Then you're a fool.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Sony was nervous about Horizon's female protagonist, did lots of focus testing
- Thread starter Nirolak
- Start date
Then you're a fool.
Well if anything I feel Yoshida has given more freedom on that subject to WWS. I think he's just worried sometimes because of sales numbers and that's his job but it seems he leaves some freedom on decision to the studios. We've had this story, we've had Naughty Dog saying they were gonna keep Ellie on the front of The Last of Us' box, I know I've seen a fair amount of WWS games that have had female playable characters like InFamous First Light and Gravity Rush.
This E3's been fine for that though. A decent list.
No, Capcom didn't turn down Remember Me because of a female character unlike other publishers, Square-Enix had a good amount of female characters to their conference including being hte publishers of Tomb Raider, Nintendo employs a lot of females, I see more female names in the JP part of these credits than the rest of the credits combined:
And this statement in general is simply untrue.
Turin Turambar
Member
It wasn't a totally serious statement.
It isn't like Japanese companies have a lot of power in the video game industry any more, lol.
entremet
Member
Huh?
This was in 87.
Looks dated and silly now, but this was a Japanese developer.
LudicrousSpeed
Member
Ubisoft has a problem in that regard.
There was some survey they sent out recently asking people what they wanted to know more about. There was a line for Jacob that described his character. There was also a line for Evie, which described her as "Jacob's sister".
I just read on Videogamer that GG thought they were going to be "slaughtered" by people's reactions to the setting after the concept art leaked a year ago:
http://www.videogamer.com/ps4/horiz...by_community_over_horizon_zero_dawn_leak.html
Have more faith, Guerilla! Come on.
http://www.videogamer.com/ps4/horiz...by_community_over_horizon_zero_dawn_leak.html
Have more faith, Guerilla! Come on.
MrNyarlathotep
Banned
No, but anyone in marketing who thinks they can't market a product that is immediately differentiated from numerous other similar titles solely by virtue that it has a lead character visibly different to many other similar products is - frankly - shit at their job.
Gamespawn
Member
I think it's a combination of things. GG is ongoing and most games with female protagonists they've published have performed either average or below average. Sonys been tightening their wallets the last few years so I understand the hesitation by HQ. Glad they didn't change the original vision.
shoryukens
Member
She looks great!
Guerilla did a great job.
Guerilla did a great job.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Have you not seen JRPG's the last 25 years, where the women look like girls, and the men look like women?
Open world action rpg.
Let's first precise home console industry because if we're talking mobile gaming and handheld gaming worldwide then this is quite the opposite.
So, home console industry. It'd be silly to compare to 20 years ago but there's been quite a few titles on display this E3.
The Last Guardian, Shenmue III, Final Fantasy VII R, Final Fantasy XV, Persona 5, Kingdom Heart III, Xenoblade Chronicles X, Zelda Triforce Heroes, Street Fighter V, Metal Gear Solid V, Super Mario Maker, Dark Souls III, Transformers: Devastation, Scalebound, Star Fox Zero, Yoshis Wooly World, Fire Emblem Fates, #FE, Star Ocean 5, Nier 2, ReCore, Project Setsuna...
Not to mention Bloodstained just beat the Kickstarter funding record, Shenmue III seems on its way to beat it again and Bloodborne is one of the biggest contenders for game of the year so far while Splatoon is my personal GOTY. So I hope this wasn't a serious statement either. They're still present in home console gaming, not as big as the heights of Capcom, Konami, Sega but they've gone for more lucrative ventures in mobile (which is still part of the video game industry) so...
Last year was disappointing as far as female characters go but this year's E3 has had trends that respond to your claims in a positive way for us players looking for variety in genre, characters, developers and art styles.
Angry Fork
Member
I think lots of people on gaf underestimate how many casual male gamers are not interested in playing as a woman and want to play as a guy. Not saying that's right but if a company wants to sell 4 mil+ on a game that's why they sweat over things like a female protagonist.
There's been tons of studies done on it in various industries. The general result is that media with female leads/emphasis do sell less on average.
The problematic thing is that there is comparatively so few pieces of media with dominant female roles, even in children's books, that it becomes a echoing effect. Because female leads are comparatively less tested, they tend not to get the marketing budgets of media with male leads.
.
So then the question becomes... are games with female leads reviewing more poorly and selling more poorly because the games don't receive on average as high a budget for polish and for marketing purposes? Is that the root cause, or is there something fundamental at play?
Because studies have been done on the interplay between men and how they relate to female characters and vice versa. And these studies mostly do suggest that there is something that makes men especially have huge gender bias toward roles that are female. They are more likely to review such films/books/games poorly, more likely to find criticisms of characters that would never apply to men (Skylar in Breaking Bad is a perfect example) and more likely to avoid them altogether.
AmaterasuOni
Banned
I'd like to know one thing. Let's take a game like Destiny. Online game where you can choose your gender. How many percent are female compared to total created characters.
dragonbane
Member
Its around 2 million atm, which isnt half bad considering the budget was near identical to Heavy Rains, which made a lot of profit at 3 million sales and broke even before 2 million.
AlwaysPlaying
Member
The game looks amazing anyway.The gender of the main character didnt really even register.
Interesting points. The lack of budget received may have to do with the perceived risk for what AAA games are considered to be in gameplay genre, tropes and targeted players (ie generally shooters with a male soldier targeting male teenagers and young adults). Those types of games get the most funding and the more risky ones don't get marketed as much. I don't think it's warranted though. We've seen games with female characters sell well. Thankfully the reception to Horizon should reassure Sony they can take the risk to pump as much marketing money as they would in Uncharted and prove it's been a misconception from the start. While they may lose some sales from the 10% (or so) male teens that said they wouldn't play a game starring a female character, they might bring in some new female players by advertising it during Hunger Games or something and make up for it. Added diversity to the gaming landscape would help open the industry beyond the traditional demographics the majority of the budget went to.
FallenGrace
Member
It's really sad this is still an issue
I personally prefer a female lead so i'm glad they stuck with it.
I personally prefer a female lead so i'm glad they stuck with it.
I find nothing wrong with this, they are a company that needs to make money. Every game is a risk, they wanted to make sure what they were producing would be something that consumers wanted.
The test came back as "NO FEMALE LEADS" then my issue would be with the community tested, not with Sony.
But... as someone who has played WoW for almost a decade now... I don't know anyone who doesn't have at least female alt lol
The test came back as "NO FEMALE LEADS" then my issue would be with the community tested, not with Sony.
But... as someone who has played WoW for almost a decade now... I don't know anyone who doesn't have at least female alt lol
I know its the not the same but still
Shadow_Lord
Member
I dunno which is more laughable, this, or Ueda thinking people wouldn't remember TLG
Look at WoW (Belfs).... people have no problem playing as females.
Or GG with "'Oh God, what's going to happen now? They're gonna see f*****g Vikings riding on T-rexs.'"
Lol it must be do or die over there at Sony
Then your reading comprehension skills leave something to be desired since you're making some big assumptions there.
Shpeshal Nick
aka Collingwood
You'd think Sony would be more progressive than that. Especially given the number of games last gen with female leads.
Perfect Dark
Heavenly Sword
Tomb Raider
Beyond
Remember Me
Mirrors Edge
I mean, Sony funded 2 of those and WERE funding Remember Me at one point.
Perfect Dark
Heavenly Sword
Tomb Raider
Beyond
Remember Me
Mirrors Edge
I mean, Sony funded 2 of those and WERE funding Remember Me at one point.
Hypereides
Gold Member
Worries which were unfounded. She seems like a great character. The software market for female leads could use more competition.
And then I'd like to know the difference between that and Splatoon's ratio. I see female characters everywhere in Splatoon. In Destiny I don't see nearly as many female characters running around.
timetokill
Banned
lol, Sony
Come on
Come on
Confounding Factor
Banned
in 2055: Sony was nervous about the spiritual successor to Horizon's transgendered protagonist, did lots of robot focus testing.
I'm trying to fathom why'd they be nervous.
Everyone that saw the reveal had reactions that at worst were "this looks pretty cool," and at best were "I NEED THIS RIGHT NOW!" Like, this will have no problem selling if the game delivers.
I'm glad they hold their stance and went with the female protagonist. It's a wonderful breath of fresh air.
Everyone that saw the reveal had reactions that at worst were "this looks pretty cool," and at best were "I NEED THIS RIGHT NOW!" Like, this will have no problem selling if the game delivers.
I'm glad they hold their stance and went with the female protagonist. It's a wonderful breath of fresh air.
I'm on the same page as you. But the only way it's going to change over the long-term is with an entire systemic change in the roles society gives to females. That means changing marketing strategies, adopting a more inclusive, gender-neutral position, even if initially it means less sales, the goal is to change patterns over a few generations until we can normalize female and male positions in society and its cultural zeitgeist.
A good example of how significant of an impact social pressure on gender norms and female inclusion can be is what happened to the field of Computer Sciences.
For decades, the number of women in computer sciences was growing at a rate exponentially faster than men. At that rate, it would have surpassed men sometime in the late 80s. But as this NPR broadcast illustrates, something changed in 1984. Personal Computers started being in homes in large numbers. And those personal computers were almost uniformly marketed toward boys, to the point where quickly a stigma came to exist that computers were for solely for boys.
There were other associated things that also led to these conditions, but the end result was being a tech geek was considered "unattractive" for females, and yet somehow OK when men joined the field.
The number of females entering computer sciences slowly began to flatline, until it dipped and dipped and dipped until today they make up 17% of the entire field. This is down from a steadily rising 34% in the 80s, and had this change not occurred we would have almost certainly seen female population in computer sciences near 50%. Imagine how different and inclusive computer technology might have been had this been the case. Imagine how many unique perspectives and game experiences we never got to have due to this. Imagine all the intelligent voices silenced due to society's nonsense.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Well, a number of things I suppose. It's a new IP, whilst Tomb Raider is an existing 20 year old IP at this point. And Tomb Raider has always been the exception when it comes to having a popular female lead in a popular series.
unknownstranger
Member
Perfect Dark was at the start of last gen and never got another retail game after that to judge. Remember Me, Mirrors Edge and Heavenly Sword all flopped to some extent. Tomb Raider and Beyond are the only exceptions and Tomb Raider has a long pedigree to help carry it. That's also only 6 games over an 8 year span.
A single popular game with a female lead does not disprove the complicated notion of certain groups preferring particular gender roles in their games and sales being impacted due to that.
That's why we have statistics - we don't look at a single example, we look over many many examples to see if a trend emerges. There's always going to be exceptions, and that just says it's not impossible to do it. But it says nothing to the harsh realities of how difficult it might be to resonate with the audience, how much added risk you bring to the production, and how people might relate to the characters therein with subconscious gender bias.
The question is if we for example give games with women lead protagonists equal budgets and marketing pushes, would they then sell equally as well as the games with male leads? Unfortunately no such study has been done, because to my knowledge there has been no promise from any developer to dedicate such resources to a game with a female lead. I bet Sony will do it for Horizon, but that'd also be a single data point... and if you add Tomb Raider next to it, that'd be two
BreezyLimbo
Banned
A single popular game with a female lead does not disprove the complicated notion of certain groups preferring particular gender roles in their games and sales being impacted due to that.
That's why we have statistics - we don't look at a single example, we look over many many examples to see if a trend emerges. There's always going to be exceptions, and that just says it's not impossible to do it. But it says nothing to the harsh realities of how difficult it might be to resonate with the audience, how much added risk you bring to the production, and how people might relate to the characters therein with subconscious gender bias.
The question is if we for example give games with women lead protagonists equal budgets and marketing pushes, would they then sell equally as well as men? Unfortunately no such study has been done, because to my knowledge there has been no promise from any developer to dedicate such resources to a game with a female lead. I bet Sony will do it for Horizon, but that'd also be a single data point... and if you add Tomb Raider next to it, that'd be two
We also have Lightning and the FFXIII set. That'd be 3. But it's still a small dosage compared to the number of games out there.
In order to really judge that case, we'd have to extrapolate the data in a different way. We'd need to understand the context of the sales expectations for a Final Fantasy game - a very popular old established IP - and see if the sales for FFXIII were significantly less than those of previous titles in the series, or at least if it's even less sales than the expected decrease trajectory the series was naturally going through.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
It'd be a bit muddy, I tend to single out FFXIII because even between FF fans it was a polarizing game, especially when it managed to get 2 sequels in the same world. Probably not the best example in the case of a AAA game with female lead, but it's a game with a female lead nevertheless. When compared within the FF brand it'll probably have done less than previous entries, but at the same time it was multiplatform compared to previous entries so it might have done more than previous entries.
There's alot of factors to this. Horizon will be an exclusive game, Tomb Raider is a timed exclusive(And that series went from PS exclusive to multiplatform), and FFXIII was a multiplatform.
When you take that into account, Horizon is an extremely risky game on to have it on one platform.
Didn't it do like a third of Heavy Rain's sales or so? What least from what I remember.
This make me think, last year leak from a Chinese website was leaked intentionally and was one of the 'tests'. The Chinese website has good relationship with Sony and they made the information very official.