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[icecold1983]

Using a forward rendering process affords them the use of MSAA more easily.

doesnt ac unity use a forward renderer? AA takes a massive perf hit.

 

[FranXico]

I am not sure why are some people talking about nothing but high praise, because RAD also are called out for not fully delivering on certain technical aspects.

Texture filtering:

Texture filtering is another key point in delivering excellent image quality and it is here that The Order: 1886 stumbles. Despite the realistic depiction of materials, surfaces are sometimes tarnished by noticeable blurring at oblique angles. Secondary objects, such as wooden tables or push carts, showcase these artefacts quite noticeably and detract from game's sense of realism. On the other hand, primary surfaces, such as the ground textures, are not distractingly blurred from the normal gameplay angle in most cases. As a result, it never feels as if this issue overwhelms the otherwise beautifully detailed scenery but there are a number of occasions where it does stand out. It's possible that a selective implementation has been utilised here with primary surfaces receiving greater attention but, regardless, the overall result is a little lacklustre compared to the rest of the presentation.

Physics:

That said, the physics simulation isn't as robust as we were first lead to believe - as revealed during a presentation at Gamescom 2013, Ready at Dawn targeted a more complex soft body and destruction physics engine at some point, which promised fully destructible environments and materials. The example of a crate splintering realistically as a nearby grenade explodes, for instance, does not appear within the final game. Even more superficial surface damage, as seen in Gears of War 3 or Killzone 2, is absent leaving most of the game's structures completely intact following a large fire-fight.

 

[Gbraga]

if 4x msaa is indeed being used this is serious coding wizardry

Probably wouldn't be possible if it wasn't forward+. God bless real AA, it's so rare these days, even on PC.

Spoiler

I actually don't mind FXAA nearly as much as other people do, to be honest

 

[AlphaDump]

I'm saying that people are seeing what they want to see. I see the same criticisms about DF pop up even when its not Leadbetter writing the articles. And I see people talk about 'media bias' against the Playstation quite a bit, especially in review threads. Its like some people believe there's this huge conspiracy out to trash the Playstation when in reality, its just their own emotional investment in the brand isn't being reciprocated so lovingly by others and so anything where the Playstation isn't being held up on a pedestal is 'bashing' or some agenda or something. I don't think some of you guys realize how silly it seems from an outside perspective.


This sounds incredibly paranoid.

to be fair, you even agreed here that their opinion on something wasn't substantiated.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Would it still be coding wizardry if it was 1920x1080 and 2xMSAA? I think that makes it a bit more realistic when you think about it like that, but its still a hell of an accomplishment no doubt.

That's like asking the question, "since the game is using a forward renderer, is using MSAA at all with this level of graphical fidelity really an accomplishment?"

I think it works fine considering what they went with technically speaking.

 

[Stallion Free]

doesnt ac unity use a forward renderer? AA takes a massive perf hit.

No it's deferred. Most engines are still deferred. The Order devs spoke in depth about choosing forward rendering because of their specific desire for MSAA way before release.

 

[A More Normal Bird]

Agreed, but the way its phrased now also adds nothing of value.
Just like the popular "one of the best" phrase. Has no meaning other than "its pretty good".

I disagree. I'd put "perhaps the best" a smidge higher than "one of the best", but either statement is still a clear expression of where the work stands in the author's eyes. It's unfortunate that hyperbole has become so commonplace that calling something "perhaps/one of the best" seems almost mundane, but that doesn't mean that writers should start contravening long existing standards/etiquettes to compensate.

 

[Gbraga]

That's like asking the question, "since the game is using a forward renderer, is using MSAA at all with this level of graphical fidelity really an accomplishment?"

I think it works fine considering what they went with technically speaking.

Well, I don't think it's quite the same, actually, since it's not just flipping a switch and bam, your game is now forward+ and you have MSAA. If it was, more games would probably do the same.

 

[Seanspeed]

to be fair, you even agreed here that their opinion on something wasn't substantiated.

DF aren't perfect. I've disagreed with them plenty of times and I've seen instances where they've flat out got things wrong before(most of which had nothing to do with PS4). When I said that comment was unsubstantiated, I meant it was unsubstantiated, not that it was 'a lie told in order to make one console look better than the other'.

That's like asking the question, "since the game is using a forward renderer, is using MSAA at all with this level of graphical fidelity really an accomplishment?"

I think it works fine considering what they went with technically speaking

I never said it was a problem or was bad or anything remotely like that. Not sure what you're talking about.

 

[icecold1983]

No it's deferred. Most engines are still deferred. The Order devs spoke in depth about choosing forward rendering because of their specific desire for MSAA way before release.

there was a very recent big budget multiplatform title using a forward renderer, and i want to say it was from ubisoft.

 

[Renekton]

Why did RaD allegedly go for MSAA?

From my basic understanding, it's terrible bang for performance buck.

 

[Gbraga]

there was a very recent big budget multiplatform title using a forward renderer, and i want to say it was from ubisoft.

As far as I know, only The Witcher 3 and The Order are said to be forward+, at least considering the games coming out early 2015.

Why did RaD allegedly go for MSAA?

From my basic understanding, it's terrible bang for performance buck.

If you just slap it on a deferred game, then absolutely, but they went with forward specifically because they wanted MSAA, so the performance hit is a lot more reasonable.

 

[AlphaDump]

DF aren't perfect. I've disagreed with them plenty of times and I've seen instances where they've flat out got things wrong before(most of which had nothing to do with PS4). When I said that comment was unsubstantiated, I meant it was unsubstantiated, not that it was 'a lie told in order to make one console look better than the other'.

no doubt


un·sub·stan·ti·at·ed
adjective
not supported or proven by evidence.


it might not be a lie, but in a tech analysis such a claim is pretty bold. oddly enough you defended it there with bad luck, rather than hold them accountable.

anyway, i wont derail any further.

 

[LiquidMetal14]

Gentlemen, let's not get too heated and enjoy ourselves some graphics talk.

I've only seen videos but the only thing I've seen that looks better to my eyes is Ryse downsampled from about 5k on my SLI rig. I Kean that from an IQ perspective.

 

[stryke]

No it's deferred. Most engines are still deferred. The Order devs spoke in depth about choosing forward rendering because of their specific desire for MSAA way before release.

For reference -

1) We actually used to use deferred rendering, and one of the reasons for switching was so that MSAA would be more affordable and less error-prone. I'm a firm believer in MSAA, and I think it's required if you want really good image quality. The shader-based techniques like FXAA and MLAA are certainly a lot better than nothing and they make a still screenshot look really nice, but they're fundamentally limited by a lack of sub-pixel information and it really shows in motion. They can still be nice though when used in conjunction with MSAA in order to improve the quality further and to cover up some of the places where MSAA doesn't work as well, and there's also some shader things you can do on modern GPU's that make MSAA more effective overall.

 

[Autofokus]

Nice read. Good work dark10x.

 

[Gbraga]

Gentlemen, let's not get too heated and enjoy ourselves some graphics talk.

I've only seen videos but the only thing I've seen that looks better to my eyes is Ryse downsampled from about 5k on my SLI rig. I Kean that from an IQ perspective.

I wish we could see what The Order would look like without all the filters. I love me some clean IQ.

At least without Chromatic Aberration.

 

[Javin98]

That was a pretty good article. Great job, John. This is exactly the kind of tech analysis I want. One that pays very close attention to the visual fidelity of the game without going on and on about gameplay. The Order is truly the best looking game right now regardless of platform. Also, anyone else get the feeling that parts of the article were influenced by the discussions in the other thread yesterday? Especially the texture filtering and IQ part.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Well, I don't think it's quite the same, actually, since it's not just flipping a switch and bam, your game is now forward+ and you have MSAA. If it was, more games would probably do the same.

That's true.

I never said it was a problem or was bad or anything remotely like that. Not sure what you're talking about.

I assumed you were saying something like that, i apologize if it wasnt your intent

 

[Jburton]

Leadbetter does articles on all sorts of things, many of which have nothing to do with gaming. Its just some of you so entrenched in console warfare that you're seeing the enemy everywhere even when you're at the supermarket.


I bought a 40" TV because I wanted a 40" image.

You're one to talk about console warfare.

 

[Seanspeed]

no doubt


un·sub·stan·ti·at·ed
adjective
not supported or proven by evidence.


it might not be a lie, but in a tech analysis such a claim is pretty bold. oddly enough you defended it there with bad luck, rather than hold them accountable.

anyway, i wont derail any further.

I just wrote that they've said incorrect things before(again, most of which that had nothing to do with the PS4).

And I did hold them accountable for making the claim they did in the Evolve article while also saying that there's little reason to doubt they did actually have connectivity issues(the bad luck part). You're trying to find an 'aha' moment here that isn't there, I'm afraid.

You're one to talk about console warfare.

You know me. All about them consoles. lol

Thanks for proving my point.

 

[Jburton]

I just wrote that they've said incorrect things before(again, most of which that had nothing to do with the PS4).

And I did hold them accountable for making the claim they did in the Evolve article while also saying that there's little reason to doubt they did actually have connectivity issues(the bad luck part). You're trying to find an 'aha' moment here that isn't there, I'm afraid.


You know me. All about them consoles. lol

You spend an awful lot of time in console threads for one that cares so little.

 

[Backfoggen]

Man I was looking forward to some sick physics

 

[AlphaDump]

I just wrote that they've said incorrect things before(again, most of which that had nothing to do with the PS4).

And I did hold them accountable for making the claim they did in the Evolve article while also saying that there's little reason to doubt they did actually have connectivity issues(the bad luck part). You're trying to find an 'aha' moment here that isn't there, I'm afraid.

no aha moment, thats called projecting. I am literally restating what you said, and why some would question DF's integrity.

 

[Seanspeed]

You spend an awful lot of time in console threads for one that cares so little.

In graphics threads, you mean?

 

[ScepticMatt]

As far as I know, only The Witcher 3 and The Order are said to be forward+, at least considering the games coming out early 2015.

And Ryse (Ryse and Witcher 3 use hybrid renderers, capable of both)

 

[NumberThree]

I'm still waiting for someone to show a PC game that looks better. Ryse on my PC that is much more powerful than a PS4 doesn't look nearly as good.

Ryse can run at 60 frames per second, though. Refresh rate plays part in how a game's graphics look.

 

[Seanspeed]

no aha moment, thats called projecting. I am literally restating what you said, and why some would question DF's integrity.

You were restating part of what I said while leaving out the part where I did the thing you said I didn't do.

And agreeing that DF don't get it right all the time is different than what most people seem to be accusing them of here.

 

[Seanspeed]

Ryse can run at 60 frames per second, though. Refresh rate plays part in how a game's graphics look.

It can make a game look more fluid and even stable in motion, but it does not improve the raw graphics themselves.

 

[Blinck]

Easily the best looking game ever IMO, including PC.
The art direction with all the "cinematic" filters helps with this, it really does look like CGI at times.
Big props to ready at dawn.

 

[Gbraga]

And Ryse (Ryse and Witcher 3 are hybrid renderers, capable of both)

Oh, really? I had no idea.

Interesting.

 

[Jburton]

I just wrote that they've said incorrect things before(again, most of which that had nothing to do with the PS4).

And I did hold them accountable for making the claim they did in the Evolve article while also saying that there's little reason to doubt they did actually have connectivity issues(the bad luck part). You're trying to find an 'aha' moment here that isn't there, I'm afraid.


You know me. All about them consoles. lol

Thanks for proving my point.

In graphics threads, you mean?

Yeah, usually downplaying them ..... Or in the Bloodbourne thread stating that it looks like crap or telling us how limited and meh Uncharted is, or how you would look forward to Forza coming to PC if it did and how PC streaming to Xbox would be awesome.

 

[hiex_]

I feel like I'm the only person who not only doesn't mind the letterboxing, but appreciates its inclusion. I had the same opinion with The Evil Within. It makes the whole experience feel closer and claustrophobic. I wouldn't want it present in like, Far Cry or something. But I think it works to atmospheric games advantage.

Visually I think this game is the best looking ever. I don't think I've even seen a PC game that comes ahead of it.

 

[FunkyPajamas]

I agree, why is it so hard to admit the obvious?

I'm still waiting for someone to show a PC game that looks better. Ryse on my PC that is much more powerful than a PS4 doesn't look nearly as good.

Correct me if I'm wrong (and really, please do correct me if I'm wrong) since I haven't played either and have only seen screenshots and videos, but isn't the latest AssCreed game a looker on a very capable PC? I'm talking strictly about IQ, textures, effects, etc. Not even performance.

Again, please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[travisbickle]

Because "Best. Graphics. Ever!" is fine for a personal opinion on a forum, but for a professional writer it adds nothing substantial to the article yet can be seen as making an objective statement on a subjective issue that would no doubt serve as a lightning rod for trolling and controversy. Adding "perhaps" as a qualifier cuts out (or at least limits) all debates about art-style and game scope and adding "on console" does the same for things such as obscene IQ and 16K pillow texture mods, whilst still conveying that in the author's informed opinion the combination of technologies stand at the pinnacle of current achievement in the field.

They'd already qualified game scope with the start of the sentence, I assumed people had read the sentence in context?

The narrow approach to game design has at least allowed the team to unleash perhaps the most impressive example of real-time graphics on a console to date.

Art style? it's a tech analysis.

So with the qualifiers "narrow scope" and "consoles", the only game The Order is competing with is Ryse ... unless you want to say there's a last gen game? So the sentence is essentially "perhaps it's more impressive than Ryse"? Do we need the perhaps?

 

[Gbraga]

Yeah, usually downplaying them ..... Or in the Bloodbourne thread stating that it looks like crap or telling us how limited and meh Uncharted is, or how you would look forward to Forza coming to PC if it did and how PC streaming to Xbox would be awesome.

I don't blame him, to be honest, I think Bloodborne looks great, but I can totally see why someone would think it looks like crap because of the Chromatic Aberration, it's really bad there, and Uncharted is usually quite limited, more freedom in more complex enocunters being one of the key changes they made in Uncharted 4 (and are very proud of).

And Bloodborne, Persona 5 and Uncharted 4 are my most anticipated games this year, so...

About Xbox games, there are some of them that I would play if they came out on PC, but wouldn't buy an Xbone for them, so that's normal. It's not like they have any chance of coming out on PS4, so mentioning PC only is natural.

I feel like I'm the only person who not only doesn't mind the letterboxing, but appreciates its inclusion. I had the same opinion with The Evil Within. It makes the whole experience feel closer and claustrophobic. I wouldn't want it present in like, Far Cry or something. But I think it works to atmospheric games advantage.

Visually I think this game is the best looking ever. I don't think I've even seen a PC game that comes ahead of it.

I used to not mind it, and actually defend the artistic vision, but that was before I played The Evil Within. I regret getting it on PS4 just because of that. The FOV is awful, and the black bars only make it worse.

The Order actually doesn't seem anywhere near as bad as The Evil Within, but from now on I definitely hope every game going for it gives us the option to turn it off >_>

 

[Man]

Killzone Shadowfall is still the most impressive next-gen game. The wast array of technical achievements is just mindblowing.

 

[Seanspeed]

Yeah, usually downplaying them ..... Or in the Bloodbourne thread stating that it looks like crap or telling us how limited and meh Uncharted is, or how you would look forward to Forza coming to PC if it did and how PC streaming to Xbox would be awesome.

Never said Bloodborne looked like crap. I talked about not liking the CA in the game, though. I'm getting frustrated with CA in games in general. And I did say it wasn't a standout graphics title(which its not). But I still think it generally looks awesome, especially the art style, which is always more important to me than technically accomplished graphics.

Sorry for not liking Uncharted? Not sure what that has to do with anything. I thought TLOU was great, though.

And yes, Forza coming to PC would be awesome. So would PC streaming to XB1(since I would like a streaming PC for the living room anyways). Simple fact is that Microsoft, unlike Sony, have potential ties with PC due to Windows, so there is a lot for me to be interested in. Yet even so, I've said in other threads that I'm probably more likely to pick up a PS4 at some point, especially with Project Morpheus coming up.

You're really just proving my point more and more man. I happen to post in all sorts of topics. I'm sure its possible to selectively quote little bits here and there to craft some sort of narrative, but that's not very honest and it makes you look like the paranoid type I'm talking about, seeing 'the enemy' where they're not.

Correct me if I'm wrong (and really, please do correct me if I'm wrong) since I haven't played either and have only seen screenshots and videos, but isn't the latest AssCreed game a looker on a very capable PC? I'm talking strictly about IQ, textures, effects, etc. Not even performance.

Again, please correct me if I'm wrong.

A lot of people think AC Unity is a stunning game on PC. I haven't played it myself, but from screenshots and videos, I would say that it lacks(by far) the consistency in visuals that The Order has. Different scopes in the games and all, but if we're just judging what's there and not what is a bigger accomplishment, I think The Order is pretty easily the more striking game.

 

[FunkyPajamas]

A lot of people think AC Unity is a stunning game on PC. I haven't played it myself, but from screenshots and videos, I would say that it lacks(by far) the consistency in visuals that The Order has. Different scopes in the games and all, but if we're just judging what's there and not what is a bigger accomplishment, I think The Order is pretty easily the more striking game.

You know, I went and watched several AC videos after posting (to refresh my memory) and I think you're right. Sometimes it looks incredible but in a few minutes of the same "4K max settings" video I saw some inconsistency in hair, clothing textures and bush geometry. I think the scope of the game works against its IQ in certain cases.

 

[Gbraga]

AC Unity does look amazing on PC, HBAO+ makes a huge difference. Which is where The Order lacks the most, IMO, especially in indoors areas, everything looks like it's floating, their AO is kinda weird.

I'm also not fond of all the filters that make it more "CGI like", I always prefer clean IQ, so I'm never that impressed by it.

I was impressed by that example of POM in the article, though, that was quite cool.

You know, I went and watched several AC videos after posting (to refresh my memory) and I think you're right. Sometimes it looks incredible but in a few minutes of the same "4K max settings" video I saw some inconsistency in hair, clothing textures and bush geometry. I think the scope of the game works against its IQ in certain cases.

Oh, yeah, some of the faces are incredible during cutscenes, but the characters are definitely the lowest point in AC Unity, they don't seem to keep up with the environment, which is gorgeous, especially because of the lighting.

AC Victory will certainly be quite a looker, too, but I just can't stand this series anymore, I'll just keep an eye on the screenshot thread.

 

[perineumlick]

Killzone Shadowfall is still the most impressive next-gen game. The wast array of technical achievements is just mindblowing.

Funny you say this; I was just going through my capture gallery last night, comparing KZ and TO. TO looks almost a generation ahead of KZ, and I'm not exaggerating. And KZ still looks great.

 

[EGM1966]

In terms and of maintaining super stable fps with amazing visuals The Order on console is the new high bar for me.

The engine is solid throughout and not only are dips incredibly infrequent they're tiny in duration too: truly almost imperceptible.

I don't think they always made best of it gameplay wise but visually it's amazing. Props to DF for noticing the incredibly good loading speed too: it really is impressive given amount of detail and individual objects in each location.

Definately want to see more of this engine. Would welcome sequel too although they deffo need to improve their gameplay and narrative construction.

But the tech is clearly there for them for rest of gen now.

 

[Gbraga]

Props to DF for noticing the incredibly good loading speed too

Thank god for fast loading. :')

 

[ScepticMatt]

Oh, really? I had no idea.

Ended up with hybrid approach
 Majority of objects going through efficient full deferred shading path
 Forward+ rendering for materials that have very specific shading requirements
(mostly hair and eyes)

The Rendering Technology of Ryse - Crytek

The technology uses high dynamic range rendering with 64-bit precision that ensures superior picture quality with more realistic and precise lighting without losses derived from reduced contrast ratio. A flexible renderer prepared for deferred or forward+ rendering pipelines has a wide array of cinematic post-processing effects, including bokeh depth-of-field, color grading and flares from many lights. A high performance terrain system allows multiple material layers to be efficiently blended and uses tessellation for the best possible detail.

Examiner

 

[hiex_]

I used to not mind it, and actually defend the artistic vision, but that was before I played The Evil Within. I regret getting it on PS4 just because of that. The FOV is awful, and the black bars only make it worse.

The Order actually doesn't seem anywhere near as bad as The Evil Within, but from now on I definitely hope every game going for it gives us the option to turn it off >_>

I can definitely see FOV being a problem. I've never really felt affected by it so I'm not one to talk about it, but it's absolutely fair criticism.

 

[Gbraga]

The Rendering Technology of Ryse - Crytek


Examiner

Thanks for the links, quite interesting indeed.

I can definitely see FOV being a problem. I've never really felt affected by it so I'm not one to talk about it, but it's absolutely fair criticism.

I'd actually sprint all the time in the save rooms just so the camera would be pushed a bit back.

 

[pixlexic]

I wonder if they are actually squeezing the image between the black bars to get some free downsampling?

 

[Fezan]

Is it me or there is not much talk about graphics techniques used

 

[Stallion Free]

I wonder if they are actually squeezing the image between the black bars to get some free downsampling?

How would that be "free"? Downsampling 1080 vertical res down to 800 doesn't suddenly make it cost less than a normal 1080 vertical res.

 

[Handy Fake]

Gentlemen, let's not get too heated and enjoy ourselves some graphics talk.

I've only seen videos but the only thing I've seen that looks better to my eyes is Ryse downsampled from about 5k on my SLI rig. I Kean that from an IQ perspective.

Gentlemen, you can't fight in here - this is the War Room!