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[Ol No Bones]

The difference is that Microsoft has / is investing in an API that theoretically makes using cloud compute in games far easier to use.

At first the argument is that the cloud ☁ is BS and then when its shown to any extent people say well that everyone can do it.

 

[LyleLanley]

Well they could just go to a provider like amazon. No need for Nintendo (or Sony for that matter) to built its own server infrastructure.

And given things like iCloud partially run on azure, I wonder if they could just use azure themselves. Would be an interesting test of MS neutrality.

I think I remember reading that it would be heavily discounted for companies developing for XB1 so I imagine that if Sony or Nintendo wanted to pay the full price to use Azure Microsoft would have no problem letting them.

 

[kitch9]

Ya that will be the interesting part. I mean something like Oblivion where grass settings can drop the FPS by 1/2 if you crank it. Something like this working on that particular problem would be where I would want them to work. On the side stuff like that. It eats up a ton and seems somewhat perfect for this.

But we will see. They seem to think its worth following so it will be interesting where they come out.
Its easy to see so far that current gen can't handle some of these things so if they have to off load some of it and a game would have a normal setting(Skyrim normal) or high(online setting assisted by this) I am cool with that.

The amount of grass in Oblivion wouldn't be affected by this though. You would still have less grass but the cloud could make it bend and stuff, in theory.

 

[Obscured]

presumably no physics simulation would occur. the ball would just phase through the grass.

I believe in the thread this was originally posted in that was exactly what he said. So sounded like they were working on both connected and non-connected scenarios.

Going to need to see an actual game using it before I'm a believer.

And maybe not even then.

(Sorry, not to pick on you specifically and maybe you didn't mean this in the spirit I read this in, but I get the impression a lot of people don't believe this is even feasible and ridiculous to even try and is only PR nonsense. I get skepticism, but it often seems beyond that. I would rather see companies push technology and fail than not try at all, but that is obviously just my opinion).

 

[Codeblew]

The difference is that Microsoft has / is investing in an API that theoretically makes using cloud compute in games far easier to use.

Okay, but at the end of it, it is just sending TCP or UDP packets to/from server. I guess I just don't understand what value an API would provide. It seems to me that each game would be highly specialized on what it would need and would have to create their own client/server API.

At first the argument is that the cloud ☁ is BS and then when its shown to any extent people say well that everyone can do it.

The reason people say it is BS because it is nothing new. Computing things on servers has been going on since the BBS days (before the internet existed).

 

[Karak]

The amount of grass in Oblivion wouldn't be affected by this though. You would still have less grass but the cloud could make it bend and stuff, in theory.

I am totally fine with the Devs doing things like that. Especially stuff like he posted in the other thread like grass that stays bent after someone walks through it and so forth. Very cool.

 

[a916]

I don't know why people still need convincing about this... the cloud does help, Respawn developers already mentioned it too about how it lets them do more console side while the server takes care of other stuff. There was a developer tech talk about Battlefield 4 as well where there's a lot of calculations going on server side (not Azure mind you, but still an example of how the cloud can help) taking care of a lot of the physics calculations.

Is it going to double the Xbox's power, no... but it does free up valuable power and this is something that MS already has set up for people to use for a cost OR (in Titanfall's case) offer it up at a discount to attract developers.

Can Nintendo and Sony do it? Yeah, but they key part is, they haven't yet. And until Sony get's something similar running and begins offering discounts to lure in developers, that's a small advantage for the XB1 and it's being touted as such.

 

[Quasar]

At first the argument is that the cloud ☁ is BS and then when its shown to any extent people say well that everyone can do it.

Well that's generally how computing seems to work. A problem being too hard, then after one person cracks it others are able to do so as well.

 

[Zyae]

Okay, but at the end of it, it is just sending TCP or UDP packets to/from server. I guess I just don't understand what value an API would provide. It seems to me that each game would be highly specialized on what it would need and would have to create their own client/server API.



The reason people say it is BS because it is nothing new. Computing things on servers has been going on since the BBS days (before the internet existed).

But it clearly ISNT bs then, and it IS new for consoles.

 

[nib95]

You're right I misread. Anyway, AFAIK, Flower seems to use lower-precision collision with no permanence. It's also the only thing it does. And when I'm referring to physics calculations on grass in most games only having one point of articulation, I'm talking about it from a physics sim. perspective that's independent of any additional animation that runs on top.

Where are you getting info it has lower precision collision? From everything I've read the physics calculations seem to be fairly complex. Certainly looks far more realistic than the example given in the OP. Add to that, bare in mind that whilst Flower is indeed focused on grass physics, it is also a fairly low budget indie game, running at 1080p at 60fps on an older platform, and that in any given scene, can have up to 200,000 individual blades of physics affected grass. You have to wonder if given all the negatives and potential pitfalls of Cloud compute, it is really worth it to use the Cloud for such things, when it's evident it can be done just as if not far more competently at a local level, without a game breaking degree of resource cost, especially with the added compute performance and capabilities of the new consoles.

I've no doubt Microsoft and it's developers will talk up Cloud compute/rendering, as they have done since before the console even launched. At this point, they have more pressure to, given that their console is less powerful than their biggest competitor, and anything that could give them a means to divert or bridge that would likely be welcome.

I'm personally still highly skeptical.

 

[foolishoptimist]

At first the argument is that the cloud ☁ is BS and then when its shown to any extent people say well that everyone can do it.

The way cloud was touted early on was what got the BS claims. It's not going to magically make XB1 games 1080p. You couldn't use it for anything integral to your game - unless your game was guaranteed to always be online(which is what MS wanted originally).

I don't expect lots of people to do this, simply because it adds mostly unnecessary complexity to an already complex task of getting your game running well in time for launch.
Sony have bet more on GPGPU for things like this. XB1 has less capacity there, so they may use Cloud to supplement that shortfall. But again, unless your game is online only, you don't want to need it for your game to not look rubbish.

 

[Codeblew]

But it clearly ISNT bs then, and it IS new for consoles.

What? No it is not. The only thing that is new is the buzzword.

 

[jryi]

I don't know why people still need convincing about this... the cloud does help, Respawn developers already mentioned it too about how it lets them do more console side while the server takes care of other stuff.

So it's client-server stuff. I wrote client-server software back in 1996.

 

[Guerrilla]

What? No it is not. The only thing that is new is the buzzword.

Really? was cloud processing for ingame stuff on consoles used last gen already? Not mocking, just curious where.

 

[Codeblew]

Really? was cloud processing for ingame stuff on consoles used last gen already? Not mocking, just curious where.

"Cloud" processing is just doing AI, Physics and other calculations on a server and sending results back to a client. MMO's, FPS's, RTS's, Folding at Home, Etc... have been doing this for decades now. There may be more possibilities now with the advent of GPU computing but the benefits are available to any platform with a network connection. It isn't an advantage that XB1 has over anybody else. The MS Cloud API (not sure what it is called) is probably nothing but a thin layer over one of the standard networking protocols.

 

[Bornstellar]

Where are you getting info it has lower precision collision? From everything I've read the physics calculations seem to be fairly complex. Certainly looks far more realistic than the example given in the OP. Add to that, bare in mind that whilst Flower is indeed focused on grass physics, it is also a fairly low budget indie game, running at 1080p at 60fps on an older platform, and that in any given scene, can have up to 200,000 individual blades of physics affected grass. You have to wonder if given all the negatives and potential pitfalls of Cloud compute, it is really worth it to use the Cloud for such things, when it's evident it can be done just as if not far more competently at a local level, without a game breaking degree of resource cost, especially with the added compute performance and capabilities of the new consoles.

I've no doubt Microsoft and it's developers will talk up Cloud compute/rendering, as they have done since before the console even launched. At this point, they have more pressure to, given that their console is less powerful than their biggest competitor, and anything that could give them a means to divert or bridge that would likely be welcome.

I'm personally still highly skeptical.

Looking at gameplay, you can tell it uses lower-precision collision looking at the way the grass deforms around the petals. It also seems to use looped animation with an axis oriented time offset on the various blades which the petals are not colliding with. Which is how it should be, because that's just smart allocation of resources and the end-result is very convincing.

Okay, but at the end of it, it is just sending TCP or UDP packets to/from server. I guess I just don't understand what value an API would provide. It seems to me that each game would be highly specialized on what it would need and would have to create their own client/server API.



The reason people say it is BS because it is nothing new. Computing things on servers has been going on since the BBS days (before the internet existed).

Evidently. Well developed APIs are incredibly important to developers. It's the difference between having a lighter to start a fire, or a pair of sticks.

 

[wsippel]

The difference is that Microsoft has / is investing in an API that theoretically makes using cloud compute in games far easier to use.

So does Nintendo, this is apparently one of the projects NERD is working on. And I'd be very surprised if Sony wasn't working on stuff like this as well.

 

[FeiRR]

Looks cool but is just a FX and nothing new (destruction in BF games has used server side calculations for some time now). Now, use that power to calculate AI behaviour, that could change the game.

Until your Internet connection drops out because reasons. And remember to pay your subscription because, you know.

 

[Guerrilla]

"Cloud" processing is just doing AI, Physics and other calculations on a server and sending results back to a client. MMO's, FPS's, RTS's, Folding at Home, Etc... have been doing this for decades now. There may be more possibilities now with the advent of GPU computing but the benefits are available to any platform with a network connection. It isn't an advantage that XB1 has over anybody else. The MS Cloud API (not sure what it is called) is probably nothing but a thin layer over one of the standard networking protocols.

I get that, but you basically stated that this has been used in console games before, And I'm curious in which

 

[ypo]

But it clearly ISNT bs then, and it IS new for consoles.

What do you think Folding@Home is on the PS3? Every PS3 was da cloud.

 

[Krilekk]

Hey Kampfheld, why does the grass in your example stop moving while the ball is running over it and only animates before and after?

 

[Zyae]

What do you think Folding@Home is on the PS3? Every PS3 was da cloud.

Was folding@home a game?

 

[Codeblew]

. Well developed APIs are incredibly important to developers. It's the difference between having a lighter to start a fire, or a pair of sticks.

I know what an API is. I have been a developer for over 15 years.

I get that, but you basically stated that this has been used in console games before, And I'm curious in which

Every online multiplayer game does processing on a server which is all the cloud is. Cloud = Server(s).

 

[Iced_Eagle]

"Cloud" processing is just doing AI, Physics and other calculations on a server and sending results back to a client. MMO's, FPS's, RTS's, Folding at Home, Etc... have been doing this for decades now. There may be more possibilities now with the advent of GPU computing but the benefits are available to any platform with a network connection. It isn't an advantage that XB1 has over anybody else. The MS Cloud API (not sure what it is called) is probably nothing but a thin layer over one of the standard networking protocols.

The cloud is not just the concept of client/server networking. Of course, having a solid API is important, but there's more to it. One of the biggest benefits is all of the infrastructure that goes along with it. That's what really sets the cloud apart from your typical on premise server setup. Need 50 more servers to handle the user load? Give it the request and within a few minutes all of your servers are ready to go. User load starting to go back down? It will auto scale things down so you pay the cheapest price possible. Azure can automatically do this nowadays with auto-scale parameters too where you set what your target CPU should be, and it will allocate and deallocate servers to keep it in that range.

Being able to run a cloud platform is crazy expensive, but MS' solution is one of the best so they also earn a lot of money. Only Amazon and Google are in the same ball park in terms of computing power available and worldwide availability. Naturally, this isn't just for gaming, where it's relatively new, and Azure makes most of its money in the enterprise space (57% of the Fortune 500 companies use Azure). So, the advantage is not that its an Xbox itself which provides any benefits (as you mentioned, anything with an internet connection could benefit), it's the fact that it's Microsoft putting its weight behind the idea, and they have a large cloud infrastructure. I'm really hoping Crackdown does well with its implementation. While the dedicated servers devs are using it for is great, I think we all want to see something really unique done with it, and I'm most hopeful for Crackdown. We probably won't see more until E3 2015 sadly, though I would love if they showed it off more at GDC or \\Build.

 

[UnluckyKate]

Still need to explain how the cloud can compute and send back instruction within local cycles.

 

[a Master Ninja]

Is "The Cloud" just an excuse to make singleplayer games online-only? As in you've got to be connected to play Crackdown 3 because they stripped out some physics calculations.

 

[Guerrilla]

Is "The Cloud" just an excuse to make singleplayer games online-only? As in you've got to be connected to play Crackdown 3 because they stripped out some physics calculations.

Why would they need an excuse for doing that? What benefit would it be to have a game only online? Afaik the xb1 isn't hacked so there is no reason to do only online unless it benefits the game...

 

[Codeblew]

The cloud is not just the concept of client/server networking. Of course, having a solid API is important, but there's more to it. One of the biggest benefits is all of the infrastructure that goes along with it. That's what really sets the cloud apart from your typical on premise server setup. Need 50 more servers to handle the user load? Give it the request and within a few minutes all of your servers are ready to go. User load starting to go back down? It will auto scale things down so you pay the cheapest price possible. Azure can automatically do this nowadays with auto-scale parameters too where you set what your target CPU should be, and it will allocate and deallocate servers to keep it in that range.

Being able to run a cloud platform is crazy expensive, but MS' solution is one of the best so they also earn a lot of money. Only Amazon and Google are in the same ball park in terms of computing power available and worldwide availability. Naturally, this isn't just for gaming, where it's relatively new, and Azure makes most of its money in the enterprise space (57% of the Fortune 500 companies use Azure). So, the advantage is not that its an Xbox itself which provides any benefits (as you mentioned, anything with an internet connection could benefit), it's the fact that it's Microsoft putting its weight behind the idea, and they have a large cloud infrastructure. I'm really hoping Crackdown does well with its implementation. While the dedicated servers devs are using it for is great, I think we all want to see something really unique done with it, and I'm most hopeful for Crackdown. We probably won't see more until E3 2015 sadly, though I would love if they showed it off more at GDC or \\Build.

Yes, I agree with what you are saying. I use GCE myself so I know how the modern day infrastructure makes it easy to bring up extra servers in no time to work with increased load when needed. My main point is that this is technology is available to everyone, not just MS. Even Sony could use Azure cloud servers if they wanted to or use their own.

 

[Guerrilla]

I know what an API is. I have been a developer for over 15 years.



Every online multiplayer game does processing on a server which is all the cloud is. Cloud = Server(s).

Yeah but this is about visible in game benefits, so then that is actually new to consoles?

 

[Codeblew]

Yeah but this is about visible in game benefits, so then that is actually new to consoles?

I honestly don't know. I guess we will see. I don't really see the benefits of doing grass physics on a server but hopefully game developers come up with something to wow us. I am skeptical that this much more than PR at the moment. Would like to be proven wrong. So far, we haven't seen anything that couldn't be done on traditional servers.

 

[Shpeshal Nick]

I still have a hard time believing this will actually work without lag. It would be good if MS or some other developer releases some sort of demo you could get off the Xbox Store that will really show that this stuff is real.

Won't it depend on compression and how bandwidth hungry (or latency dependent) the tasks are?

 

[justsomeguy]

Still need to explain how the cloud can compute and send back instruction within local cycles.

Go see any MMO ever. They manage to work ok. Same principle.

 

[Bornstellar]

I know what an API is. I have been a developer for over 15 years.

Then why on earth would you question their importance?

I honestly don't know. I guess we will see. I don't really see the benefits of doing grass physics on a server but hopefully game developers come up with something to wow us. I am skeptical that this much more than PR at the moment. Would like to be proven wrong. So far, we haven't seen anything that couldn't be done on traditional servers.

No one is saying it couldn't be done on traditional servers. It just wouldn't scale well.

 

[JoJo UK]

Gamechanger you may want to add this into your first post for further information;

I know GAF "in general" is very pessimistic about the cloud. And yes, somehow I can understand that - because so far, there weren't that much games that really took advantage of server calculations. To be honest, no new-gen so far really did (Titanfall touched 5% of the possibilities ...). And this is also why I try to be very careful about the words I choose.

No. You can not boost your games resolution with Azure. And no. You can not create better lighting effects with Azure. But, if you focus on it, you can still boost the overall graphical look of your game by a mile. We are currently creating a game. But in fact, we are kind of creating two-in-one. One with Azure available, and one for offline only. Everything you code, you need to code for two scenerarios. This is a ton of work. if online = dynamic grass; if offline=static grass ... To say it very simple. And so on.That's why we are currently thinking about going "online-only". But to be very open to you, we have some fear about that. Obviously. The gaming community is very careful when they hear "online-only" ... Games like Sim City simply ... Well, did it wrong.

If I could show you a screen comparison of our latest build right now - Azure on/off (no, sorry, I can't ...), you would understand what I am talking about. Wind, dynamically moving vegetations, footprints that stay for hours and even wildlife nearly without losing any local CPU power. This is just awesome in the right situations.

I know MS has some own projects in the works, too, that will go all-in with the Azure servers. Crackdown is the already known example.

That's all I can say for now. Really. I'm out here!

Lifted from the original thread.

 

[EASTC0AST_GH05T]

ppl are seriously buying into this cloud PR BS? it wont be used the way they advertise it can be used in none of your favorite upcoming games. What about all the gamers in rural areas with no stable internet?

 

[tuna_love]

ppl are seriously buying into this cloud PR BS? it wont be used the way they advertise it can be used in none of your favorite upcoming games. What about all the gamers in rural areas with no stable internet?

What about them? Should Sony just abandon psnow as well?

 

[Caayn]

Looks cool but is just a FX and nothing new (destruction in BF games has used server side calculations for some time now). Now, use that power to calculate AI behaviour, that could change the game.

Until your Internet connection drops out because reasons. And remember to pay your subscription because, you know.

It's a short demo. Those things you named are perfectly possible, hell Sony is doing completely games with PS Now and so is OnLive.

ppl are seriously buying into this cloud PR BS? it wont be used the way they advertise it can be used in none of your favorite upcoming games. What about all the gamers in rural areas with no stable internet?

As explained before by the dev who posted that GIF. Games can have a online state (where physics calculations are enabled so that the grass reacts to the ball for example) and an offline state (where the ball would just roll/clip through the grass for example).

Quick call Sony, OnLive and the dozens of MMO/MOBA/etc makers that their games are doa.....

 

[King Tubby]

Let's just see the devs/MS put their money where their mouth is with the cloud. I want to see how much of a difference it really makes to a game, and how it works out in practice with the broadband landscape being what it is. Kampfheld's claims are definitely piquing my interest.

 

[JoJo UK]

ppl are seriously buying into this cloud PR BS? it wont be used the way they advertise it can be used in none of your favorite upcoming games. What about all the gamers in rural areas with no stable internet?

Read the quotes from Kampfheld (confirmed OK by Bish) in the OP and my post on this thread.

 

[Guymelef]

I miss this quote in the OP from same user:

I know GAF "in general" is very pessimistic about the cloud. And yes, somehow I can understand that - because so far, there weren't that much games that really took advantage of server calculations. To be honest, no new-gen so far really did (Titanfall touched 5% of the possibilities ...). And this is also why I try to be very careful about the words I choose.

No. You can not boost your games resolution with Azure. And no. You can not create better lighting effects with Azure. But, if you focus on it, you can still boost the overall graphical look of your game by a mile. We are currently creating a game. But in fact, we are kind of creating two-in-one. One with Azure available, and one for offline only. Everything you code, you need to code for two scenerarios. This is a ton of work. if online = dynamic grass; if offline=static grass ... To say it very simple. And so on.That's why we are currently thinking about going "online-only". But to be very open to you, we have some fear about that. Obviously. The gaming community is very careful when they hear "online-only" ... Games like Sim City simply ... Well, did it wrong.

If I could show you a screen comparison of our latest build right now - Azure on/off (no, sorry, I can't ...), you would understand what I am talking about. Wind, dynamically moving vegetations, footprints that stay for hours and even wildlife nearly without losing any local CPU power. This is just awesome in the right situations.

I know MS has some own projects in the works, too, that will go all-in with the Azure servers. Crackdown is the already known example.

That's all I can say for now. Really. I'm out here!

Such a waste a money.

 

[aygomyownroad]

The Cloud will have some great applications in the next few years. Its still in it infancy, but we have seen Drivatars, which would hopefully lead to playing games like COD against Bots who are based on actual players to get you trained for online gaming (This is one thing I really want)

 

[Stare-Bear]

I don't understand why Microsoft didn't launch with a few examples (no, drivatar isn't a good example). They must have decided on the cloud stuff years before launch, that would have given them enough time to make some tech demo's or even games to show it off.

But it's the same with Kinect. They're telling us it's amazing, not showing...

 

[Stare-Bear]

The Cloud will have some great applications in the next few years. Its still in it infancy, but we have seen Drivatars, which would hopefully lead to playing games like COD against Bots who are based on actual players to get you trained for online gaming (This is one thing I really want)

Is drivatar really that different than competing against your "ghost" like many driving games have been doing for years on end?

 

[d9b]

Conceptually very cool. Will remain skeptical until I play a game that uses it to that extent myself.

Excellent point. Don't care anymore about "the potential" of the cloud, that ship has sailed. I want to see it in action, in game and running on XboxOne in real time.

 

[tuna_love]

Is drivatar really that different than competing against your "ghost" like many driving games have been doing for years on end?

Yes it is different.

 

[BigDug13]

Is drivatar really that different than competing against your "ghost" like many driving games have been doing for years on end?

Ghost is simply an exact replica of someone's race on that track. Drivatar is an AI driver that is supposed to have learned your driving tendencies and replicate them.

 

[EASTC0AST_GH05T]

What about them? Should Sony just abandon psnow as well?

Sony has the hardware so no pipe dream cloud physics talk is needed to convince the consumer on the core specs value the consumer will get from the console. Wait until you guys see how cool these grass effects will be utilized in games in 2020 seems interesting to some ppl though I guess.

 

[d9b]

Is drivatar really that different than competing against your "ghost" like many driving games have been doing for years on end?

Nope. Same thing. It's like downloading "Player's DNA" on that snooker /pool game and playing a game against that "player". And there's no cloud involved there. The cloud is full of promise, but as I said no more promises please. We need to see this in action.

 

[p3tran]

Such a waste a money.

are you for real?

 

[Stare-Bear]

Ghost is simply an exact replica of someone's race on that track. Drivatar is an AI driver that is supposed to have learned your driving tendencies and replicate them.

Supposed to doesn't sound really convincing. Would the A.I. driver learn to drive in reverse the whole race if I did?