Support NeoGAF

[entremet]

Commander Shepard is a woman and Mass Effect sold well.

But the marketing featured Male Shepard almost exclusively?

Beaten by SolidSnakeX

 

[Deleted member 8095]

I couldn't care less who or what the protagonist is as long as the game is good. Would never buy/not buy a game just based on the protagonist.

 

[Trotski7]

I don't understand why these kinds of things matter so much to people?

Who cares if they MC is a girl, or black, or trans, or a dinosaur? Or whatever else? Like if master chief was a girl, I wouldn't give two shits. Or if Cloud from FF7 gay, it wouldn't matter. If Mario was actually a FtM sea turtle, literally nothing about my opinion of the game would change.

I have no idea how it makes the game any better or worse. Same reason I don't understand how "damsels in distress" is such a bad thing.. like.. it really doesn't matter that much and why people blow these things out of proportion so bad just goes miles above my head.

 

[Shadow_Lord]

ME is a good example of what I was talking about earlier when I said companies that have a gender select will choose to promote the male character as the lead

Dishonored 2 seems to promote the female character as the lead.

 

[Zornack]

Where are these big budget games with female protagonists that flopped with comparable male protagonist led games that did well?

I'm not understanding this sense of trepidation.

When you're putting tens to hundreds of millions of dollars into a game and it bombing could mean you're fired and hundreds to thousands of people underneath you are fired then you're going to go with what's safe. Games starring men have been successful, games staring women less so, and there's no reason to believe that a game starring a woman would make it more successful than if it starred a man. With this line of reasoning, why make the main character a woman over a man?

 

[Arcayne]

Good on Guerilla for sticking to their guns. If it was a male protag, I probably wouldn't bat an eye and chuck it up to a generic shooter. That said, it's depressing that game devs and publishers have to second guess themselves on whether or not to follow through with a female protag. This stigma against women in games is so archaic and stupid.

 

[Pyrrhus]

I like the way the female protagonist looks and moves, but it sounded like they had Jennifer Hale voicing her in that stock GI Jane voice she uses in everything. The voice sounded too old for the character and wrong in terms of accent and cadence for the post-apocalyptic new stone age sort of setting they were going for. Too contemporary and glib. I felt a similar disconnect when they had Nolan North and the female lead in Prince of Persia '08 banter like a couple of '90s sitcom leads in an ancient Persian setting.

But I don't guess they're going to change that because Hale is a popular name (if it really is Hale). Regardless, it just felt like a false step in the characterization based on the tiny bit shown. It feels like they wanted to reduce risk by going with a popular voice actress and worried about fitting in with the setting second.

 

[Zornack]

Good on Guerilla for sticking to their guns. If it was a male protag, I probably wouldn't bat an eye and chuck it up to a generic shooter. That said, it's depressing that game devs and publishers have to second guess themselves on whether or not to follow through with a female protag. This stigma against women in games is so archaic and stupid.

Are you for real? "It's sad that companies have to second guess who they want to make as their main character. That being said, if the main character was X then I wouldn't give the game a second thought."

 

[depths20XX]

I like the way the female protagonist looks and moves, but it sounded like they had Jennifer Hale voicing her in that stock GI Jane voice she uses in everything.

Yeah I really didn't like the voice either.

 

[Xplatformer]

Really i think that's just a reflection of the market, because i think the exact same thing could be said of (at least American) society at large over the last couple decades.

Agree. Look at any sci fi, fantasy..."nerd" entertainment setting. Women are more and more prominent yet racial diversity isn't.

It's a slow process, but it's an understandably slow process.

 

[KingK]

I think that has a lot to do with demographics as well. Women make up 51% of the world's population. What is considered traditional minorities is far less than that percentage by a mile. It is getting there based on percentages of demographics.

There have also been a lot of non white leads. They do not have to be specifically black to fit that narrative. There have been leads from Middle Eastern to Spanish/Latin/Native/Hispanic.

And a lot of games allow for character creation as well. Would I like to see more at a faster rate? I sure would, but again, it is demographics holding the speed of it more so I believe.

I think it's more than just women being a larger demographic. I think the fact that executives are willing to admit that female leads make them nervous, whereas you would never hear an exec say "we were nervous about how gamers would react to a black lead" gives an idea in the disparity of progress in representation. At least they now acknowledge that sexism exists, and judging by the amount of pretty good female leads at this E3, it's something that's seeing progress. That's because recognizing a problem is the first step in addressing it.

Meanwhile, there is no recognition of racism in gaming culture, and as far as i can tell no real efforts to increase minority representation by any publisher or developer. And like i said, i think it's a reflection of society as a whole. You see the same thing in Hollywood, politics, etc., where gender inequality and sexism may finally be gaining some recognition and traction in the cultural consciousness, but people are still hesitant to acknowledge racial inequality, since i feel like more people want to view racism on a societal level as a relic of the past that was settled decades ago when it's clearly not.

Anyway, Aloy is one if the best designed female leads I've seen, and i hope horizon is successful because it's my game of the show.

 

[Mula]

Judging from the shown Gameplay, she is great.

 

[toastyToast]

When you're putting tens to hundreds of millions of dollars into a game and it bombing could mean you're fired and hundreds to thousands of people underneath you are fired then you're going to go with what's safe. Games starring men have been successful, games staring women less so, and there's no reason to believe that a game starring a woman would make it more successful than if it starred a man. With this line of reasoning, why make the main character a woman over a man?

What are these points of reference and research data? I can understand not wanting to introduce risk when it can be completely skirted. What I'm more curious about is how we got to this point. Where are the good honest punts that flopped?

 

[Nirolak]

Dishonored 2 seems to promote the female character as the lead.

That's part of why this E3 stuck out. We had quite a few AAA story based games either with a female lead or promoting the female lead option.

 

[Zornack]

What are these points of reference and research data? I can understand not wanting to introduce risk when it can be completely skirted. What I'm more curious about is how we got to this point. Where are the good honest punts that flopped?

I don't have any of the data, but just the reality of action games starring women being much rarer than action games starring men makes it inherently more risky. There are tons of data points showing action games starring men being successful and very few showing action games starring women as being successful. With that in mind, if you're developing a game firstly based off of financial projections and secondly off of artistic integrity then you're probably not going to take that risk.

 

[Arcayne]

Are you for real? "It's sad that companies have to second guess who they want to make as their main character. That being said, if the main character was X then I wouldn't give the game a second thought."

Well, you managed to summarize my post, but omitted the very thing that addresses your point - "I'd chuck it up to another generic shooter if it was a male protag." We have plenty of male leads in shooters, a female lead is, to me, considered fresh and, as OP states, risky. So yes, I am for real.

 

[Kaako]

I freaking love their female protagonist and think it was one of the best things about Horizon that they showed. Her look and anatomy just fits and I <3 me some dreads! Aloy is fucking awesome.

I even remember when watching the live conference demo and just thinking how glad I was that she is the main protagonist and they didn't give in to the usual male dominated bullshit cuz of fear of sales. She animated beautifully and that put a big ass smile on my face.

 

[E_Darkness]

She seems fine, other than talking way too much. But I really hope that was just because it was a heavily scripted section for its reveal.

 

[SuperEpicGuy]

As long as the lead isn't some super manly girl like the dragon age inquisition leader girl then I'm fine.

ME is a good example of what I was talking about earlier when I said companies that have a gender select will choose to promote the male character as the lead

It's called marketing to the greater population. At the end of the day, there are less girls playing games like mass effect and horizon than guys. That's just how it is.

 

[Compsiox]

Didn't focus testing result in Insomniacs failure of a game?

 

[javac]

Fucking bums me out that this is actually still a concern, like that it actually scares them is fucking sad.

 

[machinecaliber]

I like the way the female protagonist looks and moves, but it sounded like they had Jennifer Hale voicing her in that stock GI Jane voice she uses in everything. The voice sounded too old for the character and wrong in terms of accent and cadence for the post-apocalyptic new stone age sort of setting they were going for. Too contemporary and glib. I felt a similar disconnect when they had Nolan North and the female lead in Prince of Persia '08 banter like a couple of '90s sitcom leads in an ancient Persian setting.

But I don't guess they're going to change that because Hale is a popular name (if it really is Hale). Regardless, it just felt like a false step in the characterization based on the tiny bit shown. It feels like they wanted to reduce risk by going with a popular voice actress and worried about fitting in with the setting second.

Hale seriously lol? Don't want to make assumptions but it sounded exactly the opposite for me. As far as age goes since they've said she's suppose to be a twenty something, if you the the reads skews higher that's totally reasonable.

 

[Infinite Justice]

That's part of why this E3 stuck out. We had quite a few AAA story based games either with a female lead or promoting the female lead option.

Yea even that Recore game which came out of nowhere mostly is a girl with her orb/robot companion(s?)

Should be interesting to see how all these things shake out.

 

[Zornack]

Well, you managed to summarize my post, but omitted the very thing that addresses your point - "I'd chuck it up to another generic shooter if it was a male protag." We have plenty of male leads in shooters, a female lead is, to me, considered fresh and, as OP states, risky. So yes, I am for real.

But then how can you find it depressing that they have to second guess the main character? They're just normally do it in the opposite direction from you. A certain portion of the audience will write off any action games with a generic male lead. A separate portion will write off any action game with a female lead. It just seems weird to me that you lament scenario 2 while being part of scenario 1.

 

[Shy Fingers]

Why would you be scared of having a female protagonist? It is not a stretch to say half the male player base plays as a female character in FFXIV.

Unless this falls under a demographic thing I'm not seeing.

 

[DesertFox]

Odd that the gender of the character had any bearing on their plans. I don't own a PS4, but damn that trailer for Horizon made me wish I had one.

 

[MadSol]

Male or female if the main character is uncharismatic, unapproachable, or not relate-able it ruins the experience, not solely for the character being one sex or the other.

 

[machinecaliber]

I freaking love their female protagonist and think it was one of the best things about Horizon that they showed. Her look and anatomy just fits and I <3 me some dreads! Aloy is fucking awesome.

I even remember when watching the live conference demo and just thinking how glad I was that she is the main protagonist and they didn't give in to the usual male dominated bullshit cuz of fear of sales. She animated beautifully and that put a big ass smile on my face.

I couldn't possibly concur with this sentiment anymore than I do and I think that's the hope of any creator as to not compromise their vision while in search of producing a profitable product at the same time in this instance. Having their cake and eating it too so to speak which is what I hope happens in this case, getting all dat money and the full realization of those creative choices.

 

[Bergerac]

I'm hyped for this. Finally a female protagonist that isn't all sexually dolled up and can kick ass. Dinobots! Plus I love red heads and bows lol. GG made this game for me.

Well...

 

[LuuKyK]

Why would you be scared of having a female protagonist? It is not a stretch to say half the male player base plays as a female character in FFXIV.

Unless this falls under a demographic thing I'm not seeing.

Its definitely different, sadly.

People that plays XIV as a female is certainly not included in the demographic that Sony was/is worried about.

 

[Arcayne]

But then how can you find it depressing that they have to second guess the main character? They're just normally do it in the opposite direction from you. A certain portion of the audience will write off any action games with a generic male lead. A separate portion will write off any action game with a female lead. It just seems weird to me that you lament scenario 2 while being part of scenario 1.

Hmm, interesting analysis of my post, but I understand how you arrived to that. Still, I feel my original post coherently addresses your question though. That being, I find it depressing that game devs are being swayed to change a female protag to male because it is "too risky" for profit and sales. Hense my comment on the stigma against having females as protag is saddening. I hope I clarified myself.

 

[i-Lo]

How well did Remember Me and Life is Strange do in terms of sales?

 

[DeepEnigma]

I think it's more than just women being a larger demographic. I think the fact that executives are willing to admit that female leads make them nervous, whereas you would never hear an exec say "we were nervous about how gamers would react to a black lead" gives an idea in the disparity of progress in representation. At least they now acknowledge that sexism exists, and judging by the amount of pretty good female leads at this E3, it's something that's seeing progress. That's because recognizing a problem is the first step in addressing it.

Meanwhile, there is no recognition of racism in gaming culture, and as far as i can tell no real efforts to increase minority representation by any publisher or developer. And like i said, i think it's a reflection of society as a whole. You see the same thing in Hollywood, politics, etc., where gender inequality and sexism may finally be gaining some recognition and traction in the cultural consciousness, but people are still hesitant to acknowledge racial inequality, since i feel like more people want to view racism on a societal level as a relic of the past that was settled decades ago when it's clearly not.

Anyway, Aloy is one if the best designed female leads I've seen, and i hope horizon is successful because it's my game of the show.

I can definitely agree with your assessment as well. Good post.

 

[ZoltanXerxes]

I'm really happy that the main character is female. She looks like a perfect fit as well. Very excited to play this game!

 

[Zornack]

Hmm, interesting analysis of my post, but I understand how you arrived to that. Still, I feel my original post coherently addresses your question though. That being, I find it depressing that game devs are being swayed to change a female protag to male because it is "too risky" for profit and sales. Hense my comment on the stigma against having females as protag is saddening. I hope I clarified myself.

Sure, and just to be clear I don't find your fatigue of male leads as being illegitimate. We can only play as so many grizzled middle aged men with beards, short hair and a deep voice before they all start to blend together into one. I just don't like the idea of dismissing a game simply because of it's protagonist, be they male or female, though I am the type of person who will take gameplay over setting/story/characters/etc. nine times out of ten, which I realize isn't how everybody feels.

As someone who certainly isn't against female protagonists it is definitely refreshing and interesting to see a female lead in a genre where, unless I'm mistaken, there has never been one before, at least not recently.

 

[silvermember]

How well did Remember Me and Life is Strange do in terms of sales?

Remember me kinda bombed and Life is strange supposedly did Ok enough for the CEO of SE to visit them.

However the failure of Remember ME had more to do with it being a mediocre game.

 

[Beatboxtaun]

Lol in what world is this an ugly person?

The video did not match up with this image.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

That's part of why this E3 stuck out. We had quite a few AAA story based games either with a female lead or promoting the female lead option.

Yup. Dishonored doesn't interest me, but it was pretty neat seeing her character.

Ubisoft also stuck out to me. One trailer they had Jacob or w/e his name is, and the other trailer they showed had his sister. But...the huge difference was that the trailer with jacob, the focus was just on him. Whilst the trailer with his sister was Jacob narrating about her, instead of you know..having her talk about herself. So in a backhanded way it all revolved around Jacob.

 

[BrianRoyale]

This was by far my favorite game showed, such a great surprise. The character design was fantastic, I'm glad they went for what they felt would be best despite the worry.

 

[Hypemaster]

It's sad they have to be nervous about that.

She has a great design and the game's concept and gameplay caught my interest, simple as that.

 

[Pop]

I would play as male, female or a rainbow colored alien. Doesn't matter to me.

Good decision Sony and Guerrilla.

 

[KMS]

Can't believe this is an issue. As an anime fan makes me think of all the anime over the years(though it's been getting better lately) with how women are always treated as the lesser.

 

[The Baron Count]

That's part of why this E3 stuck out. We had quite a few AAA story based games either with a female lead or promoting the female lead option.

Was the biggest thing that stood out to me as well. And it's pretty cool to see.

I'm sure these companies have some sort of data to back up the nervousness that some of them have in regards to this but I really can't see any evidence to support the idea that a game with a female lead would sell less.

Comes off to me a little like looking at female lead superhero movies and determining that the reason they did poorly was because of that as opposed to the fact that they were terrible movies.

If female lead games have sold less in the past overall, it was probably because they weren't very good.

 

[TheHolyTurnip]

You're already doing it wrong if you're relying on focus testing to decide who/what the character is. People don't know what they want until you give it to them. I wonder how focus testers would have reacted to James Sunderland or Samus...

 

[Arcayne]

Sure, and just to be clear I don't find your fatigue of male leads as being illegitimate. We can only play as so many grizzled middle aged men with beards, short hair and a deep voice before they all start to blend together into one. I just don't like the idea of dismissing a game simply because of it's protagonist, be they male or female, though I am the type of person who will take gameplay over setting/story/characters/etc. nine times out of ten, which I realize isn't how everybody feels.

As someone who certainly isn't against female protagonists it is definitely refreshing and interesting to see a female lead in a genre where, unless I'm mistaken, there has never been one before, at least not recently.

You have valid points, I agree. I too prioritize gameplay over all else (mostly anyways), but this is a thread about Sony being nervous on having a female protag, so I commented within the realm of 'male vs female' and etc. Shame I'm at work though, it's been a great conversation. Cheers!

 

[Nirolak]

Yup. Dishonored doesn't interest me, but it was pretty neat seeing her character.

Ubisoft also stuck out to me. One trailer they had Jacob or w/e his name is, and the other trailer they showed had his sister. But...the huge difference was that the trailer with jacob, the focus was just on him. Whilst the trailer with his sister was Jacob narrating about her, instead of you know..having her talk about herself. So in a backhanded way it all revolved around Jacob.

Syndicate is a bit of a different case since Evie only appears in 20-25% of the game if the original rumors hold true, which makes me suspect that's actually a case of them seeing the response they got last year and adding her in mid-production.

It will probably become apparent while playing the game if all the important story beats also do not include her.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Syndicate is a bit of a different case since Evie only appears in 20-25% of the game if the original rumors hold true, which makes me suspect that's actually a case of them seeing the response they got last year and adding her in mid-production.

It will probably become apparent while playing the game if all the important story beats also do not include her.

That's the worst kind of thing that can happen. if she was really added in mid production of the game, then they're basically pandering and her character might suffer for it if she was literally just written in.

 

[Nirolak]

That's the worst kind of thing that can happen. if she was really added in mid production of the game, then they're basically pandering and her character might suffer for it if she was literally just written in.

I suspect she was in the game, but that she wasn't playable, a la Elise.

 

[Apt101]

It's a shame this was a concern here in 2015. Even with two of the most beloved game characters of all time being female: Samus Aran and Lara Croft.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

I suspect she was in the game, but that she wasn't playable, a la Elise.

That would be much better, than, because atleast her character was written before they started development.