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[EmptySpace]

i love how before we've even seen games for unreleased peripherals, we are already being told what games we will see.

yes, it's a good thing you work on vr. no, i'll wait for devs like media molecule or whatever sony has to offer before downplaying the whole thing.

 

[inpHilltr8r]

Can performance in Unity on Android be used as a benchmark and safely be extrapolated to PS4?

Short answer, yes. Long answer, no because Unity has overheads due to it's very nature.

Why is only 1.5ms left for "All the AI pathfinding execution, all the hardware polling. Things like audio mixing, logic updates..."
Can't some of these be run in parallel? Or does the 1.5ms refer to the amount of empty slots of execution time running in parallel with other stuff? If it's the latter, very bad indeed.

Game logic and audio mixing can totally be disconnected from the world simulation and render loops. If you have processing holes in spare cores, you can fit them there. You won't notice latency in characters route finding, nor in the audio mixer logic.

 

[LookAtMeGo]

Its only the begining and it has to start sometime.

Bit ya its good to have your expectations in place.

 

[Piggus]

VR marketing words make me laugh. Presence. Muhahahhahahahaaa!!!

Oh look, someone who has never tried VR.

You don't need super realistic graphics to feel a sense of "presence" in VR. Even Minecraft in VR feels like you're in a real place.

 

[TrojanBlade]

I got the google cardboard and tried with my iPhone 5 to get the taste of VR. Oh boy!! I was thoroughly disappointed by the demos I tried. No feeling of presence, it was awkward to look at and it sucked big time. I just got excited with all the VR talk on GAF and had to try something.

Now I hope these real VR hardware experiences are at least 1000 times better than that shit cardboard experience. I am hoping to try Morpheus before I throw any money on it.

My question to you guys who have tried both GC and actual hardware based VR systems, is the difference night and day?

 

[Man]

My question to you guys who have tried both GC and actual hardware based VR systems, is the difference night and day?

Completely different.
Cardboard is not within any criteria that makes VR click.

 

[viveks86]

I got the google cardboard and tried with my iPhone 5 to get the taste of VR. Oh boy!! I was thoroughly disappointed by the demos I tried. No feeling of presence, it was awkward to look at and it sucked big time. I just got excited with all the VR talk on GAF and had to try something.

Now I hope these real VR hardware experiences are at least 1000 times better than that shit cardboard experience. I am hoping to try Morpheus before I throw any money on it.

My question to you guys who have tried both GC and actual hardware based VR systems, is the difference night and day?

This is one of those situations where one can safely say "you get what you paid for". The difference is indeed night and day

 

[TrojanBlade]

Ok good to hear that.guys as the cardboard experience left a lot to be desired. The only cool thing about it was viewing the 360 views on cardboard app.

 

[useyourfist]

I find the limited selection of apps on android good, so I am not too worried about the quality of VR games on pc or console.

I will just keep my expectations in check.

 

[TrojanBlade]

I find the limited selection of apps on android good, so I am not too worried about the quality of VR games on pc or console.

I will just keep my expectations in check.

Sure but my minimum expection is that of presence. That's the absolute minimum for a VR system. If it can't do that then I think it's a failure and it's just 3D with 360 view which is what I felt with the cardboard. No feeling of immersion or being there and that's what left me disappointed.

 

[amnesiac]

I got the cardboard yesterday and I thought it was pretty cool for only $5. I felt a slight 'presence' in some of those Explore pictures.

 

[Seanspeed]

Sure but my minimum expection is that of presence. That's the absolute minimum for a VR system. If it can't do that then I think it's a failure and it's just 3D with 360 view which is what I felt with the cardboard. No feeling of immersion or being there and that's what left me disappointed.

What it demonstrates is the wide FoV along with a strong, more realistic sense of depth than what we're used to with typical 3D. Calling it 'just 3D' is probably selling it short still.

It should provide a taste of VR, it is not supposed to be great VR in and of itself.

 

[Maiden Voyage]

People are expecting No Man's Sky to support VR on PS4 already without an announcement and without any graphical degredation? And The Witness? Will high end PCs even be capable of this without sacrifices?

I think optimism is a good thing, but this seems unrealistic.

 

[kyser73]

I think what worries me is that the PS4 will struggle with VR.
I know Sony are hopefully paving the future for themselves but it comes across as something that should have launched with PS5.
I hope I'm wrong.

Go check out MixedBag Games developer Skyrise on the Lets Talk About Games Coming to Morpheus thread

His company are developing a 120fps game for Morpheus.

http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=167609749

 

[Saint of Killers]

I see many people talking about No Man's Sky in Morpheus discussions but I am unable to find any announcement that it will be compatible with Morpheus.

I have to doubt that it will be possible on the PS4 but would love to be proven wrong. Obviously the game is an amazing candidate for VR support but I I don't think you can assume that NMS will be a Morpheus game.

That assumption, in part, is based on Hello Games releasing images of their workplace some of which focused on their Morpheus kit.

 

[Hilti92]

I think one of the more exciting VR situations, if it gets done, will be entering a sports stadium, whether football or hockey, and witnessing what professional athletes witness. 30000 screaming fans surrounding you.

 

[Maiden Voyage]

That assumption, in part, is based on Hello Games releasing images of their workplace some of which focused on their Morpheus kit.

Which could also mean they're just toying around or developing something else independent of NMS. It's a stretch to assume this means NMS will be on Morpheus. And an even larger stretch assuming PS4 hardware can handle NMS without a severe downgrade.

I hate to sound pessimistic but I have a hard time believing PS4 hardware will be able to handle these games.

 

[Seanspeed]

Which could also mean they're just toying around or developing something else independent of NMS. It's a stretch to assume this means NMS will be on Morpheus. And an even larger stretch assuming PS4 hardware can handle NMS without a severe downgrade.

I hate to sound pessimistic but I have time believing PS4 hardware will be able to handle these games.

I don't think their team is big enough to be working on multiple projects like that.

But yea, just having a dev kit doesn't mean they are definitely going to have Morpheus support. I think beyond just the graphical side of things, what is going to be extra difficult is getting the first person on-foot aspects comfortable.

 

[Maiden Voyage]

I don't think their team is big enough to be working on multiple projects like that.

Didn't they start NMS while working on a Joe Danger game?

 

[RulkezX]

Didn't they start NMS while working on a Joe Danger game?

When the game was first shown at VGX the team was 4 people strong.

 

[Z3M0G]

This video might help you understand why you don't simply use two halves of a screen or two screens simply up close, and what the lenses are doing and how you compensate for that - barrel distortion, which also means rendering internally higher than the panel(s) resolution - https://youtu.be/B7qrgrrHry0?t=2m47s

This dude reminded me that it is not just ideal distance of the lenses from your eyes that could vary person to person (why each headset has a slider for this), but also the distance BETWEEN your two eyes. And everyone is just going with an adverage for this? Or does the software typically provide an option to adjust the rendered image for this?

 

[Maiden Voyage]

When the game was first shown at VGX the team was 4 people strong.

Yeah and the others at Hello Games were working on a Joe Danger game. Am I remembering that correctly?

 

[Seanspeed]

Didn't they start NMS while working on a Joe Danger game?

I don't know. But NMS isn't some little pet project. Especially with all the hype put on it, I would think they are putting full effort on making it as hype-fulfilling as possible.

 

[Maiden Voyage]

I don't know. But NMS isn't some little pet project. Especially with all the hype put on it, I would think they are putting full effort on making it as hype-fulfilling as possible.

Currently, it is not a pet project. I think it had humble beginnings however, which was my point. If their VR project has similar beginnings, they could easily be a multiple project company.

 

[kyser73]

Currently, it is not a pet project. I think it had humble beginnings however, which was my point. If their VR project has similar beginnings, they could easily be a multiple project company.

NMS started life as a 'black' project between 4 of the HG staff - they literally had a room where they were sketching out the basis of the game and refining the math for the procedural generation that only they were allowed to enter. Bear in mind this is a company with about 15 people working for it. It was never a 'pet' project - Sean has said that he wanted to do something 'more' than churn out sequels to Joe Danger in the same way that he founded HG out of a desire to do 'more' than work for Criterion on NFS & Burnout.

The Morpheus rumours came about because of a magazine shot that showed a Morpheus headset in the office (alongside an old NES lightgun), and then later when Sean had to cancel a GDC talk he was due to give on bringing NMS to VR. Since they are currently focusing solely on the PS4 release of NMS, people have put 2+2+2 together and come up with 6.3.

 

[POWERSPHERE]

Well game graphics are becoming more irrelevant in 2D so weve got something to look forward to as we get back up There with VR in 5 or so years

 

[qa_engineer]

Ok good to hear that.guys as the cardboard experience left a lot to be desired. The only cool thing about it was viewing the 360 views on cardboard app.

Did you really expect a cardboard box + phone would be indicative of a true VR experience or comparable to dedicated hardware? I don't want to come off like a dick, but seriously?

Edit:I have cardboard and its a novelty item. and while it does capture the essence of VR, it is not a true VR experience imo

 

[BaldusCattus]

This dude reminded me that it is not just ideal distance of the lenses from your eyes that could vary person to person (why each headset has a slider for this), but also the distance BETWEEN your two eyes. And everyone is just going with an adverage for this? Or does the software typically provide an option to adjust the rendered image for this?

While a perfectly tuned IPD (Interpupillary distance) can only help, in practice I don't think it's that big a deal. All demos and prototypes that have been available to the public and press at the big shows use a default IPD, for example.

 

[Blanquito]

I'm curious what your thoughts are now that a game like Rigs http://www.roadtovr.com/hands-on-with-rigs-the-best-looking-project-morpheus-vr-game-so-far/ is playable.

Excellent anti-aliasing, high geometry scenery and mechs really give Rigs the feeling of a triple-A experience. It’s a welcome change from the more simplistic target stylings of the majority of early Morpheus titles. It’s also rendered smoothly, with low persistence of vision allowing the screen to melt away becoming a window on the action instead. This is early code of course, and there were a couple of occasions where frame-rate faltered, but for the most part it was near flawless.

 

[M3d10n]

Extrapolating their experience developing for mobile hardware to console and PC is very short sighted in my opinion. The gulf in performance is massive, not to mention the severe problems of Android GPU drivers as well as CPU throttling. And while sacrifices need to be made to account for the need to render in stereo and to reach high frame rates there's still room to provide acceptable graphics without need to resort to stylized graphics or Dreamcast-tier lighting and texturing with blob shadows.

 

[Seanspeed]

I'm curious what your thoughts are now that a game like Rigs http://www.roadtovr.com/hands-on-with-rigs-the-best-looking-project-morpheus-vr-game-so-far/ is playable.

I'd say it still reinforces the notion that compromises are necessary.

It's a decent looking game, but it's also pretty small in size and scope, with very limited environmental detail. And this is coming from a 1st party studio that is considered one of the best in the business in terms of technical proficiency.

 

[hesido]

I'd say it still reinforces the notion that compromises are necessary.

It's a decent looking game, but it's also pretty small in size and scope, with very limited environmental detail. And this is coming from a 1st party studio that is considered one of the best in the business in terms of technical proficiency.

I don't think anybody can argue against compromises being a necessity, but this doesn't at all look stone age to me. Especially when these are the first iterations of software months away from release, there is still time for further improvement.

 

[Train of Midnight]

It's difficult to tell which platform he's talking about when he speaks of physical limitations. Surely he's not completely ignoring PC and only basing experiences off Morpheus and GearVR limitations?

 

[mrdeiz]

The whole tech is about to flourish once Oculus Rift gets released (mid 2016) and even now some decent VR sites start to emerge like those at http://vrfavs.com/

There're like 100 games already and it's going to get even more soon

 

[Shai-Tan]

from op:

For those unfamiliar with foveated rendering - it's a technique to enable us to mimic more accurately how our vision actually works. We don't see with clarity but save for a very tiny area in the center of our vision. This area - about the size of a pin-head - is where our fovea is centered. Extending from that point outword to the extents of our vision, we get progressively blurrier. Most of our vision and what we see is our brains filling in the gaps with the limited amount of extremely blurry visual data we are getting from our eyes.

the problem with using that model is that the eye has very fast saccadic movements which allow near instant shifts across a scene. How exactly does that translate into a game engine?

 

[Seanspeed]

from op:



the problem with using that model is that the eye has very fast saccadic movements which allow near instant shifts across a scene. How exactly does that translate into a game engine?

You want the specific code for it or something? Not sure what you're asking. It's a different rendering technique. And both the eye tracking and the rendering changes have to be very fast. Not something we can do right now, but it should eventually be possible.

It will basically be the holy grail for VR and the only way we're gonna be able to run headsets with super high FoV and resolution with modern-ish graphics anytime in the near future.

 

[Circle Jerk]

The whole tech is about to flourish once Oculus Rift gets released (mid 2016) and even now some decent VR sites start to emerge like those at http://vrfavs.com/

There're like 100 games already and it's going to get even more soon

Man, what a weird post to bump a month old thread over

 

[Fafalada]

How exactly does that translate into a game engine?

VR applications already have to respond at <10ms rate to make VR possible. Foveated render-updates could be considerably faster yet. So it translates "quite well" I guess?

The open-questions are with regards to Eye-Tracking hardware response (and its size - I'm not sure they'd even fit in Headsets yet), screen-refresh behaviors etc.

 

[gunslikewhoa]

Man, what a weird post to bump a month old thread over

Well...

Domain Name: VRFAVS.COM
Registrar: GODADDY.COM, LLC
Sponsoring Registrar IANA ID: 146
Whois Server: whois.godaddy.com
Referral URL: http://registrar.godaddy.com
Name Server: NS05.DOMAINCONTROL.COM
Name Server: NS06.DOMAINCONTROL.COM
Status: clientDeleteProhibited http://www.icann.org/epp#clientDeleteProhibited
Status: clientRenewProhibited http://www.icann.org/epp#clientRenewProhibited
Status: clientTransferProhibited http://www.icann.org/epp#clientTransferProhibited
Status: clientUpdateProhibited http://www.icann.org/epp#clientUpdateProhibited
Updated Date: 20-jul-2015
Creation Date: 20-jul-2015
Expiration Date: 20-jul-2016

>>> Last update of whois database: Tue, 21 Jul 2015 19:29:52 GMT <<<

considering the fact that it was just registered yesterday, it's obviously spam

 

[pje122]

Haha oh man.

 

[Circle Jerk]

Well...

Domain Name: VRFAVS.COM
Registrar: GODADDY.COM, LLC
Sponsoring Registrar IANA ID: 146
Whois Server: whois.godaddy.com
Referral URL: http://registrar.godaddy.com
Name Server: NS05.DOMAINCONTROL.COM
Name Server: NS06.DOMAINCONTROL.COM
Status: clientDeleteProhibited http://www.icann.org/epp#clientDeleteProhibited
Status: clientRenewProhibited http://www.icann.org/epp#clientRenewProhibited
Status: clientTransferProhibited http://www.icann.org/epp#clientTransferProhibited
Status: clientUpdateProhibited http://www.icann.org/epp#clientUpdateProhibited
Updated Date: 20-jul-2015
Creation Date: 20-jul-2015
Expiration Date: 20-jul-2016

>>> Last update of whois database: Tue, 21 Jul 2015 19:29:52 GMT <<<

considering the fact that it was just registered yesterday, it's obviously spam

Wow, viral marketers got fucking lazy.

 

[j_k_redtail]

Let me give an actual, in the real world example of how limiting VR can be - the VR application we are making right now for gear VR - we are using a note 4 currently. In stress tests, outside of a VR application, we were able to push about 500k polygons in about 400 draw calls a second at an acceptable frame rate. Trying to stress test inside of VR, however? For one, we had to eliminate environmental shadowing and reflections entirely, because those post effects were too latent. All of our texture sizes needed to be extremely reduced - we wound up using 128 x 128 8-bit textures. We had to constantly micromanage unity's garbage collector just to get the thing to run without running out of memory.

In the end, how much did we have to work with? We had about 20k polygons a second and about 40 draw calls to work with.

Give it ten years. We tolerated so much less for so long and liked it.

 

[UncleSporky]

Give it ten years. We tolerated so much less for so long and liked it.

I still like it. I play my 3DS. And I'm playing Morrowind right now on near vanilla settings, just some shaders added in.

 

[Shai-Tan]

You want the specific code for it or something? Not sure what you're asking. It's a different rendering technique. And both the eye tracking and the rendering changes have to be very fast. Not something we can do right now, but it should eventually be possible.

It will basically be the holy grail for VR and the only way we're gonna be able to run headsets with super high FoV and resolution with modern-ish graphics anytime in the near future.

I read up on it:

research.microsoft.com/pubs/176610/foveated_final15.pdf

They claim to get good results with a 300hz eye tracker (on 120hz video) although I'm wondering what qualifies as good (there is some discussion of pop in, and aliasing on the periphery. I'm assuming aliasing is less of a problem in 3d?):

"If the screen update lags eye movement too much, the transition in the inner layer from blurry to sharp becomes visible after rapid eye movement [Thibos 1989]. Our system updates the inner layer at 120hz to combat this, and all other layers at 60hz. We stagger the update of the middle and outer regions, updating one even frame and the other on odd. This levels out the computation and frame rate."
[...]

"The TX300 eye tracker takes from 1.3ms to 3.3ms to capture a frame. Best case latency can be as low as 6.6ms, which we will round to 7ms for latency calculations. Worst case latency for the TX300 is less than 10ms"

None of this was in an hmd though - however this was some years ago.

edit: slightly more recent video

http://research.microsoft.com/apps/mobile/video.aspx?id=173013

 

[MattGalvatron]

https://youtu.be/67ej6O6SDtQ

I don't know if this completely relates but I went to VRLA and asked people about VR and it's limitations..

 

[Aselith]

https://youtu.be/67ej6O6SDtQ

I don't know if this completely relates but I went to VRLA and asked people about VR and it's limitations..

Hazmat feedback, huh? Not related though no

 

[mugwhump]

I dunno, I enjoyed HL2 with the DK2 quite a bit. Although I'm pretty near-sighted and my glasses couldn't fit.

The thing that worries me most about VR is that I'll need contacts.

 

[BiGBoSSMk23]

That was a very interesting read in the OP.

Good bump.

 

[Mascot]

I dunno, I enjoyed HL2 with the DK2 quite a bit. Although I'm pretty near-sighted and my glasses couldn't fit.

The thing that worries me most about VR is that I'll need contacts.

Is this true for all near-sighted users of VR?

 

[Giever]

I dunno, I enjoyed HL2 with the DK2 quite a bit. Although I'm pretty near-sighted and my glasses couldn't fit.

The thing that worries me most about VR is that I'll need contacts.

Near-sighted means you see well up close, right, but poorly far away? If so, shouldn't using a VR headset be fine without glasses? The screens aren't far away from your eyes.