bobawesome
Member
My feelings exactly. I disliked Steamworld Dig and thought it was unworthy of all the praise thrown about but this just ensures I won't be giving them any support any in the future. Talk about trying way too hard.
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Three devs weigh in on the good and bad of Nintendos eShops: "Flawed Paradise"
- Thread starter Orniletter
- Start date
My feelings exactly. I disliked Steamworld Dig and thought it was unworthy of all the praise thrown about but this just ensures I won't be giving them any support any in the future. Talk about trying way too hard.
Yes, apologize. It's something businesses do when they offend current and potential customers.
Q
qizah
Unconfirmed Member
They need to fix the 3DS eShop, but the Wii U eShop is still the best laid out design of the three stores IMO. It's easy to find what you want.
That said the Wii U needs more indie games... but so is the PS4. Granted it's still early, but I thought I'd see a little more already from both platforms. At least Transistor and Shovel Knight are out next month.
That said the Wii U needs more indie games... but so is the PS4. Granted it's still early, but I thought I'd see a little more already from both platforms. At least Transistor and Shovel Knight are out next month.
People being mad about the "real gamers" comment while constantly blasting Nintendo in other threads for not catering to "real gamers."
We've gone full circle.
Indies and 3rd parties can set their own prices. This has been the rule for a while now.
It's probably less about pricing (which still does have a significant gripe) and more about how terrible Greenlight and by extension their platform approval process is. It seems like its an absolute nightmare to get anything published on Steam.
We've gone full circle.
Indies and 3rd parties can set their own prices. This has been the rule for a while now.
It's probably less about pricing (which still does have a significant gripe) and more about how terrible Greenlight and by extension their platform approval process is. It seems like its an absolute nightmare to get anything published on Steam.
Sorry but this always bugs me. The prices on the eShop are the RRP/MSRP. If retailers choose to sell than less than that, it's their choice, but from what I have read, Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft all have to sell at the RRP (outside of sales/promotions) on their digital storefronts else they'll have issues with retailers.
It's not something that's Nintendo exclusive either. Look at the PS4 store...
Didn't Steamworld Dig launch on 3DS months ahead of launching anywhere else?
And from what I saw, the devs were making a decent effort to advertise and get word out about the game for the 3DS release months ahead of time, while on other platforms, the pre-release press salvo consisted of "oh by the way this is coming out next week." That's how I learned the PSN version existed, and I spend hours daily on video game websites.
But no, a late port with no advertising didn't sell because the world's just against ya, you poor salty dev. You, you did everything right.
And from what I saw, the devs were making a decent effort to advertise and get word out about the game for the 3DS release months ahead of time, while on other platforms, the pre-release press salvo consisted of "oh by the way this is coming out next week." That's how I learned the PSN version existed, and I spend hours daily on video game websites.
But no, a late port with no advertising didn't sell because the world's just against ya, you poor salty dev. You, you did everything right.
The12thGripper
Member
I'm not surprised developers hate Steam, their games are constantly put on sale (I'm pretty sure that it can be without their permission) and make less money than they want to. Because of constant sales, Steam users almost never buy a game at launch and wait for it to drop; which is almost non-existent on any other digital platform. (meaning PSN, XBL, eShop)
man, you're always on point.
ElectricKaibutsu
Member
I'm possibly ignorant of the connotation of what "real gamers" implies, but I'm pretty sure everyone in this thread would qualify. Why be offended?
AaronB
Member
I think the term "real gamers" makes sense in the context in which they used it. They were saying that Nintendo's customers appreciate quality, and don't just ignore everything that's over .99c. That could be said about almost any console audience compared to average mobile gamers.
"Big fish in a small pond" sums the developer situation up. I've probably at least heard of every game in the eShop; for nearly all of them I have an idea of what they're about and how much they appeal to me; and I actually own a pretty good percentage of them. There are very few that are downright bad. While it's nice to have ever more games to choose from, saturation does reduce those things and initiate the race to the bottom those developers are talking about.
"Big fish in a small pond" sums the developer situation up. I've probably at least heard of every game in the eShop; for nearly all of them I have an idea of what they're about and how much they appeal to me; and I actually own a pretty good percentage of them. There are very few that are downright bad. While it's nice to have ever more games to choose from, saturation does reduce those things and initiate the race to the bottom those developers are talking about.
It essentally slams anyone who took advantage of a sale or, even worse, decided to wait for a sale. Even if they had a good reason (like not being as well-off).
Chindogg's comment doesn't make sense to me at all and he's usually coherent in his arguments, but it is early still in the day.
Agreed 100%.
If there's one thing which has become abundantly clear over the past few years, it's that developers - particularly small, independent developers - hate Steam.
Stratostar
Member
Are you really that sensitive? Jesus
Everyone in the world who plays any type of game is a "real" gamer. It's like saying that only people who drive sports cars are "real drivers". It's obnoxious.
As Dave said, use a term like "enthusiast", it gets the point across without sounding snobbish.
No, it's just an annoying comment. Part of running any business is PR. It's good PR in this case to not be annoying.
I liked their game a lot, btw. I bought it on Steam and again on Vita.
As Dave said, use a term like "enthusiast", it gets the point across without sounding snobbish.
No, it's just an annoying comment. Part of running any business is PR. It's good PR in this case to not be annoying.
I liked their game a lot, btw. I bought it on Steam and again on Vita.
ElectricKaibutsu
Member
Oooh, is that why people are offended? I just took it to mean that people who shop on the eShop buy meatier games than the people who stick to Candy Crush, Temple Run, and the like.
This coming from the guys who go into every single Nintendo thread and proclaim that they're selling nothing but tablet games for $60 makes this statement come off a bit rich.
I get your argument, and you're exactly right that its a bit of a dick thing to say, but you two have done the exact same thing several times in the past. Perhaps it might be a better idea to improve your own rhetoric rather than demand apologies from others while atop your own ivory tower.
In short: Pot. Kettle. Black.
That's the impression I took from it as well. It's still a bit of a dick thing to say but it doesn't warrant some kind of apology.
Stratostar
Member
I can understand why you were put off by their comment, but asking for an apology is making a mountain out of a molehill. I&F owe us nothing.
Y'have to read the rest of the sentence, then.
Devs said:
I didn't get any indication they were talking Candy Crush, that looks like a slam on sales to me.
Yeah I'm reading that and thinking .99 iphone games. It could be taken a few ways I guess.
Either way, it was still a bit of a dick thing to say but not enough to go as far as apologize. They don't owe us anything as we don't owe them our money. I still haven't purchased Fez because I feel that Phil Fish is an egotistical asshat and I don't think either of us are losing out because of the lack of our transaction.
ElectricKaibutsu
Member
I don't follow. I don't think it would be people who drive sports cars in this analogy but people who are just really into driving. The people who care about what parts go on their car and read driving blogs or maybe race or something. That's certainly different than the people who never change their oil. And I doubt those people care if they're considered real drivers or not.
I guess my point is, the only people who should be offended by not being considered "real gamers" are the people who not only don't care enough about gaming to be offended, but also would absolutely not even happen upon that quote.
But I still feel like I'm missing something, because like I said before, everyone on GAF is definitely in that "real gamer" territory so why would anyone here care? I feel like I missed like fifty conversations about this term and that it was deemed offensive before it was said by the Steamworld Dig guy.
Yeah, especially to us.
As far as I know, devs and/or publishers have to agree with Valve for a game to be put on sale. And more people may be buying it for cheap, but that means the game will have more sales, especially from people who would have never bought it otherwise. I don't know the numbers, so I can't tell you which approach is better, but I can tell you that I have bought a lot of stuff just because it costed a few bucks (most of which I haven't even touched).
This is the most accurate and well researched post I have read on this forum in years. It reflects reality so well that I think the post should be turned into an image and stickied at the top of the Gaming forum so all can see the wisdom it conveys. Every single line in the post, and the choice of each word, was clearly carefully selected to best represent the factual state of the Steam platform. I'm totally blown away.
ahhahahahahahaha
Coffee Dog
Banned
It makes sense. Quality matters more when your audience are enthusiast gamers. If you make legitimately good games, you'll stand out and get word of mouth.
This sounds accurate.
Orniletter
Banned
One thing to keep in mind is that Image and Form is a swedish game studio, they aren´t native english speakers.
Brjann Sigurgeirsson is not the most british/ american name out there so I´d say cut the guy some slack, his post/ point didn´t come of as antagonistic .
Brjann Sigurgeirsson is not the most british/ american name out there so I´d say cut the guy some slack, his post/ point didn´t come of as antagonistic .
I can taste the sarcasm. This post is a paragon for backhanded comments and should be upheld for all time.
Great find and a good read.
There are opportunities on all marketplaces, and you have to choose where to put your product carefully. I have no doubt in my mind that for some games, an iOS release would be pointless, whereas a 3ds or vita release would be lucrative.
Developers are very lucky right now that we still have the Nintendo home + portable, and PS handheld ecosystems.
There are opportunities on all marketplaces, and you have to choose where to put your product carefully. I have no doubt in my mind that for some games, an iOS release would be pointless, whereas a 3ds or vita release would be lucrative.
Developers are very lucky right now that we still have the Nintendo home + portable, and PS handheld ecosystems.
HamPster PamPster
Member
It was interesting to read the developers thoughts. I'm curious to see what they are doing in a year or two since actions speak louder than words. Two Tribes has a lot of nice things to say, but didn't they close due to poor sales? I guess they are just a publisher now? Ripstone is only bringing over late ports and Image & Form has Steamworld Dig on Steam and PSN but not the Wii U's eshop
I know your argument has already been shot to hell and back, but:
1) Developers decide when their games go on sale.
2) Of the top 10 selling games on Steam right now, only two are on sale.
sweet jesus
PdotMichael
Banned
I hope I'm not the only one who does have Image and Form on an imaginary black list now.
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
I've heard way greater BS by way worse devs. I&F are good devs, and good devs have my uncoditional support.
Waylon Drums
Member
I'm fascinated about the outrage over the term "real gamers" because after reading almost any thread about women or gay people in games I thought being offended is weak and everyone should just toughen up.
Steamworld Dig is amazing. Love it in the 3DS and will get it on PS4/Vita soon. No need to blacklist them. 
Yeah, they don't seem to be huge fans of Steam...same way many don't seem to be big fans of Nintendo, Microsoft and/or Sony. A ton of people were asking for a Steam port, guess sales didn't translated. Probably why the game made it to PS4 and Vita too.
Who knows. It could like that developer on WiiWare that made crappy games/clones, conplained that sales were better on PSP, praising Sony for been helpful ...and since then sales on Sony platforms aren't good so he complained about Sony not been helpful. Though I&F made a great game; so we'll see.
Yeah, they don't seem to be huge fans of Steam...same way many don't seem to be big fans of Nintendo, Microsoft and/or Sony. A ton of people were asking for a Steam port, guess sales didn't translated. Probably why the game made it to PS4 and Vita too.
Who knows. It could like that developer on WiiWare that made crappy games/clones, conplained that sales were better on PSP, praising Sony for been helpful ...and since then sales on Sony platforms aren't good so he complained about Sony not been helpful. Though I&F made a great game; so we'll see.
I don't understand the relationship between the two things you're mentioning.
The12thGripper
Member
I meant to put a little note saying correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems a bit too late. I'm not into PC gaming at all, so my knowledge is incredibly limited. Now while developers being able to initiate sales on their own should of been there Day 1, does Valve still do sales whenever they feel like it?
I can taste the sarcasm. This post is a paragon for backhanded comments and should be upheld for all time.
I couldn't agree more.
Village_Idiot
Banned
The 3ds eshop is a pain.
The wiiU eshop is almost perfect at this stage. Just want to be able to preload games. Hate staying awake til midnight to then have to wait for the 12gb download (DKC:TF)
The big difference I think is that they added the eshop by update to the 3ds, same with miiverse where as the Wii u was built with the eshop in mind.
I'm not annoyed by the mention of real gamers. I'm just confused by it.Also I think image and form guys use English as a second language.
What they probably meant by real gamers are people who consider gaming their hobby or are simply just passionate about gaming. If this is what they meant then they are people who regularly research games looking for new experiences.
I'm not a big fan of categorising gamers but as a business you pretty much have to understand your market and where your customers might be.
But yeah, the eshop is good and they've said they're working on a web version which might be good as the only other platform where I enjoy the web version would be the Google play store first and then steam a much further second. Psn and Xbox are functional but push their latest retail games too hard. The iOS app store web version is horrific.
The wiiU eshop is almost perfect at this stage. Just want to be able to preload games. Hate staying awake til midnight to then have to wait for the 12gb download (DKC:TF)
The big difference I think is that they added the eshop by update to the 3ds, same with miiverse where as the Wii u was built with the eshop in mind.
I'm not annoyed by the mention of real gamers. I'm just confused by it.Also I think image and form guys use English as a second language.
What they probably meant by real gamers are people who consider gaming their hobby or are simply just passionate about gaming. If this is what they meant then they are people who regularly research games looking for new experiences.
I'm not a big fan of categorising gamers but as a business you pretty much have to understand your market and where your customers might be.
But yeah, the eshop is good and they've said they're working on a web version which might be good as the only other platform where I enjoy the web version would be the Google play store first and then steam a much further second. Psn and Xbox are functional but push their latest retail games too hard. The iOS app store web version is horrific.
I wouldn't say I'm outraged, but I do think it's a self defeating delineation.
It smacks of a desire by enthusiast gamers to quarantine themselves off, to remain removed from the dirty casuals who infected the Wii and now infect iOS and browser gaming and other denigrated platforms.
Rather than accept these consumers as just another part of the community of gaming, a term like "real gamers" suggests a desire to remove them from the community entirely. They aren't real gamers, after all.
And I refer to this as self defeating for a very simple reason: if enthusiast gamers set it up as a divisive, it's-us-or-them world, then the casual gamers will win, long term. There are more of them, and they are more profitable.
Triggerhappytel
Member
I wonder how devs think the eShop compares to selling digital titles on the Vita. Both consoles are in much the same place, and because of the smaller, more dedicated audience, certain game types seem to sell comparatively well on both.
Even without much knowledge, surely you're aware that the indie support on Steam is an order of magnitude greater than it is on XBL/PSN/eShop. The number of indie games on Steam is so large that the more common complaint is that there are too many indie games, making purchasing decisions too complicated.
If Indie developers hated Steam, as you suggest, then surely this wouldn't be the case. Surely it would be the console services that are flooded with indie games, instead of the other way around, as it is now. This doesn't require special or intimate knowledge.
AcademicSaucer
Member
The two tribes guy knows whats up . Eshop has so may things that could be improved
OnionPowder
Member
SkeptiMism
Member
Worth noting about first link is that the thing informed about in that article is about that developers can now set their own sales at any time. Valve did need their permission before this too, but I'm pretty sure it worked like that Valve asked before the big sales from devs if they want to be part of the sales and by how much.
I'm pretty sure Valve has had to ask from devs from day 1 as any platform holder.
But anyway, even as ignorant as your comment was, it was also quite stupid. It's really not hard at all to think of the multiple reasons why the frequent sales can be and are very effective.
Two Tribes still lives as a developer too, but they had to reorganize. Toki Tori 2 bombed on both Steam and Wii U.
Qtwentyseven
Neo Member
Who blacklists developers over some random thing they said? I understand wanting to speak with your wallet, but really?
Seems like a super petty thing to get all up in arms about.
Seems like a super petty thing to get all up in arms about.
You may want to read the article. Valve has never done that. The previous method is that the developers had to plan things out ahead of time with Valve, sending their requests (or responding to) to be part of a Weekend Sale for say 50 percent off before the sale would take place (basically similar to most digital stores). The newer method allows them to say, put their game on sale for 90 percent off for 3 hours at midnight if they wanted. Developers always controlled their sales, they just have MORE control now.
Sylverstone14
Member
No, I think you've understood quite well what I meant. We're quite confident in our ability to make good games, and we would love to see quality games on all platforms.
But I think it's a good thing that Nintendo - and other platform owners - keep the entry level high, which means that hopefully we devs can refrain from making me-too or subpar games for the eShops or the equivalent, or race each other to the bottom. There are great F2P games, but F2P doesn't have to be the standard everywhere. F2P often relies on monetizing customers after acquisition, and I think immersion suffers for it. Perhaps not the best of analogies, but imagine having to pay or watch a commercial message every 15th-20th minute of a movie. It would be unbearable...
...oh that's right, that's what we're used to doing. Well, commercials that break up movies or TV shows are a nuisance, but that's reality if you choose to go with it. Games don't have to work that way.
charlequin
Banned
I don't think there is any particularly supportable sense in which "many" developers are seeing this, no.
What we're seeing on eShop right now is similar to what Sony's successfully cultivated on the Vita and what Nintendo saw in the past on systems like the GameCube. When you take a platform that has a smaller library and less overall support, but a fairly hungry and dedicated ownership base, there's potential for quality products to get much more attention and find big success. This works out particularly well for people whose games are very good but wouldn't necessarily be the best thing on a heavily populated platform like Steam or iOS; it gives them the chance to grab a lot more eyeballs and build a brand without as much direct competition as they'd see on a busier platform.
I think it's also worth noting how important launch order is in situations like this. When a game comes out on a platform where it's underappreciated, it can blow up on a later release (like Super Meat Boy did when it went from XBLA to Steam), but if a game builds a dedicated audience on its initial platform, it might actually sell less well on later platforms than it would have originally, since so many high-information consumer already got to it in its initial release.