Super Stardust
Member
Is this problem why cdpr said something about the witcher 3 only being possible because its on console as well as pc?
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The Witness is being heavily pirated. J. Blow says piracy could impact his future.
- Thread starter Raylan
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MassiveNights
Banned
I bet it's something really innocuous, something only they would notice.
I can't say I remember Portal 2 price, but I'm sure I haven't paid $40 for it, as for Talos, no it wasn't priced $40 on release, because it had day one discount and as I said it was even cheaper in my region. So yeah, I still don't get why would you say that it's only two games, there are at least dozens of first person puzzle games and no one of those cost that much.
ephemeral garbage
Member
Putting your completely unjustified assumptions aside, I think you might want to recheck your math, lol
chicko1983
Member
Yeah, I will buy this game when something like this is implemented.
Until then I will just have to miss out.
GinoFelino
Member
Maybe like a faint fart noise every five minutes. Yeah, probably that.
You know, I understand that you are angry, I understand that you want to look at this issue as a black and white thing.
BUT. I did not say "and you can port it to pc for more sales AND AT NO COST".
Nope. I just said that you will get more sales if you port to more platform.
And yes, game sales are not easily predictable. Yeah, we can play this game for a very long time. And you know what? I think we played it before in a different thread, not necessarily you and me but maybe it was you. My point stands. Piracy is something you cannot stop (unless you hurt your regular customers with obstructive DRM) , therefore you really cannot gain anything by lamenting over it. You can factor it into your business plans, obviously. If you are emotional just by thinking about piracy, I would strongly advise you to not plan with android or pc unless (again, back to my original point), you plan on releasing a game with an evergreen support and online-only pricing.
So with Blow's case: he is VERY famous, he does not have to worry about whether he will get to a steam store frontpage or whether humble bundle/bundle makers will approach him. With that being taken into consideration, maybe launching on PS4 first is a better solution.
So yeah. You can be mad at pirates, but that does not help you one bit. It just makes you angry, which is not a good thing to be for a prolonged period of time.
Wow, this takes entitlement to the next level. Pirating it AND then getting money for stream views...jeez.
Doctor Ironic
Member
Probably not. The truth of the matter is that the PC market has always been smaller than the console market. CD Projekt Red wanted to do open world, open world needs a big budget, big budget means you need big revenue to justify it, big revenue means you better release on the two consoles that will get you four times as much revenue combined.
If piracy were actually a factor, they probably wouldn't have such a strong stance on being anti-DRM.
True, but that kind of thing can't really be expressed very well on a Steam page as Ravidrath has mentioned. In The Witness's case the Steam page shows you a pretty world and some line puzzles, and I'm not sure that's enough to convince everyone.
Also as I mentioned before in the UK it's £30, and that's more comparable to what you'd pay for a newish release(from other retailers than Steam, but in The Witness's case you have to buy for Steam's higher prices). Like Rise of the Tomb Raider, or Fallout 4. So, if you're the kind of person who is strapped for cash, I'd imagine going for the triple AAA games which you're likely to know more about is probably the "safer" option.
I think word of mouth will certainly help it out though, as I'm sure it did for Talos Principle. People seem to be really liking it, which is why I ended up buying it. I've yet to put much time into it since it was making me feel a bit off though. :/
Basically what im saying is that 20 feels like the right price point for Portal, even though it is one of the greatest games of all time.
Witness might be one of the greatest too, but its price point feels like it should be lower as well. I only say that having not played it. In retrospect, I would pay a lot for Portal, I'm sure the same might be true for the Witness. But its about perception before buying the game.
Is it though? It was 10 years ago but new titles fall in the £40-£45 range nowadays.
Jacksinthe
Banned
I have UI changes in mine where positioning changes relative to the individual parts. You won't tell just by looking but even a 720p stream I can compare it to live and see.
There's a few changes I have between legit and pirated copies. Lots of ways. FOV, color profile, UI changes, object positioning in game, slight color variations, menu tweaks, etc. Its not difficult.
Of course I take it a step further by randomly reassigning controls after X time has passed and keep doing it with faster frequency to a max of 10 seconds. So after about 20 minutes it becomes unplayable.
That's just 1 seed of mine. I have about 30 more variants I will flood the torrent sites with because I'm "that dev". Chances are you will pirate my version. I have a friend that randomly emails me fun scripts to run and he likes doing it so it doesn't slow me down.
I get more nefarious than randomly reassigning controls. That's fairly tame.
J
Jotamide
Unconfirmed Member
People pirate games, news at 11.
NullPointer
Member
So, like Portal 2? Didn't that launch at $60, or was it $50?
Now this right here is truly an amazing breakdown.
I guess you don't shop around on PC?
I never pay more than £30 for new PC releases.
The publisher prices are always ridiculous, but you just don't buy directly from them.
GMG, Funstock digital, retail pc copies, etc. They all tend to be cheaper.
blastprocessor
The Amiga Brotherhood
Should have delayed the PC release.
hobblygobbly
Member
A popular way (or easy way) is actually overlaying/render a watermark or some pattern that is quite difficult to detect unless you know particular ways to look for it. (not saying Blow did this, it's just a possible way). Even if you may notice it, you'd probably not even think twice about it. I was involved doing this with websites involving security/sensitive information, we would be able to see if someone took screenshots of a webpage etc and we'd also be able to know which user logged in did it.
Hell, people used to do this back with EVE on alliance forums to root out spies posting screen caps of ops and shit. Read this https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/1ftvub/pl_forum_watermarking_unmasked_and_explained/
From the same 10 people, in the "$40 price point" scenario he makes $240 from 6 sales and $135 from 9 sales in "$15 price point", but somehow you think this proves the $15 scenario is better. How?
Also someone that pirates doesn't care that much about pricing. Everything is bigger than 0, so most of them will pirate it. And most important, creators should charge what they think their product deserves considering how much it took to make it. Then the market will speak for itself if it's worthy or not.
If Rockstar wants to charge $120 for GTA VI they are entirely on their right to do it.
Who is Blow suing?
and Portal 2 is somehow only one puzzle game, right?
as I said, I don't remember really how it was priced, but I'm sure I haven't paid $40 for it.
Saying you haven't paid for it doesn't change how much it cost at launch.
Same for Talos.
NullPointer
Member
Its the first the came to mind for me personally. Am more of a console gamer. Myst also comes to mind.
And looking it up Portal 2 launched at $60, but has of course dropped in price since.
Doctor Ironic
Member
Well, why not? They worked on it for almost eight years, and by all accounts, there's an absolute ton of content in there. I'm not a supporter of the "price needs to be relative to game length" argument, but it even succeeds in that metric, apparently being about 60 hours for the price.
The truth of the matter is this: I have not heard a single good reason from people as to why they are upset with The Witness's price, and I'm even still open to changing my mind. Game price is not relative to the size of the team that made it. It's not relative to the genre; a game shouldn't be cheap just because it's a puzzle game. It's got tons of content. The graphics certainly aren't bad, they're possibly even quite good. So what's the reason why people think this game is "too expensive"? Because they can't afford it? Well neither can I, but I don't think that's Blow's fault.
Freeman76
Member
Johnathan Blow: lets do PS4 only, £19.99, sounds reasonable?
Bigwig: Nah we need to sell more....release on PC as well, not just steam either, they take too big a cut....
Jonathan Blow: Fucks sake, I spent 7 years on this, I dont want people pirating this if we release it DRM free...
Bigwig: Compromise....we release multi-plat, double the price, and that will offset the pirated copies...
/End sarcasm
39 pages of people trying to prove a point against each other. This thread dissappeared up its own arse 2 pages in. I read somewhere this was a forum that was quite reasonable and its actually no better than gamefaqs at the end of the day.
I guess so, I got XCOM2 on GMG with a discount code for around £33 recently, I considered that a deal.
New releases though are definitely on average more expensive than £30 though.
I bought Talos at launch, it wasn't priced $40, c'mon, I remember, it wasn't that long ago.
I buy a lot of puzzle games and I'm not sure why would you insist that puzzle game at $40 is no big deal, because it absolutely is! Portal 2 doesn't change that in the slightest.
You would think that if CD Projekt RED's business wouldn't be possible without the console market due to piracy on PC they wouldn't be making such a strong push for no-DRMed games with GOG.
But, hey. Whatever fits your agenda.
Steve Youngblood
Member
From what I know of people that pirate games/movies/music/etc...they wouldn't have purchased the product legitimately anyway, no matter the price. Even if his game was $0.10 they wouldn't have paid it. Not really sure how much of a financial impact piracy has in general. Of course it's still wrong, but the bottomline probably isn't impacted much if the person that stole the game was never going to buy it in the first place.
Doctor Ironic
Member
This thread is certainly beyond the pale, but I think it's more due to uninformed conjecture and wild speculation than due to the mere fact of "people in this thread disagree with each other." For example, I just saw this total loon write a fictional conversation between Jonathon Blow, the leader of the studio, and a "bigwig" who was secretly in charge of the sales instead of Blow?...
I bought Talos for $50 on PS4, and I bought Portal 2 at full price at launch as well.
A puzzle game should be as much as the developer wants to charge for it, and even so I think that for the amount of content you get from The Witness $40 is a perfect price.
NullPointer
Member
And $50 on US PSN. Says its the deluxe edition but I don't see any other editions.
joecanada
Member
True but the real reason xones post is terribly wrong is because Noone makes 100% profit on a product. This is equivalent to saying xbox should just lower their price to 199 as they would sell a ton! There's a price point where you literally make no money on selling shit.
Like if blow makes 20 on every 40 dollar game how much do you think he'd make on a 20 dollar game? Hint: it's probably not even 10
Already Torn
Banned
It's not playing devil's advocate, it's attempting to find out why people are pirating this game so much.
Answer: It's new and got good reviews.
it had day one discount firstly, secondly the price in my region was better and still is - 20€ is not $40.
Well you see, devs can't sell games if we don't buy them, inconvenient, I know.
I'm not trying to convince you not to buy it for a price you are willing to pay, btw. I'm not willing, that's all what I was saying.
Jacksinthe
Banned
Not an option. Blow might have more wiggle room but most devs only get one wave to ride in to shore. Staggered releases for small devs is usually no bueno.
I hate that piracy exists on the scale it does, but one side of me loves the creativity that is used to fuck with pirates. Invincible scorpions and torn batman capes are one thing but I love hearing of more examples.
Also, I hate the idea that I am being branded as a filthy pirate if I dare to suggest a dev to factor piracy into a business plan, and try to not place wasted energy on fighting something that is not really feasible to fight.
But this thread is about Blow's game which had a multimillion dollar budget. Not really the same fight indies are fighting. Not nearly.
X-COM 2 is £27.99 on Funstock Digital and they often do a small discount code.
Rise of the Tomb Raider was £30 on GMG with their 25% off code.
I got AC Syndicate Gold Edition from Nuuvem for £26, sadly they've region locked that site since I ordered that. So Nuuvem is out of the question these days.
Fallout 4 was £30 on Funstock before release with a discount code.
Honestly, it's just a case of taking a bit of time to find the best price.
I think the problem with The Witness is, it's only available on Steam and Humble Bundle. So there's no competition to drive down prices at all.
I hope that most of the people pirating the game are those who doesn't care about the industry as a whole.
I hope they are just people who barely play anything and are curious about a new pirated game.
If you consider yourself a gamer, you should not damage a small developer like this and feel that you are doing the right thing because they are somehow "ripping you off."
If you care for the industry and don't want/can't to pay $40, then wait like me for a few months and pay for it when it's on sale.
I hope they are just people who barely play anything and are curious about a new pirated game.
If you consider yourself a gamer, you should not damage a small developer like this and feel that you are doing the right thing because they are somehow "ripping you off."
If you care for the industry and don't want/can't to pay $40, then wait like me for a few months and pay for it when it's on sale.
Waiting for a hopefully PlayStation 4 physical copy to pick up this game, heard it's awesome.
In regards to all the piracy talk, hasn't there been multiple studies that show pirates spend magnitudes more money on legal content then "normal" users? (I mean it makes sense they are trying and consuming so much media that they will inevitably find more things that they love and in turn, give money to.)
It sucks his game is getting pirated and it should bother him but looking at piracy unemotionally it's pretty clear pirates aren't super villains and generally put their money where their mouth is more often then legitimate customers.
In regards to all the piracy talk, hasn't there been multiple studies that show pirates spend magnitudes more money on legal content then "normal" users? (I mean it makes sense they are trying and consuming so much media that they will inevitably find more things that they love and in turn, give money to.)
It sucks his game is getting pirated and it should bother him but looking at piracy unemotionally it's pretty clear pirates aren't super villains and generally put their money where their mouth is more often then legitimate customers.
X-COM 2 is £27.99 on Funstock Digital and they often do a small discount code.
Rise of the Tomb Raider was £30 on GMG with their 25% off code.
I got AC Syndicate Gold Edition from Nuuvem for £26, sadly they've region locked that site since I ordered that. So Nuuvem is out of the question these days.
Fallout 4 was £30 on Funstock before release with a discount code.
Honestly, it's just a case of taking a bit of time to find the best price.
I think the problem with The Witness is, it's only available on Steam and Humble Bundle. So there's no competition to drive down prices at all.
The Witness is at those prices, so are you waiting for a relative drop? It's $40/£28.
How can they tell? If the pirated version is just the drm-free version someone uploaded, wouldn't it be completely identical to the original legit copy?
It's kind of odd that because its "just a puzzle game" that that somehow means its worth less than any other genre. This comes up a bit with other titles but not nearly as much as with games like this.
The Witness has a similar amount of technical complexity as any other 3D title. It's gameplay is just as, if not more complex due to the sheer amount of detail packed into the game world. Seriously there is not a single inch of that island wasted, if you think you're just standing somewhere looking at the pretty scenery then you're missing a puzzle you just don't know it.
Shiiiiit well I need to give them a look in then.
The Witness has a similar amount of technical complexity as any other 3D title. It's gameplay is just as, if not more complex due to the sheer amount of detail packed into the game world. Seriously there is not a single inch of that island wasted, if you think you're just standing somewhere looking at the pretty scenery then you're missing a puzzle you just don't know it.
X-COM 2 is £27.99 on Funstock Digital and they often do a small discount code.
Rise of the Tomb Raider was £30 on GMG with their 25% off code.
I got AC Syndicate Gold Edition from Nuuvem for £26, sadly they've region locked that site since I ordered that. So Nuuvem is out of the question these days.
Fallout 4 was £30 on Funstock before release with a discount code.
Honestly, it's just a case of taking a bit of time to find the best price.
I think the problem with The Witness is, it's only available on Steam and Humble Bundle. So there's no competition to drive down prices at all.
Shiiiiit well I need to give them a look in then.
The developers are no more entitles to my money then I am to their game. I don't think I'm unique in this but the few new titles I pick up each year are more like a distraction from the games I usually play. Most of the time I will just continue to play Hearthstone, World of Warcraft or replay one of my favourites that I haven't touched in a while.
So basically new games are judged in light of how much I want some variety in my usual activities. In some ways I need nothing but world of warcraft since I barely have time to do everything I want there as it is.
In that light a game with no story, no gameplay beyond puzzles and minimal sound/music is a hard sale and always will be. I'm simply not going to spent 39 euro on it. Considering how popular free to play/moba games and multiplayer games can be I imagine I'm hardly alone.
Have you read any of my posts?
I own it.
I was explaining how for most people it may be a hard sell here because if you've got a limited game budget you may be more inclined to buy a more well known triple AAA game. Partly because you probably already know what they play like so you aren't making a leap of faith, and partly because The Witness can't exatly show what makes it great on a Steam page like triple AAA games can.
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