brought them in. They may not have stayed, they may have moved on, but that is what happened.

I've still never even played one. I'll have to correct that one day.

 

[Occam]

Exactly. This thread should be about 10 posts long -- the only reason it isn't is because people refuse to accept what the objective evidence clearly shows.

All three 7th gen home consoles are currently still in production and for sale - it's not over until the fat lady sings. I don't believe 360 has a chance, but who knows when Sony will discontinue PS3; it could be several more years. Will they be able to sell an additional 20 million PS3s until then? Unlikely, but not impossible.

 

[Kyzer]

Idk. Sure maybe the Wii had more sales than both competitors combined at one point, had a ton of AAA games and multi million sellers, was sold out for literally years, revolutionized the gaming industry, digital backwards catalogues, and appealed to people who never played a game before in their life, and has some of the most critically acclaimed games of all time. But personally, I think there's more to winning than beating every competitor in nearly every measurable way by large margins.


You guys are fucking ridiculous

 

[Turrican3]

Does that take into account games bundled into each Wii?

Yes:

http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/pdf/2014/140129e.pdf

note 6, page 7

 

[spookyfish]

I would also add the Wii "won" because the other two players adapted their own consoles to motion controls. The Wii didn't become more like them and seek their fan base; they altered their business models and sought the Wii's fan base.

That's a market leader, folks.

 

[Artorias]

Not the same thing.
360 and PS3 as platforms are still being supported with new releases this year.
I consider a substantial amount of support like that to still count as a gen still going.
Just because PS4, Xbone, and WiiU came out doesn't mean the previous gen suddenly dies.

I was mostly joking, but there is no way PS3 or 360 overtake Wii in sales in the next few years. If PS3 wins the 7th gen in 2018, I will give credit where credit is due lol.