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[Loofy]

Personally I love motion controls, especially 1:1 controls where you'll actually have to lift your arm to shoot a gun or swing a sword(though it does get tiring). But it seems the majority hate it.
So are alot of VR enthusiasts planning to still be using a mouse/gamepad with their goggles?

 

[Krejlooc]

The people who answer "no" to the topic title likely have not tried virtual reality and/or dont understand the difference between gesture recognition and positional tracking.

 

[Zeyphersan]

I mean, my preferred control method will always vary on a game-to-game basis, but that's nothing new

There are a lot of new gameplay opportunities that we haven't even thought of yet that VR will bring. Motion controls are only the first step

 

[LegalEagleMike]

better with kinect


/s

 

[Randolph Freelander]

Not interested in either.

 

[DSix]

Yes this time it wont be a gimmick, but bring a genuine essential plus to the experience.

 

[Buzzman]

I have to admit it's pretty funny if in the span of one generation motion controls managed to explode in popularity, suddenly drop off and be considered a fad, then come back just a few years later.
Let's hope we get something more than just Wii Sports this time!

 

[YuShtink]

Virtual reality makes motion controls truly relevant for the first time. Instead of puppeting something on a screen and trying to translate your movements to what is happening on the tv, it is a true 1:1 extension of you in a virtual space. It's a rdically different experience from very familiar tech.

 

[NumberThree]

They can be pretty cool as long as you're not trying to replicate something that's (currently) impossible like sword fighting.

 

[EBE]

ive always been excited for motion controls. Kinect Sports, Dance Central, and Fable the Journey all occupy a place on my top ten games of all time.

 

[onimonkii]

Not interested in either.

pretty much. i just wanna sit in a chair in front of a desk and play games.

 

[StevieP]

Yes this time it wont be a gimmick, but bring a genuine essential plus to the experience.

If you considered it a gimmick before, it's still a gimmick now.

(In other words, it was never a gimmick with the negative connotation of the word)

 

[Auto-Reply]

Absolutely, it's like they were originally intendet for VR and never really should have been used for 2d gaming in front of a screen.

 

[Sendou]

As long as it works I'm fine with it. I only have issues with motion controls when they make playing games harder and less immersive rather than the opposite.

 

[Capitan]

I'm optimistic. Motion control in general can work pretty well with some games, but it's been worse than conventional control in most i've tried. That said, i haven't tried too many. Though, i got to try out oculus at pax, and it worked really well - head tracking and all. I'll probably pick one up when the consumer version releases - or an equivalent competitor.

 

[Buzzman]

Really guys? Suddenly we're claiming motion controls were never relevant till now and a gimmick huh?

Because I'm pretty sure we heard A LOT of the same stuff as now, "1:1 movement", "it's as if you're in the game!" "You are the controller!"

 

[Krejlooc]

I have to admit it's pretty funny if in the span of one generation motion controls managed to explode in popularity, suddenly drop off and be considered a fad, then come back just a few years later.
Let's hope we get something more than just Wii Sports this time!

The way "motion controls" work in VR is very different than how they were used on the Wii or Playstation Move or Kinect. Mostly, in the past, motion controls were merely ways to interpret gesture recognition, i.e. "move your arm along this path and if it's close enough to a path we expect, we will trigger a reaction." This amounted, often, to little more than the same sort of feedback that pressing a button gave. Even when this wasn't the case and they displayed positional tracking (i.e. Pointer controls), there was a large degree of separation between what you did with your body and what you saw happening across the room.

VR engages our ability to recognize the position of our limbs in 3d, without looking at them. This ability is called proprioception. It's how we can touch our hands to our noses with our eyes closed - we have enough cognizance to know where our hands are in 3D space without looking at them. We have varying degrees of proprioception in our bodyparts, but it's especially strong in the hands (and incredibly strong in our head).

Motion controls in VR engage our proprioception. We gain an intimate understanding of where our "inputs" are in space around us. We have entirely new concepts that get expressed to us in VR. As an example - some people can get really immersed in a game and begin to recognize the spatial mapping of the character they represent, even when playing a game across the room. Hence, when the avatar for the player is next to a door, someone can say "the door is to your right" and the player will basically immediately parse the sentence and realize which direction is "right" relative to the player they are controlling. But if, for example, someone said "the key is to the left of your right hand," most people don't have a degree of connection with their avatar across the room to the point where that location in space is instantly recognized.

In VR, it is. If you are looking at something else very intensely, say watching a gauge and you can't take your eyes off of it, while your hands are on some controls, and i tell you that you need to hit the switch to the right of your left hand, you instinctively know where that switch is in relation to not just your hand, but also your entire body. And that switch doesn't even exist!

Motion controls in VR are very, very cool stuff. This is an entire field of study unto itself. Endlessly fascinating.

 

[Branduil]

Of course. Controlling a VR FPS with dual analog would be like using a longbow in a battle against jet planes.

 

[Zalman]

I still think motion controls have their place in the industry. Actually, it's VR that I'm not sold out yet, so I guess I'm the opposite of most people here.

 

[Krejlooc]

"1:1 movement"

I don't remember hearing this. Mainly because it was never true. In fact, that was the immediate criticism about the Wiimote - it's accurate positional tracking was very limited, and the lack of a means to cancel out gravity from IMU double-integration to figure out position meant it was subject to drift.

I work with these next-gen positional tracking systems. they indeed are very accurate and track much closer to 1:1. They are close enough to engage your proprioception. This isn't snake oil.

 

[mrklaw]

I'm curious how they'll bridge the gap between reality and fantasy.

Presumably they will be much closer to 1:1 because you are in a virtual space and when you move your hand you will expect to see an equivalent movement in your avatars hand.

But how do you then mesh that with your game character looking cool while brandishing a crazy looking weapon, rather than it looking like Trespasser?

 

[CaptainSlow]

I've always liked motion controls and think they should have some space in the market, just not the huge focus it used to be. What I didn't like is around 2011-2012 when E3 was all Kinect and Move. When the controls work like they do in Wii Sports, Kinect Sports, D4, Child of Eden, and Heavy Rain (just to name a few I've played), it's fantastic.

 

[justsomeguy]

Definitely. Any time I've tried VR I've wished I could see my arms in-game

 

[Buzzman]

cool explanation

Woah shit, thanks for the effort post. No I agree that VR will of course be more immersive in a big way, but I just find it strange how people have been decrying motion controls as a gimmick while they've always, in a way, done the exact same thing, trying to immerse you in a world, not always as accurately as they can now but still!

I don't remember hearing this. Mainly because it was never true. In fact, that was the immediate criticism about the Wiimote - it's accurate positional tracking was very limited, and the lack of a means to cancel out gravity from IMU double-integration to figure out position meant it was subject to drift.

I think I remember hearing that a lot specifically with the Move.

Q: How precise is PlayStation Move?
A: The PlayStation Move is tracked completely 1:1, so its complete position and orientation are known.

 

[BocoDragon]

I would call motion controls in the Wii era one big missed opportunity. It became packaged with the "casual" boom and dismissed unfairly as "waggle"... I believe to this day that there was one core game that supported true motion control: Skyward Sword. And one game alone should not carry the whole concept on its back. Probably the fad was on its way out before that game was even released.... motion controls went to sleep.

But like all things... it will resurface. I don't like the idea that it's tied only to VR. But I think VR will bring it back in a way that we might someday find it reasonable to have motion control games in any visual format.

 

[Krejlooc]

I think I remember hearing that a lot specifically with the Move.

http://blog.us.playstation.com/2010/09/07/playstation-move-the-ultimate-faq/

The move doesn't rely on pure IMU reading for its positional tracking, it is not subject to the gravity error I mentioned earlier. The Move determines its position the same way the Oculus Rift does - it uses sensor fusion between the IMU embedded into the controller itself and outside-in positional tracking. As such, the Move is 1:1 accurate in 3D space. The only drawback is that it's subject to occlusion problems inherent to outside-in positional tracking.

This is what people meant when they'd say the Move was superior to the wiimote. The wiimote definitely was not 1:1.

Not that anything ever took advantage of the move being 1:1 accurate, for the reasons I explained in my initial post, about being across the room. The most immediately obvious benefits of such accurate tracking are only really noticeable in VR. Try using a wiimote in VR whenever its outside-in tracking system isn't in use (i.e. anytime it's not using pointer controls) and you'll see exactly what I mean.

 

[ExoSoul]

Things won't be freemaped so if there's gonna be restrictions I might as well use a confy controller instead of doing whatever motion the dev decided would fit.

 

[Buzzman]

Not that anything ever took advantage of the move being 1:1 accurate, for the reasons I explained in my initial post, about being across the room. The most immediately obvious benefits of such accurate tracking are only really noticeable in VR. Try using a wiimote in VR whenever its outside-in tracking system isn't in use (i.e. anytime it's not using pointer controls) and you'll see exactly what I mean.

Haha, If I had a testing environment where I could do any of that, sure. But seriously, I truly believe VR is the future and from what I've seen you post, you seem to be heavily invested in it. Keep up the good work in bringing us the future of entertainment!

 

[LesPaul]

I am not even intrested in VR sooooo no

 

[Astral/H3X]

When you guys are playing HL2, and you grab a grenade in your hand, like literally just looking down at your hand and there's a grenade... And you just... Toss it...

Then you'll believe. HL2 gives me nausea but I still go into the HL2VR training room, just to throw those grenades with my Hydra.

 

[Sidewinder]

Motion controls are made for VR, it's there they'll truly shine!

 

[Seanspeed]

This is a baiting thread a bit, cuz we all know how much the general gamer population rails against motion controls.

VR + motion controls is going to be an entirely different story. Its not just going to be a 'unique' way to interact with games/experiences, its going to increase your sense of presence massively. It is going to make things feel better and more natural than any game you've ever played before. Its going to open up entirely new gameplay mechanics and ways of playing games.

This is what motion controls were meant for all along, basically.

 

[Krejlooc]

Things won't be freemaped so if there's gonna be restrictions I might as well use a confy controller instead of doing whatever motion the dev decided would fit.

Freemapped? Decoupling as much control from your gaze is pretty much a given in virtual reality. It's a very obvious design trend. While, early on in VR's adoption (as in, right now) standard gamepads are still primarily used, there will be a tipping point very soon (basically when Valve's VR headset drops with dedicated positional tracking hardware in november) where decoupled controls will be the norm.

I cannot express enough how big of a deal decoupling your gaze from your hands is. It is an enormous deal, one of the single best design choices you can make in VR. Like I said, the more you can track and decouple, the better. You can take it a step further and begin tracking your upper body separate from your head and hands, and in our mod, we're going the full distance and tracking 7 points independently - head/gaze, upper body, both hands, hip, and both legs.

But that's an extreme example. You don't have to give up sitting down... although sitting in a chair that can swivel to let yourself freely rotate in space is quickly becoming a norm (yaw rotation without actually physically turning tends to feel not-so-good).

 

[Randam]

I'm not even excited for vr..

 

[Zaptruder]

Absolutely, with a big asterisk.

That is, I'm excited for Sixense STEM style motion controls - which still have you using an actual controller.

Buttons are just handy, especially for navigating menus and short cut keys. Indeed, combining the two will make them more effective than either control paradigm.

E.g. been able to push buttons contextually becomes much easier; place the controller over a VR door handle - press A to open.

Place the controller over a VR pen - press A to grab. Press trigger to click.

Place the controller over different menus and area locations - and each button has a different function and context.

Also, you can still move around independently of your physical location (so even if the 15 feet cubed tracking is robust, you can move way beyond 15 feet cubed in virtual environments with help of a controller).

 

[params7]

I never liked motion controls, just too much hassle. Never got into Wii/Kinect, etc. I can't wait for VR to arrive ever since I tried Occulus though.

So I'm not really sure about motion controls with VR but I'm open to it. I would still want VR games compatible with the regular controllers.

 

[Krejlooc]

Absolutely, with a big asterisk.

That is, I'm excited for Sixense STEM style motion controls - which still have you using an actual controller.

Buttons are just handy, especially for navigating menus and short cut keys. Indeed, combining the two will make them more effective than either control paradigm.

E.g. been able to push buttons contextually becomes much easier; place the controller over a VR door handle - press A to open.

Place the controller over a VR pen - press A to grab. Press trigger to click.

Place the controller over different menus and area locations - and each button has a different function and context.

Also, you can still move around independently of your physical location (so even if the 15 feet cubed tracking is robust, you can move way beyond 15 feet cubed in virtual environments with help of a controller).

You can actually do some really cool things with a thumbstick on a prepositionally tracked controller like the STEM. It engages your fingers and lets you feel like you're actually interacting with the world in front of you in a meaningful way, with something tangible you can feel. I know it's derided, but think of how heavy rain used it's thumbstick in QTE moments, and you'll get my idea. Build that sort of mechanic into a context-sensitive collision system and you get the idea. I've built lots of very small crude demos to play with this, stuff like standing in front of a door and fiddling with the lock by playing with the thumbstick.

You can also use the triggers and face buttons to make people approximate the shape of grips and pointing. A bit of outside the box thinking can take your control scheme to another level.

 

[bluexy]

VR will prove itself with how well it makes traditional gaming experiences better with head tracking and 3D. It's something that accents existing technology.

Motion controls are still in a very rudimentary state. Wands with buttons. Cameras tracking dots. Add on that in order to utilize this technology, developers have to create a new game experiences around it.

I mean, the problems with the Wii controller, the Move and the Kinect were not that they were terrible contraptions -- it's that making a game based around them that didn't suck was really hard to do. The best motion control games -- Wii Bowling, JS Joust, Dance Central -- they all found brilliant ways to use parts of the technology in really interesting ways (and hiding the limitations of the tech).

Motion controls are years away from being relevant. I'm sure there will be some very interesting experimental experiences with the stuff, but praise Carmack I really am not looking forward to the internet shitting its pants over how motion controls are terrible all over again.

 

[red731]

My childhood coming true. Of course I am hyped for everything VR that will boom this year.
Nothing is out, competition is already there, everything according to keikaku.

 

[Saintguine]

I've tried the devkit OR with Half-Life 2 and it's interesting but it's more of a technical novelty than something I'd be playing games with.

 

[astraycat]

So far my favorite VR experience has been STEM based; playing lazy badminton with lasers. It really felt like I was blocking lasers, though it could have been "well you moved enough in the right direction." I don't have a kit to test with, unfortunately.

Button based feedback systems are fine for things like VR camera platformers...but I wouldn't rely on such a system for a full VR game. But I think games like that have a great future too. R&C for example could benefit from having secrets visible when looking off target in VR views of the game.

 

[Converse]

I am playing Metroid Prime Trilogy and I am ready for motion controls to come back.

 

[Kallel]

BELIEVE!

 

[timetokill]

I loved the Wiimote and especially Wiimote+ controls, so for me they really never "left" in the first place.

 

[Stimpack]

When they can nail down the price and performance, I'll be all over it. I just want full finger recognition, though I'm sure that's a long ways down the line. At least that was always the dream when I was a kid, it's probably unrealistic.

I can't stand "wii" motion controls, though. Felt old and cruddy when it was brand new. Definitely not the kind of experience I would want in VR.

 

[spaceball_213]

I'm not even excited for vr..

That sucks.

 

[gofreak]

Impressions from the Heist demo are very, very encouraging. It sounds like it's amazing,.

Motion controls, at least those with positional tracking, were waiting for VR to make full sense of their potential I think. A 3D motion controller against a 2D screen at the other side of the room or whatever was only a partial step toward where things are going.

My only concern is that calibration issues (vs the situation, say, with Move on PS3) are minimized.

 

[Zaptruder]

You can actually do some really cool things with a thumbstick on a prepositionally tracked controller like the STEM. It engages your fingers and lets you feel like you're actually interacting with the world in front of you in a meaningful way, with something tangible you can feel. I know it's derided, but think of how heavy rain used it's thumbstick in QTE moments, and you'll get my idea. Build that sort of mechanic into a context-sensitive collision system and you get the idea. I've built lots of very small crude demos to play with this, stuff like standing in front of a door and fiddling with the lock by playing with the thumbstick.

You can also use the triggers and face buttons to make people approximate the shape of grips and pointing. A bit of outside the box thinking can take your control scheme to another level.

Absolutely. Sky is the limit with controller + motion functionality.

And it can be super useful outside of game and environment interactions as well.

Example - 3D modelling. Sculpting becomes much easier when you can use the trigger to add and substract materials at differential rates. Buttons that help you to change the shape of the tool/brush. Instant access to contextual functionality (e.g. scale, stretch, rotate, apply texture, etc).

 

[Shibalan]

Fuck yeah we are.

 

[astraycat]

Fuck yeah we are.

Wow, where is that from?

(edit: I mean the outer clip, where the guy is using the Moves.)