• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

#GAMERGATE: The Threadening [Read the OP] -- #StopGamerGate2014

Status
Not open for further replies.

Fantastapotamus

Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
Don't know where it's from exactly, got it from Danny O'Dwyers tumblr.

"It’s disgusting. It’s fucking disgusting. And I’m sick of it, I’m sick of watching it happen, and I’m sick of dancing around the notion that this is something that we can or can’t address. If we can’t just come out and say that this is a fucking horrible nightmare that doesn’t deserve to continue to happen, that doesn’t deserve to have to continue to be championed by anyone, I don’t even know what we’re doing anymore."— Alex Navarro on GamerGate (x)
 

tchocky

Member
Don't know where it's from exactly, got it from Danny O'Dwyers tumblr.

"It’s disgusting. It’s fucking disgusting. And I’m sick of it, I’m sick of watching it happen, and I’m sick of dancing around the notion that this is something that we can or can’t address. If we can’t just come out and say that this is a fucking horrible nightmare that doesn’t deserve to continue to happen, that doesn’t deserve to have to continue to be championed by anyone, I don’t even know what we’re doing anymore."— Alex Navarro on GamerGate (x)

It's from Monday's bombing in the am podcast.
 

Zerokku

WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?
he sounds like a goddamn Taliban. hope he gets locked up.

I am genuinly curious how the everliving fuck feminism has "ruined" his life. Like that the hell are you experiencing that is so life-ruining in the current wave of feminism.
 

Buzzman

Banned
This fuckhead in Utah is threatening to shoot up Utah State if they have Anita speak tomorrow:

http://www.standard.net/Police/2014...dent-threatens-act-of-terror-if-feminist.html

What is wrong with people. Why did this have to come to my state too.

I'm not saying anything, but do we know if this is real? Wouldn't surprise me if it was done for attention. In any case, how can she not expect stuff like this with the garbage she's spouting!

COGNITIVE DISSONANCE
 
You need to pull a MGS2 advertise a game with all male leads voiced by Nolan North, David Hayter and Michael Ironside and then at the end of the tutorial have three female characters kill the men and takeover as playable characters. Gender swap all the roles so women have all the powerful positions in the game and make men the strippers, waiters and weak characters who have to be recognised. As a side game you could include a port of Depression Quest.

Nah man, if you do that they will be turned off way too quickly. We need them to bond to this character throughout the game and after the last boss is killed does the main character finally look at herself in a mirror to see all the dirt and grime on her face, let out a sigh and the camera pans away as she flies off in a helicopter, her hair blowing in the wind.
 

The Foul

Member
Curious to see informed peoples opinions on the Huffington Post stream a few hours ago. I cannot for the life of me wrap my head around this issue but still attempt to follow it.
 
To what extent can criticism be fairly criticized? What's the line? Does the reception of reviews follow a different set of rules than the games being reviewed? For example, can one say "find a different review", but not "find a different game"? Of course, this isn't limited to the more extreme notion that such criticism shouldn't exist, but what about the less extreme point of views, that the review is merely bad (based on bad ideas/trends) or contains problematic elements (in a comparison to games, this sounds familiar).

I think constructive criticism of anything is always welcome. If we're talking about Gies' Bayonetta article, I think readers who disagree with his take should feel free to offer their rebuttal. You could attack it from many angles, and so long as you are justifying your arguments, I think it's fine. Maybe your opinion is "I think she's a strong female character and here are my reasons." Maybe your opinion is "Yeah, some of the sexualization may seem gratuitous, but I'm okay with that because of these reasons." Maybe you agree that her design is problematic, but you think "the gameplay is a blast to play and the presentation grows on you over time."

There are even more opinions out there than I accounted for. The short of it is that all are welcome. What would we like to see less of? "I don't want social justice crap in my reviews!" This isn't constructive, and people are often wildly off the mark anyway in terms of a reviewers responsibility in reviewing a game. And by that, I simply mean that there is no one-size-fits-all approach to writing a review of games, or any piece of entertainment. That doesn't mean that every opinion is equally as valid as any other opinion. It can surely be argued that some people present their arguments better than others. But it's not constructive to entirely deride something just because you disagree with one facet of their perspective.
 

jstripes

Banned
It should not surprise you that a lot of the statements made by GamerGate are mostly people one step from breaking character while discussing ethics to tell Jessica to fuck off for not going to that Weezer concert with me.

Ya, I had one Gater break character and say that the whole thing was cathartic because some girl cheated on him once, before getting back into character and denying it was about that.
 

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
I am genuinly curious how the everliving fuck feminism has "ruined" his life. Like that the hell are you experiencing that is so life-ruining in the current wave of feminism.

The threat cited the Montreal massacre, which was committed by Marc Lépine in 1989:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Lépine
After several months of planning, Lépine entered the École Polytechnique de Montréal, on the afternoon of December 6, 1989. He had long complained about women working in non-traditional jobs, and after separating men and women in a classroom, he shot the women, claiming that he was fighting feminism. He then moved into other parts of the building, targeting women as he went, before killing himself. His suicide note blamed feminists for ruining his life.
Lépine murdered women who were studying engineering. Basically, it's a "they took my jerb" kind of thing.
 

Riposte

Member
I think the moment criticism falls in the camp of "this shouldn't exist" or "this should not ever be mentioned in criticism" an absurdly thin line is being walked.

I honestly do believe that reviewers should be extremely *informed* and if they voice opinions that don't seem particularly informed or well-argued it's fair to be critical of criticism for that reason.

I'm trying not to limit the scope of what I'm saying here, especially to something as easy to agree with as you put it. More than just being "well made", what if they have "bad ideas"; like a game can be an excellent execution of something you detest, which is an idea being defended in the first place. So we have people who dislike the comment Gies made about Bayonetta 2's sexualized imagery, or maybe instead the extent that it mattered - whatever makes this point more interesting to discuss. Let's say they don't believe it shouldn't exist (nor get caught up in an "objectivity" semantics argument), but instead that it is just bad idea, a weaker form of criticism. They criticize it.
 

axisofweevils

Holy crap! Today's real megaton is that more than two people can have the same first name.
http://deadspin.com/the-future-of-the-culture-wars-is-here-and-its-gamerga-1646145844
Another good summary and an interesting / disturbing tidbit:

This has proved effective enough to get Intel to keel over, and it won't be surprising if it works on other companies, too. A representative of one of the companies targeted by the daily boycotts said that they'd received about 1,000 emails so far, more than half of which were pro-Gamergate. The only comparable online flare-up any of the representatives interviewed could remember is SOPA—the Stop Online Piracy Act, one of the most universally panned pieces of legislation in recent memory. This is how a very few people can get their way, and the use of this technique is one of the many similarities between Gamergate and the ever-present aggrieved reactionaries whose most recent manifestation is the Tea Party.
 

Menome

Member
Guys... this gives me an idea... we need to write a gaming script that will utterly make #GG think we are on their side but in a dastardly plot twist we show the hero to actually be a bad ass female.

Let's call it " Me, Troi'd ". It'll be about Deanna Troi from Star Trek: The Next Generation running around in space armour and blasting stuff
 
I'm trying not to limit the scope of what I'm saying here, especially to something as easy to agree with as you put it. More than just being "well made", what if they have "bad ideas"; like a game can be an excellent execution of something you detest, which is an idea being defended in the first place. So we have people who dislike the comment Gies made about Bayonetta 2's sexualized imagery, or maybe instead the extent that it mattered - whatever makes this point more interesting to discuss. Let's say they don't believe it shouldn't exist (nor get caught up in an "objectivity" semantics argument), but instead that it is just bad idea, a weaker form of criticism. They criticize it.

I'm gonna require more of a definition on "weaker form of criticism" as I'm drawing a blank there.

What would make a form of criticism "weaker" ?
 

MYeager

Member
To what extent can criticism be fairly criticized? What's the line? Does the reception of reviews follow a different set of rules than the games being reviewed? For example, can one say "find a different review", but not "find a different game"? Of course, this isn't limited to the more extreme notion that such criticism shouldn't exist, but what about the less extreme point of views, that the review is merely bad (based on bad ideas/trends) or contains problematic elements (in a comparison to games, this sounds familiar).

Constructive criticism should always be fine. There are a number of things that bother me about some video game writers in reviews, in tone or description, etc. I've seen reviews that have been packed with buzzwords to the point that it made what they were describing more obtuse than clear. As long as you use the kind of respect you'd hope you would get if someone commented on anything you put time and effort into you should be a-ok. Some reviewers might still go on the defensive, but most do this because they love video games and writing and want to do their best for their audience.
 

JackDT

Member
Curious to see informed peoples opinions on the Huffington Post stream a few hours ago. I cannot for the life of me wrap my head around this issue but still attempt to follow it.

I don't think it was a reasonable format to get the person running 8chan to 'debate' someone doxxed on 8chan. Like what could possible come of this?

The conversation amounted to:

'You're acting like a jerk.'
'I am within the legal limits of the law.'

ok so... what now?

The same guy just posted, "Yes, would not surprise me at all if she "doxed" herself for attention."
 

Mesoian

Member
I don't think it was a reasonable format to get the person running 8chan to 'debate' someone doxxed on 8chan. Like what could possible come of this?

The conversation amounted to:

'You're acting like a jerk.'
'I am within the legal limits of the law.'

ok so... what now?

The same guy just posted, "Yes, would not surprise me at all if she "doxed" herself for attention."


I can't even make that joke because it's a spoiler.

edf791b40d4b6d2744974e4e171af9da.jpg
 

Nekofrog

Banned
Let's call it " Me, Troi'd ". It'll be about Deanna Troi from Star Trek: The Next Generation running around in space armour and blasting stuff

no. just no. deanna troi episodes are the worst.

I don't think it was a reasonable format to get the person running 8chan to 'debate' someone doxxed on 8chan. Like what could possible come of this?

The conversation amounted to:

'You're acting like a jerk."
'I am within the legal limits of the law.'

ok? The same guy just posted, "Yes, would not surprise me at all if she "doxed" herself for attention."

"I've been under constant harassment for --"
"CAN YOU PROVE IT WAS GAMER GATE"
"If you lo --"
"CAN YOU PROVE IT"
"Various blo -"
"NAH YOU CANT PROVE IT FALSE FLAG"
 

CLEEK

Member
How does anyone in gamergate not see how laughable it makes them look to vigorously defend "friendzoning" as an idea? There's no better way for them to telegraph that their views on sex politics are derived from frustration over not getting laid.

That's absolutely at the heart of it for it for many. And my feeling was it was always at the core of the Zoe Quinn stuff. If you're socially awkward / not in relationships / able to fulfil your sexual needs, it seems to go hand in hand with resentment toward women who are promiscuous. The venom in the InternetAritocrat's voice when he kept saying 'and she fucked five guys' made me wince.

They desire women, but can't connect with them, fuelling resentment.
 
I am genuinly curious how the everliving fuck feminism has "ruined" his life. Like that the hell are you experiencing that is so life-ruining in the current wave of feminism.

women rejecting his awesomeness apparently...

these GamerGate nutballs (not the sane ones) are just like that guy who shot up a party because girls rejected him in California (don't remember the name).

Anyone associated with GG should be rethinking wth they are doing with their lives at this point.
 

Phil S.

Banned
I can definitely see most of these GamerGate folks as bitter men who still haven't gotten over being rejected/ignored by the pretty girl in high school.

I can definitely not see how that makes it alright to threaten people's lives.
 

Noaloha

Member
The Utah threat, I mean by the definitions I keep that's just straight up terrorism right? I'm not up on my US systems. Does that mean it will be treated as a Federal issue, etc..?
 
women rejecting his awesomeness apparently...

these GamerGate nutballs (not the sane ones) are just like that guy who shot up a party because girls rejected him in California (don't remember the name).

Anyone associated with GG should be rethinking wth they are doing with their lives at this point.
Elliot Rodger.

If anyone tries to claim that online death threats shouldn't be taken seriously because "real killers" don't post about it beforehand... well.... there you go. I mean, I'm sure most death threats are "just" from assholes trying to terrorize their target, but you can't deny that there are nutjobs out there who might be completely serious about their intentions.
 
D

Deleted member 126221

Unconfirmed Member
The threat cited the Montreal massacre, which was committed by Marc Lépine in 1989:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Lépine

Lépine murdered women who were studying engineering. Basically, it's a "they took my jerb" kind of thing.

Was about to post how this treat reminded me of this...

This is seriously sending chills down my spine. I hope this guy is behind bars soon, and this fucking misogynistic shitstorm is behind us soon. Gamergaters might argue that the guy who sent that treat is "only a bad apple", "does not represent gamergate", gnn gnn gnn, but they ARE contributing to that disgusting anti-feminist atmosphere and WILL be partly responsible when/if a nutjob decides to act.

This whole situation is making me sick. And these people act offended when it's insinuated that the word "gamer" might be negatively tainted. Uh, no shit.
 
The Utah threat, I mean by the definitions I keep that's just straight up terrorism right? I'm not up on my US systems. Does that mean it will be treated as a Federal issue, etc..?

Honestly that depends considering who may have typed it. There was an incident where a white christian man flew his little single sitter plane into a tax office and the media tried their best not to label it terrorism.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/man-angry-at-irs-crashes-plane-into-office/

http://www.foxnews.com/story/2010/0...-texas-building-in-apparent-anti-irs-suicide/
 
I don't think it was a reasonable format to get the person running 8chan to 'debate' someone doxxed on 8chan. Like what could possible come of this?

The conversation amounted to:

'You're acting like a jerk.'
'I am within the legal limits of the law.'

ok so... what now?

The same guy just posted, "Yes, would not surprise me at all if she "doxed" herself for attention."
The very idea of a debate was so stupid. I really hate this middle ground bullshit where somehow everything and its opposite are equivalent.
It's that scene in OSS117 Lost in Rio where Dujardin says "I dream of a world where Nazis and Jews can live together peacefully". It's that clueless, really.
 

L Thammy

Member
I can definitely see most of these GamerGate folks as bitter men who still haven't gotten over being rejected/ignored by the pretty girl in high school.

I can definitely not see how that makes it alright to threaten people's lives.

Firstly, we're better off attacking the position rather than the people. It's really easy to do both.
Secondly, there's a good chance that they're still in high school.

Was about to post how this treat reminded me of this...

This is seriously sending chills down my spine. I hope this guy is behind bars soon, and this fucking misogynistic shitstorm is behind us soon. Gamergaters might argue that the guy who sent that treat is "only a bad apple", "does not represent gamergate", gnn gnn gnn, but they ARE contributing to that disgusting anti-feminist atmosphere and WILL be partly responsible when/if a nutjob decides to act.

This whole situation is making me sick. And these people act offended when it's insinuated that the word "gamer" might be negatively tainted. Uh, no shit.

You know, at this point, it's pretty clear that a lot of gamers are horrible people. There's a lot of good in the gaming community, that should be zeroed in on and supported. Are gamers as a whole something worth admiring? I'm kind of leaning on no right now.
 

Phil S.

Banned
Firstly, we're better off attacking the position rather than the people. It's really easy to do both.
Secondly, there's a good chance that they're still in high school.

Yes, you're absolutely right. It's so easy to get caught up in anger that I attack the people and not the position. I apologize!
 
Oh god so I posted the Standard.net article about the USU threat on a FB debate group... that was just a bad idea...

Some guy is claiming she more than likely did it herself to get attention. WTF is wrong with this world.
 

Aeana

Member
Oh god so I posted the Standard.net article about the USU threat on a FB debate group... that was just a bad idea...

Some guy is claiming she more than likely did it herself to get attention. WTF is wrong with this world.
Get used to it; it's one of the standard retorts to things like this. :(
 
Get used to it; it's one of the standard retorts to things like this. :(

But how the hell is that a standard retort?! How can anyone make a logical leap to think someone would do that? My mind is literally trying to wrap itself around the thought process needed to even come to such a conclusion.
 

zeldablue

Member
"to be truly tolerant, please be tolerant of the intolerant!"

lmao

I think:

You should be tolerant to those who are intolerant.

But I don't think:

You should tolerant intolerance.

I think if we want progress we need to debate by using more "I feel as though..." and less "you." Just that shift in tone can actually make people listen a bit better to what you're trying to say.

I realize that's "tone policing" but it also helps alleviate tension during any arguments by quite a bit.
 

NateDrake

Member
We're all living inside Haruhi Sarkeesian's feminist daydream.

Hahahaha.....great reference.

I wonder if things will become as "controversial" when people discover that game journalists date other game journalists. It shouldn't be an issue, but it seems like something some would find fault with.
 
Secondly, there's a good chance that they're still in high school.

That's possible for some who have probably gotten swept up in the latest Twitter/YouTube trend, but don't brush under the rug the fact that a lot of people doing the harassing are adult males out of high school and possibly even with college degrees. You want to say that they're in high school because it makes you comfortable; it allows you to believe that these kids will change, but that's not always true. Some of these people are adults with minds that will not be changing. I'm sure those calling in bomb threats and doxxing are fully grown adults who need to be reprimanded for their actions.
 

Riposte

Member
I'm gonna require more of a definition on "weaker form of criticism" as I'm drawing a blank there.

What would make a form of criticism "weaker" ?

Weaker is open-ended, depending on the individual. "It's worse" to whatever extent, but not necessarily "wrong" or "bad", hence why I used the term weaker. An example could be something like focusing on a part of a game too much or too little. This judgment call can extend to an entire methodology, thus a "form of criticism".

I think constructive criticism of anything is always welcome. If we're talking about Gies' Bayonetta article, I think readers who disagree with his take should feel free to offer their rebuttal. You could attack it from many angles, and so long as you are justifying your arguments, I think it's fine. Maybe your opinion is "I think she's a strong female character and here are my reasons." Maybe your opinion is "Yeah, some of the sexualization may seem gratuitous, but I'm okay with that because of these reasons." Maybe you agree that her design is problematic, but you think "the gameplay is a blast to play and the presentation grows on you over time."

There are even more opinions out there than I accounted for. The short of it is that all are welcome. What would we like to see less of? "I don't want social justice crap in my reviews!" This isn't constructive, and people are often wildly off the mark anyway in terms of a reviewers responsibility in reviewing a game. And by that, I simply mean that there is no one-size-fits-all approach to writing a review of games, or any piece of entertainment. That doesn't mean that every opinion is equally as valid as any other opinion. It can surely be argued that some people present their arguments better than others. But it's not constructive to entirely deride something just because you disagree with one facet of their perspective.

Can't say I disagree with anything you've said. I feel it is very unfortunate how poor the level of discourse can be among enthusiasts, even if I like the ideas they are trying to say, as we've often seen in review threads (and this is of course in no way limited to a specific type of criticism in those reviews). That said, I think the response to their inarticulate, if not incendiary, opinions can be too simplistic, like "why do you even care what a review says?", which makes me wonder what is considered acceptable, particularly in respect to what's an acceptable way to criticize games (the initial argument) as a guideline.

Personally, individual reviews are less important to me than the establishing of ideals on a wider scale, questions along the lines of "what is art in context of videogames? or "What does it mean to 'elevate' the medium?". "Maturity", "trash", "exploitation", "culture", etc. To me, that's all about challenging forms of criticism (the norms and virtues they create) and I find it very appealing, if not a necessity, to engage (reviews are merely the execution of these ideals). To be optimistic about who I'm talking about, I think when someone sees a review like Gies's, or even just the points he made or how he made them, they might feel the same way, only to have no real concept on how to engage that (for example, their appeal for "objectivity" to me appears more of a misstep than a dead end, the subjective nature of reality doesn't really undo what they are really trying to get at; objectivity often sounds more like a call for expertise or a set of priorities that they feel is much more relevant for the experience the medium provides.).

In any case, I do think that what is considered "constructive" can fluctuate based on the contention at play. So, this is also why I invoked game criticism. Someone says this game has problematic elements, someone then says that review has problematic elements. I think it's very easy to frame either as trying to extinguish their target even when both are written fairly neutrally or imply little in the way of conclusions ("This review sucks!" is a lame contribution, but not exactly calling for its censorship). As such, you can only be so "welcoming", especially when people are butting heads on how to talk about games (including the notion that all reviews are equally valuable).
 

L Thammy

Member
Some of the most vocal and visible proponents are grown "men"

That's possible for some who have probably gotten swept up in the latest Twitter/YouTube trend, but don't brush under the rug the fact that a lot of people doing the harassing are adult males out of high school and possibly even with college degrees. You want to say that they're in high school because it makes you comfortable; it allows you to believe that these kids will change, but that's not always true. Some of these people are adults with minds that will not be changing. I'm sure those calling in bomb threats and doxxing are fully grown adults who need to be reprimanded for their actions.

That was meant as a tongue-in-cheek comment. Though there was an earlier post about a high school teacher's students talking to him about the Quinnspiracy. That was kind of funny.
 
Honestly that depends considering who may have typed it. There was an incident where a white christian man flew his little single sitter plane into a tax office and the media tried their best not to label it terrorism.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/man-angry-at-irs-crashes-plane-into-office/

http://www.foxnews.com/story/2010/0...-texas-building-in-apparent-anti-irs-suicide/

I remember that day. Because that was the building next to where I used to work, saw it first hand.

The media did all they could to downplay it, and now it's mostly forgotten.
 

Erevador

Member
Right now, I'm just glad that Nathan Fillion didn't involved along with Baldwin. That would just be heartbreaking.
That would never happen. Nathan is a chill guy who is enlightened, gentle, and great with fans. Adam Baldwin is a really talented actor, and a completely and totally irredeemably insane person. He is totally on his own planet. And unfortunately, it's not a cool frontier planet where people say "gorram" and wear hats like this.
giphy.gif
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom