And this is where things get really messy, in the end someone would get the short end of the stick and be pissed, leading to flaming/trolling etc.
Probably for the best that the admins over there shot the idea down.
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Sexism in the Star Citizen forums [Update: RSI responds]
- Thread starter Messofanego
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And this is where things get really messy, in the end someone would get the short end of the stick and be pissed, leading to flaming/trolling etc.
Probably for the best that the admins over there shot the idea down.
Lord of Castamere
Member
It really should have been that simple. A few temp bans handed out some posted, deleted, and a moderator post saying derails will get banned. Girl thread aside, I would expect that treatment in any topic centered thread. It looks like the mods took the easy way out.
Don't put words in my mouth, you're the one putting up the argument that a voice of either gender could be invalid just based on the disproportionate notion that everyone is treated the same. It's not about being invalid, it's about feeling safe and not like everyone is dismissing you just because you want to feel safe around people who are more like you.
I don't think an issue stemming from how a particular gender feels their voice should be heard to their peers is necessarily one that should be felt like "OH I GET YOU DONT WORRY". No, you don't get it. I can tell because you think a social group where women want to talk to other women is inherently sexist.
Just reverse the roles and ask yourself if that's reasonable. Discrimination is illegal for a reason, something astutely pointed out by the blogger. Do you consider doing something that is legally afforded to you to be a form of entitlement? I don't see it in the player's actions. I see the mood changing because one group judged a person solely because they belong to another group. It wasn't because he wasn't following table protocol, or was an abrasive player. It was because he was a man. Do you see where there might be some potential problems with that?
The petty back and forth that followed made them both look dumb. The only person that really knows why he entered that tournament is him.
Later in the thread the poster says they must "identify as female" although one has to wonder how that works with a background check and interview, and who makes that call.
Minsc
Gold Member
This is a good point as well. Now it becomes the forum's responsibility for allowing a girls only thread that everyone in the thread is indeed female, and everyone rejected is not female. All the people who get rejected from the thread and go to the moderators claiming they are female now have an issue (same when someone is reporting another in the thread to be male). What are the moderators supposed to do, other than look at what they picked (if anything) in their profile? Seeing there is already such a hostile environment in their forums, adding a warehouse full of fuel to them doesn't seem like the best idea.
Well, there is no 'matter' to speak of. It's not like I have the scars of my ancestors.
People seperating into groups while trying to reach equality doesn't work. Different and equal doesn't work.
I think your attitude is the kind that stagnates equality. I don't mean to belittle it, it's valid, but that way of thinking doesn't promote equality. Sadly, though, it's a cultural thing that people hold on to.
Messofanego
Banned
Amadeus22 going in hard on this.
Second page: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/35305811/RSI/brownsea2.png
Howard Crane asks this:
"How do you handle females in males bodies and transwomen and transman in general? Thank you for your answers and good luck."
Lauresh:
"Transwomen would be welcome of course, transmen as they identify as male would be encouraged to participate in the public areas."
Second page: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/35305811/RSI/brownsea2.png
Howard Crane asks this:
"How do you handle females in males bodies and transwomen and transman in general? Thank you for your answers and good luck."
Lauresh:
"Transwomen would be welcome of course, transmen as they identify as male would be encouraged to participate in the public areas."
guggnichso
Banned
...which then would exclude genderqueer people, who don't identify as either gender, or both, or sometimes the one or the other.
guggnichso
Banned
Ah, thanks, must have skipped over this.
Institutional racism and cumulative disadvantage are both forms of "matter." The fact that we still have a pay gap and a political party campaigning to curtail women's reproductive rights is "matter." These are real things that don't stop existing just because you ignore them, they need to be recognized and addressed directly.
Edit: For the record I am not 100% sold on the idea of a women-only space in this particular instance, because there's still a lot I need to read and some of some of the complications people have brought up. My beef is with the "Well, if you reverse the roles..." posts.
If you arbitrarily change important details of a situation, all of the same arguments don't apply because you just made it into a very different situation.
SC forums allow for any / all moderation to be reviewed by the CIG staff. That's a better path to take.
It sure looks like rule #3 "Starting threads on controversial topics simply to generate an argument is forbidden." was violated
I'm not sure about rule #5, maybe bumping? Flag abuse is easy to detect, so probably valid.. I'd imagine will all the ranting someone has elevated it already.
Looking to exclude people from a group based on gender, not a good idea in general.
It sure looks like rule #3 "Starting threads on controversial topics simply to generate an argument is forbidden." was violated
I'm not sure about rule #5, maybe bumping? Flag abuse is easy to detect, so probably valid.. I'd imagine will all the ranting someone has elevated it already.
Looking to exclude people from a group based on gender, not a good idea in general.
RicoTheMad
Banned
This.
I think X or Y only clubs in general are a bad idea. Treat people like they're people, judge them based on their merits, personalities, likes and dislikes, not based on whatever arbitrary thing they were born with. Separation is not the solution, it is only making the problem worse.
Online communities should weed out the trolls, not encourage people splintering off into "safe zones" because trolls run rampant.
Aztechnology
Member
It's not just transphobic, it's androphobic. My post got glossed over before, but she's clearly using confirmation bias to support her argument to create a social group with a country club mentality. IE special area for one sex.
It's as "ist" a concept that there is, but doesn't count, of course.
R_thanatos
Member
Brb, creating a male-only place so i can discuss stuff in peace.
Joke aside, my opinion is that if groups or team of women-only players decide to play the game their way or to role play in a certain way , as long as they are aware of the unwanted attention, i'd say "do it"
in parties, groups , guild or whatever of course
Joke aside, my opinion is that if groups or team of women-only players decide to play the game their way or to role play in a certain way , as long as they are aware of the unwanted attention, i'd say "do it"
in parties, groups , guild or whatever of course
Sakura
Member
Having read through the thread, I really don't think the responses the OP got were particularly that bad. Even the people who had negative opinions of the group told her she should go ahead and make it.
And also it seems like the OP and her friends belong to some kind of troll group(?), so when the OP is saying how there will be voice chat and background checks to indeed confirm you are a girl, and how she kind of ignores most of the well written posts that have negative opinions, I can see why people think it's a troll thread.
And also it seems like the OP and her friends belong to some kind of troll group(?), so when the OP is saying how there will be voice chat and background checks to indeed confirm you are a girl, and how she kind of ignores most of the well written posts that have negative opinions, I can see why people think it's a troll thread.
But it is sexist. That doesn't make it evil. It's just an inherently sexist concept. It just is.
They are goons. There are three in the thread by my count, and it all smacks of obvious trolling to me.
Messofanego
Banned
Sometimes its good to converse with people with similar interests or cultures and discuss more detailed stuff that other people wouldn't be able to answer. For example, asking about some duas and prayer stuff in a muslim thread. Or what to do during ramadan.
If something suggests separation between groups without any bigoted intent, it might be more accurate to describe it as divisive, partisan, or factionalist, not automatically sexist, racist, etc.
There are fair arguments to be made against the above approaches, and also fair arguments for them. Sexism and racism, however, are pretty indefensible.
Yup, as soon as I saw that most of that OP's credibility was gone. Sorry but this is what goons do. This specific attack vector may be new but creating chaos in game communities is what goons live for.
Messofanego
Banned
Yeah, it wasn't getting bad until later on from page 3 and later. I have no idea about the Something Awful or Goonrathi stuff, so I have no clue what that's about
I guess we'll see in 7 days when she's unbanned if she just makes the social group and how it goes from there?
That's because one sex doesn't have a history of being oppressed....
Did you really just pull the "why isn't there a White History month" argument?
OldMilwaukee
Banned
Sign me up for the irreproachable Space Jews guild then
First off, yeah the SC forums can be a pretty lousy place.
But I also think that most people thought that it's just another Goon (the guys from the something awful forum, which also have a major EVE group) trolling thread.
And it's not like the Goons do respect all people, they openly mock one of the CIG employees for his weight on their forum.
block tower
Member
this. it's really disturbing that Star Citizen forums were allowing threads to be made concerning rape, bizarre even. never played the game, never plan to, but i can't blame the female players wanting separation from such a volatile community. it still amazes me that people make an effort to be so sexist over something as arbitrary as video games.
I'm not seeing a lack of bigoted intent in this case.
It is really clearly sexist, despite whatever other title you'd like to ascribe to it. It's making an exclusionary judgement because the excluded are a different gender. Or, worse, because they belong to a gender wherein some of whom, on that particular forum, promote rape culture.
Always unsure how to feel about stuff like this. I do not see anything inherently wrong with wanting a group of a specific gender for purposes of discussion of gender-related issues. On the other hand, video interviews and special permission needed to have such a discussion seems rather far afield of being able to create that discourse.
Still, societal induction does not just happen, as everyone here seems to think. Some people have a genuine and legitimate fear or worry of the other gender, and many of those are valid and being able to enter society normally is not an option for those individuals. They need a space that feels safe for them and though I'm not sure an internet forum is the place for that, I see nothing wrong with it.
The moderators probably could have been more even handed and simply state that they could not conduct video interviews as a precondition for joining the group, or something else. It's probably not under the moderators' purview to oversee the groups in such a capcity however (never been on their forums so if I'm wrong, apologies).
Still, societal induction does not just happen, as everyone here seems to think. Some people have a genuine and legitimate fear or worry of the other gender, and many of those are valid and being able to enter society normally is not an option for those individuals. They need a space that feels safe for them and though I'm not sure an internet forum is the place for that, I see nothing wrong with it.
The moderators probably could have been more even handed and simply state that they could not conduct video interviews as a precondition for joining the group, or something else. It's probably not under the moderators' purview to oversee the groups in such a capcity however (never been on their forums so if I'm wrong, apologies).
MadJackChurchill
Banned
The term 'real rape culture' has already been used in this thread. Seriously. And right above me is a "not all men" post - stupendous.
I'm not doubting the validity of the OP or sexism in gaming forums (which this is totally an example of), it's just that the discussion can very easily get out of hand. Although, admittedly, it's been tidier than I expected so far.
At what point does history cease to be an excuse for present behavior? Is there some sort of a metric for this, or do we just trust the various groups to tell us when they feel sufficiently respected and can stop receiving special treatment?
Nymphae
Banned
I don't get why female players who have a problem with that stuff would even want to continue to be a part of that community. Just play the game with your friends and make a community somewhere else.
The moderators should provide an environment that no class of people feel unsafe or unwelcome. If they can't control the general forums so minorities feel safe why not give them their own subsection? My gym has lady only hours I don't see the big deal giving women their own forum.
It seems that this social group was needed because the mods weren't doing their job right.
David Incorporated Esq.
Member
Why not just start a thread for lady pilots? Pretty much every forum I've been on has a girl-talk thread, and what always happens is that the discussion goes towards topics that guys generally aren't interested in. The topics themselves segregate the readers, why take it to the next level and actually exclude men?
Edit: Men could still post, but anyone who actually became a problem would be dealt with by the mods.
Edit: Men could still post, but anyone who actually became a problem would be dealt with by the mods.
No, I pulled the "men's clubs got sued to force them to allow women in" argument. Equality works both ways. You don't get to demand equal rights and then go "but we still want to be special snowflakes all by ourselves and everyone should accept that because we say so and if you disagree with us you should check your privilege!" Then again now that I see that this is just a Something Awful group doing what they always do I've no real interest in hanging around arguing with SJWs about how creating exclusionary groups based on race/gender is a bad thing only to be told it isn't because of history and...reasons I'll never understand because I'm just a white male. So feel free to chalk this up as a personal victory for your side, if you'd like. Whatevs.
Actually "safe zones" are an acceptable and proactive part of everyday life. Let's take a look at how the status quo affects the LGBTQ segment of our population:
GayAlliance.com said:
Now this is simply in actual life, in a place where you expect might expect better: the workplace. I have encountered this kind of backhanded bigotry myself as a transgendered person, real life or otherwise. The internet is not much better, when you consider a bigot like Gabe from Penny Arcade is an accepted member of the gaming community that hosts one of the biggest conventions around.
The point is: "safe zones" work. They empower and affirm people who feel disadvantaged by the real prejudices and bigotry that are out there. It's a shame that the Star Citizen forum is a garbage dump, it's a shame that the group couldn't get off the ground, and it's a shame that people still misunderstand the idea behind a safe zone in the year 2014.
Funny thing is most wont go over the information like you did. Most here will see the crimes against women fueled thread title and make up the rest.
Seems like more of the..don't give me what I want I will shame you and your game. Mods should weed out the fools on both sides. Both sexes should be on the same footing.
Sandy Nipples
Banned
OP you do realize this could be a stunt by Somethingawful, right? Look at the avatar in the first pic, pretty obvious.
RicoTheMad
Banned
The thing is, you can do this without creating an artificially divisive exclusive group. Why not just ask in general "Hey anyone else wondering about X thing? Anyone have tips on Y thing?"
If it pertains to the game, post it on the game forums. Off topic? Most games have an Offtopic section as well. We should encourage people to try to be better, not hide ourselves or others away because others can't handle it.
If the aim of this group was to talk about "girl things" whatever that may be in their particular case, I question their choice of posting said intent on a forum aimed at talking about a game. If their discussion was relevant to the game, like I said, nobody gains anything from excluding others from it, regardless of what appendages they may have attached to their bodies.
OP admitted to not knowing who the goons are. This sadly seems like something right up their alley.
MadJackChurchill
Banned
/thread. Literally summed up the whole problem right there. I would say safe zones are MORE necessary on the Internet because minority groups hide their identity.
The fact that you see this as "sides" and want to passive-aggressively give a "victory" to the opposing team or whatever shows your own immaturity on this subject. Everyone should be working toward an inclusive environment and "safe zones" are a part of that.
David Incorporated Esq.
Member
SA is generally very liberal when it comes to gender issues, and is full of members who are a) completely normal and b) active members of other communities. Don't chalk it up to trolling just because they're SA.
(Note: I can't see the avatar you're talking about)
MadJackChurchill
Banned
I believe he's referring to the bee, as in goonswarm on EVE: https://wiki.eveonline.com/wikiEN/images/7/70/Goonswarm_Federation-logo.png
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