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[gamechanger87]

Ripped from another thread below is a basic example of some of the stuff being done on the XBO cloud side. It looks like people are starting to actually use the cloud for real processing at least on a basic level.

Has anyone heard anymore about the Cloud demo from Spencer? Anyone seen anything similar other than the Build presentation?

This is what I am allowed to share.

Running in real-time on XBO. Very early wip, so don't care for the lighting and so on. It is a very basic frequency test where the grass splines update 12 times a second. This is nothing special so far. The cool thing is tho that the start and endpoints of our splines influenced by wind and objects are being calculated by Azure. This means: the physic calculations you see are costing us pretty much no local power (excluding GPU ofc). We can use the saved power for other things - like AI, animations and so on. We are very proud of it - especially since we completely eliminated any chance of clipping. I just wanted to add that here.

Spoiler

And no, this won't be a golf/grass/whatever simulator - I just thought maybe it is interesting to see

I know GAF "in general" is very pessimistic about the cloud. And yes, somehow I can understand that - because so far, there weren't that much games that really took advantage of server calculations. To be honest, no new-gen so far really did (Titanfall touched 5% of the possibilities ...). And this is also why I try to be very careful about the words I choose.

No. You can not boost your games resolution with Azure. And no. You can not create better lighting effects with Azure. But, if you focus on it, you can still boost the overall graphical look of your game by a mile. We are currently creating a game. But in fact, we are kind of creating two-in-one. One with Azure available, and one for offline only. Everything you code, you need to code for two scenerarios. This is a ton of work. if online = dynamic grass; if offline=static grass ... To say it very simple. And so on.That's why we are currently thinking about going "online-only". But to be very open to you, we have some fear about that. Obviously. The gaming community is very careful when they hear "online-only" ... Games like Sim City simply ... Well, did it wrong.

If I could show you a screen comparison of our latest build right now - Azure on/off (no, sorry, I can't ...), you would understand what I am talking about. Wind, dynamically moving vegetations, footprints that stay for hours and even wildlife nearly without losing any local CPU power. This is just awesome in the right situations.

I know MS has some own projects in the works, too, that will go all-in with the Azure servers. Crackdown is the already known example.

That's all I can say for now. Really. I'm out here!

Arg. Actually, it was not the plan that this will become a big deal. What you see there is really just a super small-scaled, super simple, super basic test. In reality, we are far more ahead with the tech than what you see there. However, at least some of the comments here motivate us even more to really show what is possible with server calculation

I hope we will be able to share more with you guys next year.

For posterity

Yep, he's okay. Carry on.

 

[Bornstellar]

Conceptually very cool. Will remain skeptical until I play a game that uses it to that extent myself.

 

[scytherage]

I still have a hard time believing this will actually work without lag. It would be good if MS or some other developer releases some sort of demo you could get off the Xbox Store that will really show that this stuff is real.

 

[gamechanger87]

Conceptually very cool. Will remain skeptical until I play a game that uses it to that extent myself.

Fair assessment. And yes the gif frame rate isn't too hot

 

[ChosenPredator]

I still have a hard time believing this will actually work without lag. It would be good if MS or some other developer releases some sort of demo you could get off the Xbox Store that will really show that this stuff is real.

thats a pretty good idea i think to release a demo we can play with a see for ourselves

 

[Squalor]

There can be all the talk and previews and examples in the world.

I'm not buying into it until I see it work with my own eyes right in front of me.

 

[GobFather]

There can be all the talk and previews and examples in the world.

I'm not buying into it until I see it work with my own eyes right in front of me.

plus internet speed and the quality of the cloud function will be limited. In a perfect world, with consistent speed and google fiber speed... this would be awesome.

 

[El_Chino]

Looking forward to it in crackdown.

 

[Bornstellar]

plus internet speed and the quality of the cloud function will be limited. In a perfect world, with consistent speed and google fiber speed... this would be awesome.

IIUC, theoretically ping would be the most important factor since positional / physics data shouldn't be very large.

 

[HORRORSHØW]

cool to see some tangible examples.

 

[kasane]

so what if you don't have net or get disconnected

power of the cloud dream is dead?

 

[bananafactory]

How much of a benefit can it possibly grant, since the game still has to be playable without being connected to the internet?

 

[Karak]

Honestly if they populated a game with true grass everywhere it would make the entire thing worth it. I fucking hate flat texture and grass clumps even just a large improvement would be worth it.
Or just put up a playable level with a character kicking a ball through thick grass. Just to see the interplay. That would be an interesting example.

 

[EBE]

so what if you don't have net or get disconnected

power of the cloud dream is dead?

presumably no physics simulation would occur. the ball would just phase through the grass.

 

[BennyBlanco]

did titanfall on PC harness the power of the cloud for the bot AI?

 

[Guerrilla]

How much of a benefit can it possibly grant, since the game still has to be playable without being connected to the internet?

Does it though? Is destiny playable without being connected to the internet? Is Titanfall?

 

[Alchemy]

And then my Time Warner Cable cuts out and everything hitches and looks like crap. Cloud processing is totally the future, but ISPs are too shitty for it be worth it currently.

 

[nib95]

Honestly if they populated a game with true grass everywhere it would make the entire thing worth it. I fucking hate flat texture and grass clumps even just a large improvement would be worth it.
Or just put up a playable level with a character kicking a ball through thick grass. Just to see the interplay. That would be an interesting example.

Pretty sure it will be done plenty this gen, especially seeing as how it was even done last gen.

 

[Bornstellar]

And then my Time Warner Cable cuts out and everything hitches and looks like crap. Cloud processing is totally the future, but ISPs are too shitty for it be worth it currently.

Guess you aren't planning on playing Destiny then.

Pretty sure it will be done plenty this gen, especially seeing as how it was even done last gen.

We're not talking about grass density. We're talking about grass that has very high-fidelity physics (12 points of articulation vs. 1 (what is used in games which do have some kind of grass physics) simulation and permanence.

 

[Kyuur]

12 times a second is roughly 80~ms ping, which is perfectly doable. I'm guessing they interpolate locally somehow between the actual calculation received by the server and the current state of the splines, so even slightly slower wouldn't be too bad. It would definitely be jarring if you had a temporary spike or loss of connection though, but I guess the general public barely even notices most graphical issues so it's not that big of a deal.

What I don't like is how this is touted as a XBO only feature. Even WiiU should be capable of this, given that it can send and receive packets.

 

[Metalingus5150]

Going to need to see an actual game using it before I'm a believer.

 

[GHG]

Will be interesting to see what speed internet you would need for this sort of thing to actually work.

 

[Guerrilla]

I still have a hard time believing this will actually work without lag. It would be good if MS or some other developer releases some sort of demo you could get off the Xbox Store that will really show that this stuff is real.

Yeah that would def. be the way to go. Just a small scene where you can walk around and enable/disable cloud processing to see the difference. Get on it Phil

 

[nib95]

Guess you aren't planning on playing Destiny then.

We're not talking about grass density. We're talking about grass that has very high-fidelity physics (12 points of articulation vs. 1 (what is used in games which do have some kind of grass physics) simulation and permanence.

Unless I'm mistaken, it doesn't mean that the grass has 12 points of articulation (could have much more or less, I'd imagine more), just that the information regarding their movement is updated 12 times in a second, which doesn't even seem very much to me, seeing as how in a 60fps game like Flower, there would be 60 individual frames that could potentially be updated in just one second.

Also, in the GIF I posted, it's very obvious the grass has considerably more points of articulation than just one.

 

[kitch9]

Guess you aren't planning on playing Destiny then.




We're not talking about grass density. We're talking about grass that has very high-fidelity physics (12 points of articulation vs. 1 (what is used in games which do have some kind of grass physics) simulation and permanence.

I wouldn't play Destiny if my Internet had problems no.

 

[Guerrilla]

Will be interesting to see what speed internet you would need for this sort of thing to actually work.

Well if they are updating 12 times a second, a Ping of 83 would suffice to get it exactly like that, and it probably doesn't kill it if you are one update late, so a ping of 166 would prob. still be ok.

As for bandwith, if you can stream a 360p youtube video you'll be fine

 

[Karak]

Pretty sure it will be done plenty this gen, especially seeing as how it was even done last gen.

Hahahah. No.

Well if they are updating 12 times a second, a Ping of 83 would suffice to get it exactly like that, and it probably doesn't kill it if you are one update late, so a ping of 166 would prob. still be ok.

As for bandwith, if you can stream a 360p youtube video you'll be fine

I am laughing because I just got a damn youtube video that wouldn't stream But ya probably fairly low for that kind of thing. Will be interesting.

I would so die for a game with real grass. I just keep remembering Skyrim and Oblivion screens then you play the game and its clumps everywhere. A good detailed world with hyper grass would be something I would be all over.

 

[Krejlooc]

What I don't like is how this is touted as a XBO only feature. Even WiiU should be capable of this, given that it can send and receive packets.

Cloud computing isn't being touted as an xbox only feature, azure integration is being touted. Which is mainly microsoft announcing that they already have the ground work setup. The WiiU could do this, but Nintendo would need to first create the necessary servers to host this stuff. Microsoft is saying they've already got it ready.

 

[coldone]

What I don't like is how this is touted as a XBO only feature. Even WiiU should be capable of this, given that it can send and receive packets.

Well said.

This was posted so many times. Loud and clear. No one wants to read ...

1) Cloud based rendering wont be free. MS is not going to host 1000s of servers to render via cloud for 3rd party games
2) When cloud infrastructure and GPU with virtualization extensions drops in price, all games will have it.

 

[nib95]

Hahahah. No.

Care to elaborate?

Do you know that each blade of grass in the game is physics based and affected by the wind and other elements? That each blade of grass bends, curves, warps and moves according to specific physics based properties of force and pressure?

 

[Guerrilla]

Unless I'm mistaken, it doesn't mean that the grass has 12 points of articulation (could have much more or less, I'd imagine more), just that the information regarding their movement is updated 12 times in a second, which doesn't even seem very much to me, seeing as how in a 60fps game like Flower, there would be 60 individual frames that could potentially be updated in just one second.

Also, in the GIF I posted, it's very obvious the grass has considerably more points of articulation than just one.

Well flower is basically a dedicated grass simulator It's not like these things couldn't be done isolated without the cloud, but the prospect is, you can do the grass while also doing people walking through the grass

 

[foolishoptimist]

plus internet speed and the quality of the cloud function will be limited. In a perfect world, with consistent speed and google fiber speed... this would be awesome.

It's not necessarily that important. This can be used for subtle interactivity that's not integral to gameplay.

The data requirements for lots of little touches could be quite small, and if it's not a big set piece the player is focused on, you won't necessarily notice lag. It can just be used to increase immersion.

 

[Dragonborn]

The problem with all this cloud stuff is that only MS' studios and maybe their exclusive second party titles will use it.

 

[ypo]

Eh. Flower looks much more impressive on a last gen console. By the way same person confirmed azure is not free for devs. Oops.

 

[Ricerocket]

Really, the only time people will talk about this stuff is when they actually show real world use of it and not limited to very specific tech demo (a building / grass).

Also the guy that posted this grass demo said that once you make money, it costs $$$. It's not free to use.

 

[Bornstellar]

Unless I'm mistaken, it doesn't mean that the grass has 12 points of articulation (could have much more or less, I'd imagine more), just that the information regarding their movement is updated 12 times in a second, which doesn't even seem very much to me, seeing as how in a 60fps game like Flower, there would be 60 individual frames that could potentially be updated in just one second.

Also, in the GIF I posted, it's very obvious the grass has considerably more points of articulation than just one.

You're right I misread. Anyway, AFAIK, Flower seems to use lower-precision collision with no permanence. It's also the only thing it does. And when I'm referring to physics calculations on grass in most games only having one point of articulation, I'm talking about it from a physics sim. perspective that's independent of any additional animation that runs on top.

 

[Karak]

Really, the only time people will talk about this stuff is when they actually show real world use of it and not limited to very specific tech demo (a building / grass).

Also the guy that posted this grass demo said that once you make money, it costs $$$. It's not free to use.

That seems to be a fair prospect and actually a good way to do it.

 

[Quasar]

Cloud computing isn't being touted as an xbox only feature, azure integration is being touted. Which is mainly microsoft announcing that they already have the ground work setup. The WiiU could do this, but Nintendo would need to first create the necessary servers to host this stuff. Microsoft is saying they've already got it ready.

Well they could just go to a provider like amazon. No need for Nintendo (or Sony for that matter) to built its own server infrastructure.

And given things like iCloud partially run on azure, I wonder if they could just use azure themselves. Would be an interesting test of MS neutrality.

 

[Guerrilla]

Well said.

This was posted so many times. Loud and clear. No one wants to read ...

1) Cloud based rendering wont be free. MS is not going to host 1000s of servers to render via cloud for 3rd party games
2) When cloud infrastructure and GPU with virtualization extensions drops in price, all games will have it.

I don't think anyone will dispute that. Of course this is just software, and everyone could do it, however, it seems MS is pushing this more than the other 2 companies (even though we don't know what is happening behind closed doors) and if they are there 1-2 years early with their development and offer it to their devs at a discount of 50% or something like that, predominantly xb1 games will support this in the beginning. Could be that they all start at the same time of course. But I haven't heard power of the cloud from anyone else yet

 

[EBE]

The problem with all this cloud stuff is that only MS' studios and maybe their exclusive second party titles will use it.

thats a problem? it sound like something you advertise and put on the back of your game's box

 

[nib95]

Well flower is basically a dedicated grass simulator It's not like these things couldn't be done isolated without the cloud, but the prospect is, you can do the grass while also doing people walking through the grass

Well, yes. Though you can interact with the grass the same sort of way an NPC might. But the point I'm making is, is Cloud based rendering or compute for such things really that viable given all the potential pitfalls in both development complexity, reliability, and user variables, when we now have consoles with considerably more computational power than the older consoles running such games, and in a generation where GPGPU/Compute is poised to make much more of a difference at a local level?

 

[Wishmaster92]

Cloud computing isn't being touted as an xbox only feature, azure integration is being touted. Which is mainly microsoft announcing that they already have the ground work setup. The WiiU could do this, but Nintendo would need to first create the necessary servers to host this stuff. Microsoft is saying they've already got it ready.

Yep, pretty much this. Hopefully the cloud lives up to expectations and all three companies use it.

Spoiler

I believe in the cloud.

 

[kitch9]

I don't doubt that the cloud is capable of doing calculations, what I do doubt is that it can provide any kind of tangible benefit from a performance and cost perspective over having 5-600 Gigaflops of compute power available locally.

 

[Codeblew]

Cloud computing isn't being touted as an xbox only feature, azure integration is being touted. Which is mainly microsoft announcing that they already have the ground work setup. The WiiU could do this, but Nintendo would need to first create the necessary servers to host this stuff. Microsoft is saying they've already got it ready.

Or they could just use Azure servers as well? Or GCE or Amazon.

 

[Karak]

I don't doubt that the cloud is capable of doing calculations, what I do doubt is that it can provide any kind of tangible benefit from a performance and cost perspective over having 5-600 Gigaflops of compute power available locally.

Ya that will be the interesting part. I mean something like Oblivion where grass settings can drop the FPS by 1/2 if you crank it. Something like this working on that particular problem would be where I would want them to work. On the side stuff like that. It eats up a ton and seems somewhat perfect for this.

But we will see. They seem to think its worth following so it will be interesting where they come out.
Its easy to see so far that current gen can't handle some of these things so if they have to off load some of it and a game would have a normal setting(Skyrim normal) or high(online setting assisted by this) I am cool with that.

 

[barit]

This cloud shit is the biggest blunder in gaming history. This is way worse then the "Super-Computer" Cell chip or other ridiculous PR speak in the past. So people really believe in this? I mean the best example of a usefull cloud is PS Now and their streaming technology. But even that has some critics because it's far away from beeing flawless. Yeah yeah i know the real deal is coming 2016 bla bla. Don't wait for it because in 2016 there are other things that are more Important by then (like VR maybe?).

 

[Ol No Bones]

Well, yes. Though you can interact with the grass the same sort of way an NPC might. But the point I'm making is, is Cloud based rendering or compute for such things really that viable given all the potential pitfalls in both development complexity, reliability, and user variables, when we now have consoles with considerably more computational power than the older consoles running such games, and in a generation where GPGPU/Compute is poised to make much more of a difference at a local level?

If you read the thread that this gif came from the dev mentions the studio now being addicted to azure and its working out rather nicely. That's what he was saying.

 

[Bornstellar]

Or they could just use Azure servers as well? Or GCE or Amazon.

The difference is that Microsoft has / is investing in an API that theoretically makes using cloud compute in games far easier to use.

 

[Guerrilla]

Well, yes. Though you can interact with the grass the same sort of way an NPC might. But the point I'm making is, is Cloud based rendering or compute for such things really that viable given all the potential pitfalls in both development complexity, reliability, and user variables, when we now have consoles with considerably more computational power than the older consoles running such games, and in a generation where GPGPU/Compute is poised to make much more of a difference at a local level?

Yeah but imagine having 20 npc's in there and something happening in the sky and so on (you get my point)

And you are right, it is indeed the question if this is viable, however, we currently only have Kampfhelds posts to go by and as a confirmed dev. he seems to see a definite benefit. So for now I'll take that over speculation.

 

[StoopKid]

This is one of those things where I'll believe it when I see it in a game on my internet.