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Fighting Games Weekly | Dec 29 - Jan 4 | 2015: An Esports Odyssey

fader

Member

if he was the Chipp player, then lol...

I enjoyed Sirlin's article. I disagree with him regarding Accent Core, but I agree with him regarding pretty much every other point. Particularly the option select stuff. I'm not a fan of option selects in general, so the fact that Xrd teaches you them in it's tutorial/mission mode makes me wonder if Street Fighter V will do the same thing...assuming it even has a tutorial.

whats funny about that is how much he praises Reload and attack AC but RELOAD WAS RIDDLED WITH OS'. Plus they took away one of the most powerful OS' from the series in AC, but of course he didn't talk about that... I personally don't have a problem with OS' unless it becomes the main focus of your game like in SF4, but I can understand why someone wont like it but OS' are not a big deal in GG series...
 

Kimosabae

Banned
Sirloin's rail against OSes is fundamentally unsound, based on his reasoning. His "Rock & Paper & Scissors play" analogy doesn't work, because there's no OS in this game without an answer. Throw OSs in particular. You can still space ground meats outside throw range or you can do a meaty jump-in.
 

QisTopTier

XisBannedTier
Sirloin's rail against OSes is fundamentally unsound, based on his reasoning. His "Rock & Paper & Scissors play" analogy doesn't work, because there's no OS in this game without an answer. Throw OSs in particular. You can still space ground meats outside throw range or you can do a meaty jump-in.
Praise Be Ky normals :p
 
Sirloin's rail against OSes is fundamentally unsound, based on his reasoning. His "Rock & Paper & Scissors play" analogy doesn't work, because there's no OS in this game without an answer. Throw OSs in particular. You can still space ground meats outside throw range or you can do a meaty jump-in.

I think his dislike for option selects mainly comes from the fact that he does not want the game to dictate his action for him...if that makes sense.

Like, Sirlin's gameplan would be to just commit to one option in any given situation, rather than do a option select. Like, he gets a knockdown and goes for a meaty throw. If the opponent backdashes, he'll get a 6HS and get punished, which is how he believes the game should "flow", so to speak. He doesn't want to input 6HS+P, and get a 6P when the opponent backdashes in that knockdown situation, when he intended to do a throw, even if it'll save his ass.

I can understand his perspective; not wanting the game to decide a different action then what he's intending to do.


While I do dislike option selects for that same reason, I will be the first to admit that they are a pretty important competitive tool, and that they should be learned in and out, should you want to get to that next level of competitive play, so to speak. So, not using them is Sirlin's loss.
 

fader

Member
reading the SF4 subreddit, holy shit do people not know how to fight against Poison... Didn't know there was this strong contingent against her...
 
Sirloin's rail against OSes is fundamentally unsound, based on his reasoning. His "Rock & Paper & Scissors play" analogy doesn't work, because there's no OS in this game without an answer. Throw OSs in particular. You can still space ground meats outside throw range or you can do a meaty jump-in.
I agree with his issues re: input complexity for beginners, though.
 
Sirlin's not out of the loop, he's just writing for a slightly different audience than you expect. His blog is about game design for game designers. He's not interested in fighting game pedantry so much as clarifying why certain things do or don't work. So when your complaints are about him getting a name wrong or a misunderstanding about the application of some option select it looks silly and you're just derailing from the point of his article.

And like it or not, Sirlin does come from a position of relative authority in game design. Maybe not as much from the fgc, but that's not his focus either.
 
Well, the japanese arcade scene sure thinks she's top 5... (lol)

Well, they might not be wrong about that. When it comes to a character that can play Street Fighter at the midrange where 90% of the game is played, not many characters have a better tool set. That's one of the reasons I dropped Dudley, it's kind of annoying only getting to play a small percentage of the actual game to my character's tools.
 

fader

Member
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";145734895]Well, they might not be wrong about that. When it comes to a character that can play Street Fighter at the midrange where 90% of the game is played, not many characters have a better tool set. That's one of the reasons I dropped Dudley, it's kind of annoying only getting to play a small percentage of the actual game to my character's tools.[/QUOTE]

are you gonna tell American's that Japanese may not know everything? BLASPHEMY!!!
 

Pompadour

Member
I think his dislike for option selects mainly comes from the fact that he does not want the game to dictate his action for him...if that makes sense.

Like, Sirlin's gameplan would be to just commit to one option in any given situation, rather than do a option select. Like, he gets a knockdown and goes for a meaty throw. If the opponent backdashes, he'll get a 6HS and get punished, which is how he believes the game should "flow", so to speak. He doesn't want to input 6HS+P, and get a 6P when the opponent backdashes in that knockdown situation, when he intended to do a throw, even if it'll save his ass.

I can understand his perspective; not wanting the game to decide a different action then what he's intending to do.

I agree with that desire although I don't know if that is his problem. I remember in his blogs about HD Remix he was talking about not liking two-button throws and how in SF2 that no one is unhappy they accidentally landed a throw so who cares if they didn't intend to do that.

That has always stuck with me because I disagree with that vehemently. I want my character to do what I want even if it isn't the best option at that moment. Sirlin hates how a player can enter a command and get, as he describes, getting rock and paper or rock, paper, and scissors.

So he doesn't like the dumbed down advantage of OSes. I dislike OSes because of that and I'd rather pick what I want to do specifically. But frankly I've made peace with OSes since they are inherent hard to minimize in FGs.
 

Dlent

Member
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";145734007]Sirlin's not out of the loop, he's just writing for a slightly different audience than you expect. His blog is about game design for game designers. He's not interested in fighting game pedantry so much as clarifying why certain things do or don't work. So when your complaints are about him getting a name wrong or a misunderstanding about the application of some option select it looks silly and you're just derailing from the point of his article.
[/QUOTE]

He's interested enough in fighting game pedantry to say that the entirety of AC's history was to ruin the characters he played.
 

kirblar

Member
I don't like the concept of OSs either. But they are there because of the engine and have to be dealt with and learned.
Sure, but he's not talking about them in a real-world "adapt or die" sense, he's talking about them at a design level "we should be trying to eliminate these, not adding them to tutorials" sense.
 

Rhapsody

Banned
Didn't Reload or some version also have Jam's FD brake Parry OS? I remember Jam's parry being really dumb in an earlier game.
 

Kimosabae

Banned
As has been said, OSes are hard to get rid of, completely. Even Smash has OSes (though I haven't heard of useful ones, outside of one I came up with in Melee). So why not teach them to players in the tutorial? The awesome thing about Xrd's tutorials is that they give you not just a more fundamental understanding of Xrd's systems, but FGs in general. You can take what you learn about OSes, Reversal timing etc., there and apply them elsewhere because they're constants of the genre. The game does not introduce them as constants, but still. The greater evil is to keep fresh players in the night regarding them, completely, imo.

I don't think OSes "dumb-down" anything. In fact, they help players get to the meta faster with just a little bit of executional refinement (which is what people of these types claim to value so much). They make the conditions simpler, by narrowing the possible outcomes, making the mind game element stronger. That doesn't make for a "dumbed-down" situation at all, as long as there's still a tactical response to every possible outcome, whether those involve OSes or not.

If your intention is to play Rock & Scissors together and the game allows you to do this, the game isn't choosing anything for you. You're conscious of the options being selected. I see it as no different than entering a command for a special move or special normal, etc.
 
As has been said, OSes are hard to get rid of, completely. Even Smash has OSes (though I haven't heard of useful ones, outside of one I came up with in Melee). So why not teach them to players in the tutorial? The awesome thing about Xrd's tutorials is that they give you not just a more fundamental understanding of Xrd's systems, but FGs in general. You can take what you learn about OSes, Reversal timing etc., there and apply them elsewhere because they're constants of the genre. The game does not introduce them as constants, but still. The greater evil is to keep fresh players in the night regarding them, completely, imo.

I don't think OSes "dumb-down" anything. In fact, they help players get to the meta faster with just a little bit of executional refinement (which is what people of these types claim to value so much). They make the conditions simpler, by narrowing the possible outcomes, making the mind game element stronger. That doesn't make for a "dumbed-down" situation at all, as long as there's still a tactical response to every possible outcome.

If your intention is to play Rock & Scissors together and the game allows you to do this, the game isn't choosing anything for you. You're conscious of the options being selected. I see it as no different than entering a command for a special move or special normal, etc.
Consider a game like Marvel. How much more manageable would Wolverine be if his dive kick wasn't also a throw OS? Wouldn't it improve the game if Wolverine's approach had just the slightest bit of risk to it?
 

Kimosabae

Banned
K. Sabot: The fuck??

Wolverine's OS is definitely OP due to the rewards, no doubt it's dumb. I'm just saying I don't see the problem with OSes, in general. At least, the way they work in Xrd, as far as we know.
 

K.Sabot

Member
K. Sabot: The fuck??

Wolverine's OS is definitely OP due to the rewards, no doubt it's dumb. I'm just saying I don't see the problem with OSes, in general. At least, the way they work in Xrd, as far as we know.

woke up to my middle right finger being purple and swolen and it hurts like hell to use it so I can't feasibly hit button to play gg.
 
K. Sabot: The fuck??

Wolverine's OS is definitely OP due to the rewards, no doubt it's dumb. I'm just saying I don't see the problem with OSes, in general. At least, the way they work in Xrd, as far as we know.
Balance-wise, I think they are probably fine in Xrd.

I think Sirlin is speaking more on favorable game design.

Fighting games, I think he would say, are about making skillful decisions. Allowing one input to cover two options is essentially "dumbing down" the decision-making process. I agree with his perspective on this.

Some OS, like a j.HK into Tatsu OS in Street Fighter, are really hard to get rid of, though. You would have to get rid of hitstop, I think.
 

Frantic

Member
Consider a game like Marvel. How much more manageable would Wolverine be if his dive kick wasn't also a throw OS? Wouldn't it improve the game if Wolverine's approach had just the slightest bit of risk to it?
UNACCEPTABLE

I think OSes are okay, so long as they're more than just "jdf.H all day".
 

kirblar

Member
Fighting games, at their heart, are guessing games. Being able to have a guess that does a single attack that covers multiple options is great. Being able to have a guess that mutates into the best possible option depending on what your opponent does is the issue.
 
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";145734007]Sirlin's not out of the loop, he's just writing for a slightly different audience than you expect. His blog is about game design for game designers. He's not interested in fighting game pedantry so much as clarifying why certain things do or don't work. So when your complaints are about him getting a name wrong or a misunderstanding about the application of some option select it looks silly and you're just derailing from the point of his article.[/QUOTE]
I've just started reading the article and yeah this is exactly it. Sirlin's write up is not an analysis of how good a competitive game Xrd is but rather the individual mechanics and how they fit in with the game design.

This is why one of the starting comments is how easy YRC is to use for new players. Why he interprets purple roman cancel as a mechanic that covers a state for when a player fails to do a YRC.

It is a very simple and superficial analysis that mainly focuses on what the basic idea behind the mechanics is rather than their overall impact on the game, the effect on the meta game, the overall competitive nature and ballance of the game.
 

alstein

Member
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";145734007]Sirlin's not out of the loop, he's just writing for a slightly different audience than you expect. His blog is about game design for game designers. He's not interested in fighting game pedantry so much as clarifying why certain things do or don't work. So when your complaints are about him getting a name wrong or a misunderstanding about the application of some option select it looks silly and you're just derailing from the point of his article.

And like it or not, Sirlin does come from a position of relative authority in game design. Maybe not as much from the fgc, but that's not his focus either.[/QUOTE]

I know a lot of game designers I highly respect like Jon Shafer really are fans of Sirlin's work, even if they see him as dogmatic at times.

His card game is pretty solid.

I'm generally OK with OS's if they are simple enough to be figured out intuitively, easy enough executionally to not jack up the barrier too much, and can be busted hard if predicted.
VF OSs generally fit this category, SF4 OSs do not.
 

Prototype

Member
Fighting games, at their heart, are guessing games. Being able to have a guess that does a single attack that covers multiple options is great. Being able to have a guess that mutates into the best possible option depending on what your opponent does is the issue.
I don't like that you can make a guess in some games that cover more then 1 outcome. It takes the risk out of the read and lets the system do it for you.

This applies whether I'm the one on offense or not. The advancing player makes a move and essentially "bets" on it given the information on available to him- player tendencies, the MU, what escape options the opposing player has, ect. The advancing player should have to commit. Having an action that covers 2 or 3 actions the defender could take makes the risk the attacker takes less risky and this leads to less thinking.

This is why I personally don't like them, and I think it's the same thing that sirlin is getting at. OS directly contribute to a lessened thought process,as they automate an aspect of the game.
 

Dahbomb

Member
OSs are dumb and will always be dumb. It's like playing rock/paper/scissors only you have a gun that takes care of paper and scissors. You will always use the gun because it increases chance of winning and when the answer is always that obvious it removes thinking and dumbs things down.

Wolverine's Dive Kick OS is no longer that strong because of chicken blocking (ie it can get punished). Skilled Wolverine players rely less on it. The bigger problem is the Helm Breaker OS these days and that's mostly because it can't be punished because it is cancellable on landing which makes sense as that doesn't even exist in the DMC games.

The other big OS in that game is the back or forward plink dash OS which Vergil also can abuse along with other characters who have plink dashes (ie Magneto). Characters who don't have this movement option in the game are falling to the wayside fast (like Iron Man, who if he had this movement would be actually very good).
 

Dlent

Member
Option Selects are just a technical reality of all fighting games. Like literally any other option, they need to be balanced accordingly. For example, pressing buttons during blockstun is an OS in most games(especially those with absolute guard); if your opponent has tight pressure you continue blocking, if they try something slow during their blockstring you hit them, if they do something fast but not fast enough to be a true blockstring you get hit, and if they do something evasive you whiff(possibly leading to a punish). Maybe you do consider this stupid and that's fine, but it's a fairly fundamental part of almost every fighting game that you think is stupid.
 

Dahbomb

Member
Everyone here knows that OSs are a reality of FGs especially 2D games, doesn't mean that we can't call out examples of bad OSs.

What Kirblar says rings true here, OSs which result in best options in all scenarios are inherently bad but those OSs which have something bad happen are normally fine. An example of this would be push block + back dash OS in Marvel games. If you are being pressured by tight blocking you will get the push block but if you are not in block stun you will get a back dash which is punishable. This is especially problematic Morrigan.

However in the case of Magneto vs Haggar, this ends up being an obscene OS in favor of Magneto.
 

Dlent

Member
I suppose we're in agreement then; I just took issue with the absolute statement that "OSs are dumb and will always be dumb" when lots of them are just another fair tool within the games arsenal. Marvel certainly has some dumb OS stuff, but complaining about dumb stuff in Marvel is like complaining about icing on your cake.
 

Infinite

Member
From a game design perspective OSes are bad and that's prospective Sirlin is speaking from. However they are a consequence of input leniency which is ultimately good for the games and thus a reality we as players have to deal with.
 

kirblar

Member
Option Selects are just a technical reality of all fighting games. Like literally any other option, they need to be balanced accordingly. For example, pressing buttons during blockstun is an OS in most games(especially those with absolute guard); if your opponent has tight pressure you continue blocking, if they try something slow during their blockstring you hit them, if they do something fast but not fast enough to be a true blockstring you get hit, and if they do something evasive you whiff(possibly leading to a punish). Maybe you do consider this stupid and that's fine, but it's a fairly fundamental part of almost every fighting game that you think is stupid.
It's not an OS though, it's just a buffered move that your opponent can bait out. Daigo was apparently dropping E.Ryu combos on purpose (and blocking) in order to pushing mashed reversal attempts.
 

Dlent

Member
Downback+Light Kick is an an option select when you're in block stun because the game will choose for you whether to block or do a crouching lk. And because this isn't a broken OS by any means, people like Daigo strategize around them. Why would a move being buffered or being baitable stop it from being an OS?
 

Dahbomb

Member
The only two OSs I have a problem with in Marvel are the b/f + H throw OS (mostly due to stuff like Helm Breaker and Doom's Hard kick) and the plink dash OS (OS dashes with throws). Throw tech + assist call is also pretty insane for some characters (Wolverine + Akuma) but only becomes a thing for resets, it usually isn't a big factor outside of start of round shenanigans.

The game has other OSs but they are not a big problem or in some cases actually make the game more playable like the aforementioned OS with push block. Stuff like timing a push block to negate a high/low mix up in MVC2 was the only way to actually defend some crazy stuff in that game otherwise everyone would be super pringles to Magneto. Though one can argue that the real problem was the tri dash high low mix ups themselves.
 

Silky

Banned
KI Season 2's getting a bonus character with its additional 8. New character's called Omen and its a Shoto clone
 

alstein

Member
Downback+Light Kick is an an option select when you're in block stun because the game will choose for you whether to block or do a crouching lk. And because this isn't a broken OS by any means, people like Daigo strategize around them. Why would a move being buffered or being baitable stop it from being an OS?

As far as OS's go it's not that bad cause most chars can bust it. The only real issue is SF4 tends to give out too much reward for crouching LKs if you can 1f link (combination of issues there)

One thing I'd really like to see in SF5 is for jabs/shorts to not be able to start combos, make them only +1 or +2 on hit.
 

Rhapsody

Banned
Regarding SF4 throw OS, which would you guys prefer? Punch taking priority over kick so we don't get lows out of the OS, or would you have throw techs not available for crouching inputs?
 
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