In no terms is he saying that both sides have equal validity. The content of the letter should make that clear. If you're saying there's no grounds for criticism at all for some reacting to GamerGate, then I'll have to simply disagree with you. I don't believe a side is "weakened" when a sincere and valid criticism is made. That's how a movement or a response to one strengthens its position.
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Giantbomb Letter from the Editor Re: Gamergate
- Thread starter Gestault
- Start date
In no terms is he saying that both sides have equal validity. The content of the letter should make that clear. If you're saying there's no grounds for criticism at all for some reacting to GamerGate, then I'll have to simply disagree with you. I don't believe a side is "weakened" when a sincere and valid criticism is made. That's how a movement or a response to one strengthens its position.
EDIT: I realize I was wrong. While I still think that GamerGate has people apart of it that aren't using it for bad things, the movement itself is bad, and I don't think I agree with Jeff on ignoring that aspect of the movement.
Brawndo Addict
Banned
Refusing to acknowledge a baseless claim or argument (this game reviewer is being directly paid off by developers) is not the same as refusing to acknowledge a campaign of harassment or abuse directed at one's peers.
I see no functional reason Jeff felt he had to write something now if silence was the 'best' option to legitimize. Did we suddenly have one death threat too many or something? What changed that made it necessary to express this opinion if the silence argument was their default.
I see no functional reason Jeff felt he had to write something now if silence was the 'best' option to legitimize. Did we suddenly have one death threat too many or something? What changed that made it necessary to express this opinion if the silence argument was their default.
7DollarHagane
Banned
I think jeffs point is that they felt that anything they could say would be hollow and obvious. Not giving that group the time of day is sometimes the greatest insult.
I don't think the "Silence might also be not letting a campaign of hate and chaos be taken seriously by not giving it a place at the table." approach achieves much of appreciable net worth without first directing a sharp and dismissive "go away" to the thing you're giving the silent treatment.
That said, I liked Jeff's letter overall. And I enjoy having the opportunity to critique the smaller nuances of his letter, like adults, without any hint of pitchforks. It's neat.
(Is the following off-topic or not? Not sure.) Yesterday was a good day for these public stances being shown, with articles also coming from Gamespot and Polygon. For what's it's worth, I think Polygon's piece knocked it out of the park, so unafraid was it to go into the specifics of #GG's crap. By comparison I found Gamespot's letter more than a little milquetoast and by-the-numbers-ey. I can't recall specifically (apologies if I'm off on this) but I'm not sure if it even mentioned #Gamergate. I think it may have just condemned harassment. Which is.. yeah? If you're not specifying #Gamergate, I feel you're missing the point of the requests for speaking up.
That said, I liked Jeff's letter overall. And I enjoy having the opportunity to critique the smaller nuances of his letter, like adults, without any hint of pitchforks. It's neat.
(Is the following off-topic or not? Not sure.) Yesterday was a good day for these public stances being shown, with articles also coming from Gamespot and Polygon. For what's it's worth, I think Polygon's piece knocked it out of the park, so unafraid was it to go into the specifics of #GG's crap. By comparison I found Gamespot's letter more than a little milquetoast and by-the-numbers-ey. I can't recall specifically (apologies if I'm off on this) but I'm not sure if it even mentioned #Gamergate. I think it may have just condemned harassment. Which is.. yeah? If you're not specifying #Gamergate, I feel you're missing the point of the requests for speaking up.
Thankfully, many did make immediate responses to the events. And more importantly:
Maybe in real life, but this is the internet. Where harrasing and making threats require little effort. Do you honestly think that the people doing this are just going to go and say "Well they are making some good points. We should stop now." The only time they will stop is when they stop getting a kick out of it. Its the arguing with them that drives them even more and more.
mullet2000
Member
I've always struggled with the issues of silence and compliance.
On one hand, ignoring issues like sexism and harassment does an extreme disservice to women who are suffering from that harassment. It makes it seem like you don't think those issues are worth getting behind and educating people about, and that's awful. People should be educated about what is happening to women on the internet.
On the other hand what people like the gamersgate-ers live and feed off of is attention. In response to the harassment of Anita Sarkeessian being on the front page of The New Yorker this week I've seen many statements along the lines of "Ha, see what the harrassers did, they tried to silence her and now her story is front page news. That blew up in their face." On the contrary I think many of the harassers could not be more ecstatic that their harassment was so effective that it became such a big news story. These people absolutely adore that their harassment can cause responses like that. Even something as small as a reply to their vitriol over twitter is exactly the ego boost that these people want. It makes them feel good. It gives them the attention they're looking for.
So, honestly, I don't know what the answer is here. I don't think that the people doing this harassment can just be reasoned with or educated. They know what they're doing and why they're doing it. And I can only imagine that they love that people are talking about them. Yet at the same time we cannot just ignore the issues that women are facing on the internet. Short of removing all forms of anonymity - no matter how remote - from the internet...I don't know what we can do about this.
So I don't lament Jeff for talking about silence in the way that he did because I think it's a very difficult issue. Furthermore the fact that he wrote this at all, and the tone of the rest of the letter, show that he knows that complete silence is not the answer either.
On one hand, ignoring issues like sexism and harassment does an extreme disservice to women who are suffering from that harassment. It makes it seem like you don't think those issues are worth getting behind and educating people about, and that's awful. People should be educated about what is happening to women on the internet.
On the other hand what people like the gamersgate-ers live and feed off of is attention. In response to the harassment of Anita Sarkeessian being on the front page of The New Yorker this week I've seen many statements along the lines of "Ha, see what the harrassers did, they tried to silence her and now her story is front page news. That blew up in their face." On the contrary I think many of the harassers could not be more ecstatic that their harassment was so effective that it became such a big news story. These people absolutely adore that their harassment can cause responses like that. Even something as small as a reply to their vitriol over twitter is exactly the ego boost that these people want. It makes them feel good. It gives them the attention they're looking for.
So, honestly, I don't know what the answer is here. I don't think that the people doing this harassment can just be reasoned with or educated. They know what they're doing and why they're doing it. And I can only imagine that they love that people are talking about them. Yet at the same time we cannot just ignore the issues that women are facing on the internet. Short of removing all forms of anonymity - no matter how remote - from the internet...I don't know what we can do about this.
So I don't lament Jeff for talking about silence in the way that he did because I think it's a very difficult issue. Furthermore the fact that he wrote this at all, and the tone of the rest of the letter, show that he knows that complete silence is not the answer either.
When #GG thinks having a left wing opinion is 'corruption' it completely negates any legitimacy you want to give it.
It's clear none of the REAL concerns about the game press have any meaning to #GG because they don't push that angle. They keep pushing the leftwing=corrupt angle which is absurd.
The tension you describe is also stupid. What happens is the audience has extreme and specific expectations. Game X is a 10/10 but the critics didn't give it a 10. RAGE.... or Game Y is obviously a 1/10 because it is exclusive to a platform I don't own but this guys gave it a 8/10. RAGE...
The game press has some core structural issues but they're intrinsic and impossible to change because of the size and nature of it. It's an enthusiast press.
#GG has no legitimate angle. The closest they get is to point at obvious things that were always there and are unfixable because of the very nature of the games press.
How exactly did this whole GamerGate thing start? The first I heard about this was right after the events of a woman named Quinn allegedly sleeping with other men who happen to be reviewers/critics that praised her work on Depression Quest.
Was that event the cause of this whole thing? Can anyone fill me in because I feel so out of the loop with this.
Was that event the cause of this whole thing? Can anyone fill me in because I feel so out of the loop with this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
I'm just learning about the whole #GG movement and controversy but if you disagree with their ideas and motives (which for the most part from what I gather, are just people for ethical discourse in journalism and against bias in gaming news sites among other things), try arguing against their ideas rather than smearing #GG supporters as all filthy misogynists.
Granted I'm pretty ambivalent to the whole movement on both sides but there do appear to be level headed people in the #GG movement (Adam Baldwin for one) who I'm sure don't ascribe to the whole "burn the feminists" or agree with sending death threats. Don't persecute the many for a few idiots.
I've ignored this bullshit because it's stupid. I'll go back to ignoring it after this post because I feel that it is exactly what Gerstmann said: pointless, childish, destructive, hateful, and, lately, outright disgusting with the death threats.
My post is simply to say that I think this is a well written piece by Gerstmann.
My post is simply to say that I think this is a well written piece by Gerstmann.
So what? If there were a group arguing for a higher minimum wage, but a minority of whom were skulking about and murdering & eating babies, wouldn't that be a clue to any sane supporters of the group that maybe it's a good time to disengage?
That's the argument Jeff is making, basically to say "if you're in #GamerGate to improve the ethics of gaming, then that's great, but you are actively working against your goals by continuing to associate with what has become seen as a hate group."
It is obviously well past the point of redemption. If you want to go improve game ethics, then you need to start a new fucking club. Whether or not "#GamerGate has changed over time", even if it's moderated or broadened, is a complete red herring and not relevant to anything.
But Giant Bomb, Polygon, IGN, Gamespot didn't. Some of the most popular gaming websites. Which is what we are talking about in this thread on the matter of staying Silent in a culture you are reporting on.
EDIT: I realize I was wrong. While I still think that GamerGate has people apart of it that aren't using it for bad things, the movement itself is bad, and I don't think I agree with Jeff on ignoring that aspect of the movement. I wish I could delete posts, I do feel like my original posts were just a waste of time. I'll do a better job thinking next time before I post. Sorry again folks.
Zomba13
Member
Yeah. There are legitimate issues to discuss with regards to the ethics in games journalism and what can be done to improve trust muddled in with the misogynistic hate speech but it would be better if they had a new campaign for it. You have some people that stop the gamergate stuff when they find out its origins but you also have some who say it's just some bad apples or that it's exaggerated by the media or something and instead tick with it. Then of course you have the ones that actually just use gamergate as a cover for their misogyny and harassment and don't care about the actual "issues".
The message was ok. It does take a different tact by just acknowledging some people's minds won't be changed. Hopefully by not trying to convince them that they are wrong they can notice the conflicting agendas, one is designed to harass and subjugate women and the other is about rooting out corruption. Hopefully those in the latter finally take notice the corruption in their own movement.
Their ideas are insipid nonsense. I've done it and it just runs into 9 page dissections of how insane they are. That wastes my time and there is no point to it. Adam Baldwin is nowhere near a level headed person and he's exactly what #GG is. Far right wing people who use the mob to harass people they disagree with.
The core logic that #GG has is so fundamentally flawed that nothing they say has any real meaning. It's 100% rhetoric tricks. Even your post is a 'don't call us out. that's not fair. Instead just give me legitimacy and pretend I have a point.'
ReturnOfTheRAT
Member
Speed bump is right. For better and at this time worse, the industry needs to go through this and will come out the other side. Games themselves haven't crumbled. They're still being made. People are still playing them. The scum that have co-opted the term haven't are only hurting themselves at this point. And if they feel like their "winning" then let their depravity hit the front pages of news sites...it will only serve to diminish their faux-plight and shine the light on how wrong-headed their ideals are.
moondoggerr
Banned
There's a document in support of something you believe in. You can either:
1) appreciate it for what it is and be satisfied that it addresses 99% of your concerns
2) Denigrate it because it wasn't absolutely perfect in your eyes and completely in line with every aspect of your opinion.
One of these options leads to larger understanding. One of them leads to more confusion and splintering.
Just because Martin Luther King didn't believe in armed struggle doesn't mean that "Letter from a Birmingham Jail" is a suspect piece of writing.
Giant Bomb is a very influential site. I am happy that have provided a unified, clear statement of their position on this.
1) appreciate it for what it is and be satisfied that it addresses 99% of your concerns
2) Denigrate it because it wasn't absolutely perfect in your eyes and completely in line with every aspect of your opinion.
One of these options leads to larger understanding. One of them leads to more confusion and splintering.
Just because Martin Luther King didn't believe in armed struggle doesn't mean that "Letter from a Birmingham Jail" is a suspect piece of writing.
Giant Bomb is a very influential site. I am happy that have provided a unified, clear statement of their position on this.
MonsterDunk
Giant Bomb eSports Editor
At some point it's a personal note that would probably be taken by people as something of an excuse (and it's something that people involved in the Giant Bomb community are already a little more aware of), but I had a death in my family last month that took 100% of my attention away from anything happening in games or the internet. It's made a lot of the "WHY AREN'T YOU CONDEMNING THIS AS FORCEFULLY AS I AM RIGHT NOW" things that have been slung my way over the last chunk of time have a fairly nasty tinge to it. It's also left me quite disappointed by the people who automatically assume that not saying anything means that I/we were somehow complicit or that we stood in approval of various things. Maybe that would have made that entire point make more sense had it been included, but at some point my personal life is just that... my personal life.
People can argue all they want about the timing, and obviously there's no way to please everyone, but there you go.
What was the first target, a girl with left wing opinions. Who was the last target, a girl with left wing opinions....
It's clearly not about other issues.
mullet2000
Member
How exactly did this whole GamerGate thing start? The first I heard about this was right after the events of a woman named Quinn allegedly sleeping with other men who happen to be reviewers/critics that praised her work on Depression Quest.
Was that event the cause of this whole thing? Can anyone fill me in because I feel so out of the loop with this.
To put it simply:
- Zoe Quinn was accused of sleeping with a number of people in the games press, which in turn resulted in good coverage of he game (allegedly). This would later seem to be proven false. I think that there were some fair questions were asked about this initially, but it quite quickly devolved into sexism and harassment.
- The games media published several articles denouncing the harrassment, Leigh Alexander's "Gamers are Over" being the most prominent. The articles, Leigh's especially, are quite aggressive and used the term "gamer" in a fairly sweeping way, and people got upset about that (largely missing the point in the process. Though I do think the wording is problematic on some level)
- #Gamergate was spawned as a reaction to the games media "treating gamers poorly" and claimed to be a call for journalistic integrity. In reality it VERY quickly just became a vehicle for the harassment of women in the industry. And over the past month and a half it has continued on that way.
Brawndo Addict
Banned
What is Gamergate supposedly doing or addressing ethics wise that was not already being done before? People already talked about the inherent problems from the writer-advertiser-developer circle and things of that nature. It's not like they discovered some heretofore unknown problem we never knew about. You never needed a hashtag to talk about this before.
Hell, it's in the name itself. It's "gamer"-gate. It's directly a response to the articles about 'gamers' being over or done or finished or whatever. And "gate" implies a specific incident or occurrence that set everything off. What was the ethical violation here that blew the roof off a conspiracy? There's a reason the hashtag wasn't something like #gamingethics or #gameswritingethics.
Hell, it's in the name itself. It's "gamer"-gate. It's directly a response to the articles about 'gamers' being over or done or finished or whatever. And "gate" implies a specific incident or occurrence that set everything off. What was the ethical violation here that blew the roof off a conspiracy? There's a reason the hashtag wasn't something like #gamingethics or #gameswritingethics.
EDIT: I realize I was wrong. While I still think that GamerGate has people apart of it that aren't using it for bad things, the movement itself is bad, and I don't think I agree with Jeff on ignoring that aspect of the movement.n and get some rest. Sorry for mucking up the thread.
Zomba13
Member
Yeah, I see this point too. The harassment is horrible and doesn't need to be condemned for people to know its wrong. Every knows that even the ones doing it (especially them) but I can definitely see how helpful it would be for a site to come out and say "we think this is bullshit and we support the female developers who are being harassed". But by having to do that the ones issuing the death threats and harassment get their hate boner going because they know they've riled people up enough to acknowledge what they are doing. In a sick way they feel proud of their actions getting recognition. They are just meaner trolls with a now much bigger stage to play on.
I think you're off base, even just in factual terms. You're reacting to things I don't think fit real events. I'll choose one example, and explain why I think you'e off base. You're said IGN didn't respond. Let's look into that.
Would an article from basically two months ago from IGN reporting on this exact topic make you feel better? Would the article from a month before that help? This is arguable even before GameGate formulated into what it is now.
Yup, this. I hope fans of theirs read his letter and I hope a lot of people also see the criticisms in this thread with the understanding that they're designed to strengthen, not attack, Jeff's reasoning.
They've done nothing. There have been a couple of real, important incidents involving ethics in the industry recently (the Shadow of Mordor youtube kerfuffle and the GMAs happening) and GG have done shit all about them.
Because they are not about ethics at all.
SliceSabre
Banned
I like that at the end Jeff doesn't want to string up the people who are silent, aren't paying attention or just do not care with the same ropes that people are stringing up GGers with.
I tend to automatically think less of any group and I'm disgusted by any group that tells those who are silent you're with us or against us and attacks them or automatically lumps them in with the other side.
I tend to automatically think less of any group and I'm disgusted by any group that tells those who are silent you're with us or against us and attacks them or automatically lumps them in with the other side.
This example is in favor of my statement. The problem with institutional racism is that certain groups are being ignored and overlooked at many levels, not that there is a sustained conspiracy to keep the black man down. And in fact the solution is making people actively aware of behaviors which might present a racial bias which is really hard because people quickly lose interest when the media stops reporting about it.
In internet trolling people want attention, why do you think words like "e-peen" and "lulz" were invented? They want reactions, it feeds their ego. Making death threats is also very illegal and if nobody cared it would certainly be a much greater risk to take.
Quite frankly either approach is valid. If you can get people in the community ousting the trolls so they can be arrested, that would be a big help. Otherwise I think just ignoring them takes away the incentive from them to continue. The worst thing I feel is the group that still thinks this is about journalism and who are too far up their own ass to realize that their continued relationship with these people and deflecting is doing way more damage than whatever good they think they are doing.
Prime crotch
Banned
Basically, I think the internet has become such a reactionary place of discourse that if you don't knee jerk react to anything that assumptions are made lightning fast; wake up one day and find out you're the martyr for some new splinter movement.
context is everything, but now you're just spouting zingers. Sure ignoring racism never worked on USA, but so what? Does that wholly apply to this case of attention media seeking harassers?
7DollarHagane
Banned
They shouldnt have to post anything about hate speech, death threats, and violence being bad for the audience to understand that its a bad thing.
Like Jeff said on their podcast nobody should need to be told how to react to this stuff.
ShockingAlberto
Member
I have seen people who use Jeff's face as an avatar arguing for Gamergate or people in Giant Bomb threads say they're sick of Gamergate topics on Giant Bomb and no longer want them reporting on it because it's such a bummer.
It's important they spoke out and I hope they continue to speak out because people shouldn't be able to take their silence as a reason to ignore everything bad about it.
It's important they spoke out and I hope they continue to speak out because people shouldn't be able to take their silence as a reason to ignore everything bad about it.
K
kittens
Unconfirmed Member
Yeah, good stuff. I'm really glad more and more people are talking about GG and pointedly rejecting it.
7DollarHagane
Banned
If people have real concerns about the game press; #GG isn't the place for them.
I know about the intrinsic issues with the game press. It's a small industry, with very little money in it. It covers a much bigger industry with a lot of money in it. So it's easy for the publishers to try to press the small struggling outlets for better coverage or to control the message. On top of that everyone in the games press are enthusiasts so they often want to know the creators of games which may compromise their impartiality.
But does that even deserve this much attention? I find it hard to get that passionate about it. The problem is there is so little at stake. Most reviews aren't used as buying guides but just positive re-enforcement of opinions people already had. Even if it were used as a buying guide the totality of what is at stake is buying something you don't like. Not that huge. A reviews is a subjective opinion. As such you need to find people with a subjective opinion close to yours. If you feel one critic rates things too highly, find another to read.
That isn't anything to threaten or gang up on people for.
ShockingAlberto
Member
Also
http://blog.jeffgerstmann.net/post/...ld-be-so-disappointed-in-you-right-now-buying
This is what Gamergate is. When someone disagrees with them, this is how they react.
http://blog.jeffgerstmann.net/post/...ld-be-so-disappointed-in-you-right-now-buying
This is what Gamergate is. When someone disagrees with them, this is how they react.
Riposte
Member
Unfortunately though, that has turned the constant demand for GiantBomb to make a statement against GamerGate to them making the correct statement against GamerGate.
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
Jeff is too real for the Game Industry.
7DollarHagane
Banned
While there are discussions to be had about games media and ethics they are not happening as part of or in association with this group.
I am glad to see that not everyone who has a problem with games media is being lumped in with these rotten individuals.
Jeff didn't throw out enough death threats to satisfy the lunatic fringe.
KimonoNoNo
Member
Also did you see Eurogamer's response, by Oli Welsh.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-10-17-we-cannot-let-this-become-gaming-culture
I thought it pretty well written and argued.
Sorry, I didn't mean to be so aggressive.
I would disagree that #GG has mellowed out or changed it's tune. That is all.
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
People have different opinions in how to deal with social progressive issues even when they agree with the core idea... Who knew?