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[Emedan]

A stolen car isn't a lost sales.

If a lot of people are pirating the game, than there is a lot of sales being lost.

Snow is getting a lot of marketing out of this, but more importantly, every developer and publisher are also hearing about this. Everybody must be checking their DRM options now.

Don't be daft.Hearing some of the arguments in here I wonder if many of you with opinions have ever pirated a game?

I pirated a lot when I was in my early teens, it was just at the start of the torrent era. People who pirate games do so mostly due to lack of funds, when I eventually started making money I would buy the games rather than pirate them, steam giving such a hassle free service is also part of it.

Pirating is almost always a question of service and funds. Pirated media is almost never a lost sale due to this. If you can't provide something people are willing or able to pay for they will find other ways to get it(the huge impact streaming have had on piracy is really telling of this)

None of the things I've ever pirated I would've never bought to begin with. And sure I was not supposed to have access to these things without paying for it but that doesn't mean I was ever willing to pay for this access.

 

[backbreaker65]

This reminds me of a fashion designer, whose name escapes me at the moment. When the FBI was saying because of knock offs, the fashion industry is losing tons of money. Well that fashion designer told the FBI cut the shit, simply because the people buying knock offs can't afford the real item so there is no money loss, so your number is meaningless. The FBI had no reply.

 

[DarkFlame]

"it affects sales to a non-existent level"

I've absolutely no clue how PC piracy can be considered a zero-sum game except as a convenient and invented excuse.

Piracy is platform agnostic. You can't magic box the PC industry and say everyone is like you claim to be: apparently never pirating a game you would otherwise buy, and only buying games you would never pirate.

People like games and want to play them, if they can't get them without paying, they pay, and if they CAN get them without paying, a healthy, but unknown, proportion will do so. People in that proportion should feel shitty about doing what they are doing.

Piracy is platform agnostic indeed,but i'm referring to PC piracy because this is where i have the numbers and can compare them.Piracy on other platforms such as consoles might have other factors that make bigger impact.

Aside from that,my verdict from seeing general sales data on both pirated and non pirated game is this.Many people pirate games,but MOST of them would'nt buy them in the first place...And i'm gonna close this conversation with a funny slum phrase

"If a nigga gonna steal a car,he gonna steal a car,if a nigga gonna buy a car,he ain't gonna buy a car"

-No racism intended btw,just presenting a phrase-

Ahahahaah oh lord.

You don't know how any of this works, do you?

You can't compare game A to game B. You can't compare platform A to platform B as I've already gone over in this thread there can be such wild swings the best effort to gain any sort of metric would be to flip a coin. Plenty to Google for actual statistics and breakdowns.

Also, "logic", isn't a measurable metric. It can't give me statistics on sales like hard data can. If your claim to fame is citing information using logic, when you obviously haven't even bothered researching then I hate to tell you, bud, but your personal jabs at my "education" won't do you any good when I have and still actively research splits on plarforms and games with/without DRM. Actively.

Take your personal jabs elsewhere, guy.

Logic is processing hard data like sales to reach a verdict.And just because i happened to have studied statistics,you defy it's basic laws. When the ratio of sales in non-pirated games are the same to pirated games,the chances of it happening just by luck and being non-depictive of the general consensus is practically so low that you are using this "wild swings" argument just to be on the arguing table.

Have it your way man,if you want to convince yourself your way,it's your choice and i respect that.

I'm outta here.Peace

 

[hawk2025]

No. I'd also like to suggest that those of you in search of puzzle games whose world building and narratives are strong enough to stand on their own instead of being obfuscated by deepness to create the illusion of novelty should try the Myst series, or Antichamber. You may also want to try The Room, if only to witness the kind of brevity that Blow's one-trick-pony-until-the-pony-dies-of-old-age-forty-hours-later games are sorely lacking.

Oh, and don't pirate games. I may have an unnecessarily intense hatred of Blow's games, but I will defend to the death his expectation that his games be sold instead of stolen.

lols all around at The Room's puzzles being on even the same planet as The Witness.

The Room is child's play next to this.

 

[Quote]

No. I'd also like to suggest that those of you in search of puzzle games whose world building and narratives are strong enough to stand on their own instead of being obfuscated by deepness to create the illusion of novelty should try the Myst series, or Antichamber. You may also want to try The Room, if only to witness the kind of brevity that Blow's one-trick-pony-until-the-pony-dies-of-old-age-forty-hours-later games are sorely lacking.

Oh, and don't pirate games. I may have an unnecessarily intense hatred of Blow's games, but I will defend to the death his expectation that his games be sold instead of stolen.

In the sane world, you can enjoy all those things. You are thinking about this way in an unhealthy way. Enjoy your hissy fit though!

 

[Jacksinthe]

Some of the thoughts on piracy in here were certainly eye opening.

Not in a good way.

It doesn't affect them until it does.

Always online.
Heavy DRM.
Microtransactions for everything.
Login accounts for every developer/publisher.

Eventually games will be a service and streamed. Then we start yelling at the ISPs for slow connections. Yelling at the big corps for having control over everything, etc.

Surely piracy will have zero net impact on it. This would all have happened at the same rate regardless. Zero impact on QoS as has been the case, mirite? No legit consumer had ever suffered because of shit DRM tactics implemented to prevent piracy. Not single consumer!

 

[Velcro Fly]

I can't imagine pouring my heart and soul into something and then having people steal it or think I deserve to be paid nothing for it. I'd definitely rage on people on twitter.

 

[enzo_gt]

I mean, piracy pretty obviously sucks, but the article/statements don't really offer much elaboration on how this impacts his ability to make another comparable game. That bit is what's making people create their own interpretations for why that might be, and if you put two and two together it sounds like he feels it threatens the game's return. And while piracy undoubtedly does, it's kind of a lost cause to complain about it's impact, and potentially detrimental in the long run to use DRM.

I see this as an expression of frustration that I imagine many creators would feel if they saw their work stolen, and that's totally fine even if Blow should totally know the industry the works in and has had firsthand experience dealing with this in the past.

 

[blastprocessor]

I'll bite. How would he benefit?

Now I'm not suggesting console owners are pirates but if someone sends you a link and says "hey here's The Witness for free" and you've been waiting years to play it but now don't fancy paying $40, you might download it on your work laptop and play it for free. That's a lost sale on console you might have considered before it was pirated.

 

[GillianSeed79]

I imagine if you self-funded your game with ALL of the profits of your last game AND had toseek adadditional financing to finish it, you'd be terrified as fuck about your game being pirated to hell and back. $40 is fine BTW. If you don't like it, just wait until it's on sale. People act like it's going to be $40 forever.

 

[Jacksinthe]

Piracy is platform agnostic indeed,but i'm referring to PC piracy because this is where i have the numbers and can compare them.Piracy on other platforms such as consoles might have other factors that make bigger impact.

Aside from that,my verdict from seeing general sales data on both pirated and non pirated game is this.Many people pirate games,but MOST of them would'nt buy them in the first place...And i'm gonna close this conversation with a funny slum phrase

"If a nigga gonna steal a car,he gonna steal a car,if a nigga gonna buy a car,he ain't gonna buy a car"

-No racism intended btw,just presenting a phrase-






Logic is processing hard data like sales to reach a verdict.And just because i happened to have studied statistics,you defy it's basic laws. When the ratio of sales in non-pirated games are the same to pirated games,the chances of it happening just by luck and being non-depictive of the general consensus is practically so low that you are using this "wild swings" argument just to be on the arguing table.

Have it your way man,if you want to convince yourself your way,it's your choice and i respect that.

I'm outta here.Peace

Did you not read anything? Honestly curious. I just explained why you were wrong and you still stick to your guns.

Again, this is a topic I am vested in so I know the research, I talk to other devs, I know more about it than you do, honestly. I keep what other devs tell me close to heart and don't repeat it - but its not puppies and rainbows like you think.

 

[~Kinggi~]

Ive found that a lot of people that are familiar with pirating dont even consider a purchase even if they have the money and are looking forward to a game. Work with some people like this. Pirating definitely hurts sales overall especially if the game is easy to pirate. Maybe not some huge number as it is hard to pinpoint statistics, but there is definitely an effect. Some people just dont have moral principals when it comes to such things. Of course you have a lot of closet pirates that will call bullshit and actively fight against devs speaking out against pirates, but thats the unfortunate world we live in.

Hopefully Blow manages to find the sales and is able to do more games.

 

[MrPanic]

This is basically the risk you run into as a pioneer. He's basically the first who dares to ask a high price for a ambitious indie puzzle game, some backfire was to be expected regardless of how good the game is. Sad to hear it's doing that poorly though, but I'm sure sales will pick up eventually when people start realizing it's actually worth its price.

That said though, I can only imagine how much money Blow could've made if he released this game as 3 standalone games for 15 bucks over these eight years he's been working on it. Both the quantity and quality is there to accommodate three great games, but I guess he's simply too ambitious and rather make one masterpiece.

 

[jdmonmou]

Has a game developer ever had to shut down due to piracy? Piracy is a problem, but I'm not convinced that piracy can single-handedly cause someone to go out of business. If the game is good, people will buy it. Cream always rises to the top. If he was so concerned about piracy, why not release on consoles first and then on PC later? I get the frustration with piracy, but he should really stop stressing out about it. The game is getting good reviews so he will get the money he deserves and be able to make another game.

 

[Gattsu25]

It's priced lower than thousands of games much shorter and less fulfilling. If pirates think it's a good game, good enough that they'd want more games like it to be made, the onus is on them to help make that happen.

This is how I look at it. For the content in the game, I consider it underpriced.

It really is a great experience and I would not have felt robbed if it were full priced.

 

[Quote]

This is basically the risk you run into as a pioneer. He's basically the first who dares to ask a high price for a ambitious indie puzzle game, some backfire was to be expected regardless of how good the game is. Sad to hear it's doing that poorly though, but I'm sure sales will pick up eventually when people start realizing it's actually worth its price.

That said though, I can only imagine how much money Blow could've made if he released this game as 3 standalone games for 15 bucks over these eight years he's been working on it. Both the quantity and quality is there to accommodate three great games, but I guess he's simply too ambitious and rather make one masterpiece.

As Blow said, it's too early to tell but it's selling well.

 

[rjc571]

Just watched the Quick Look. Is there really no music in the game? A good soundtrack that matches the lovely atmosphere would have made it a must play for me. But total silence for dozens of hours? I don't know if I could stomach that.

 

[Corto]

Excuse me? Don't tell me that I don't respect something because I'm pointing out the truth that you don't like: There is no COST associated with someone pirating a game. Stealing anything from a store actively is taking money away from the owner of the store. They are not remotely the same thing. That doesn't mean pirating is good, but it means your analogy was bad.

You could argue that a good comprehensive insurance will cover theft costs. There won't be any cost to the store owner associated to that theft. *there will be. I'm just trying to show you that cost of pirating a game is a very complex thing to calculate. A pirated game doesn't represent 1:1 a lost sale. But 100000 pirated games could represent 1000 lost sales and that's lost revenue.

 

[joezombie]

If nothing else, those tweets got him this 100k+ view thread full of people saying the game is good

 

[TheWaxyPaxy]

Has a game developer ever had to shut down due to piracy? Piracy is a problem, but I'm not convinced that piracy can single-handedly cause someone to go out of business. If the game is good, people will buy it. Cream always rises to the top. If he was so concerned about piracy, why not release on consoles first and then on PC later? I get the frustration with piracy, but he should really stop stressing out about it. The game is getting good reviews so he will get the money he deserves and be able to make another game.

I am seeing a trend with the capacity of logic for people who even try to play devil's advocate. You realize you just drew a line in the sand between whatever could be gained from no piracy and going out of business. Just send me $50 a month and don't worry about it because you wont die, after all.

 

[Hey_Blinkin]

I hope it ends up selling well for him in the end, it will be a damn shame if he can't at least cover what he spent on the development. And more power to him for pricing the game what he thinks it's worth rather than feeling the need to give it an "indie price". It sounds like he poured his heart and soul into this project. In my opinion he has the right to charge whatever he sees fit, whether it's a 3 hour game or 50 hour game.

I do find it odd that this has turned into a "Value" thread rather than a "Piracy" thread. As if the people who are willing to pirate the game really needed another reason. They were going to do it regardless, just finding another way to justify the theft.

 

[TheWaxyPaxy]

Just watched the Quick Look. Is there really no music in the game? A good soundtrack that matches the lovely atmosphere would have made it a must play for me. But total silence for dozens of hours? I don't know if I could stomach that.

Then don't buy it.

 

[rjc571]

Then don't buy it.

But it's so pretty though!

 

[Joejoe123]

I've never bought into pirated copy = lost sale. Show the ratio of sales comparing the PC version vs the console version so we can get some vague idea how much piracy is actually causing an affect.

Personally, my price point for this type of game is between $10-$20 depending on reviews. if you don't figure out the real reasons your game isn't selling like you thought it would you can't improve your product in the future.

 

[Dinjooh]

Just watched the Quick Look. Is there really no music in the game? A good soundtrack that matches the lovely atmosphere would have made it a must play for me. But total silence for dozens of hours? I don't know if I could stomach that.

Not once will there be total silence. There's a ton of ambiance in the game. You really ought to give it a try if you can, or find someone playing it while silent.

If I were to complain about the game, it'd definitely not be in the sound department.

 

[johancruijff]

But it's so pretty though!

Dude Just pirate it

 

[TheWaxyPaxy]

But it's so pretty though!

Then buy it.

 

[Nose Master]

Sucks. That said, I can certainly see the appeal. Heavy price tag for "line puzzles? okay." $40 is a bit much to bet, even with glowing reviews. Spoilers: This isn't a game for everyone, and most people pirating wouldn't have bought it and enjoyed it.

 

[delta_reg]

I can't imagine pouring my heart and soul into something and then having people steal it or think I deserve to be paid nothing for it. I'd definitely rage on people on twitter.

Agreed. Piracy is messed up, it's taking someone's art and hard work for nothing. I haven't always been innocent myself but I'll always know piracy isn't right and hearing a game like The Witness suffering from it only reaffirms and strengthens that view for me.

 

[MikeE21286]

He should have charged $60 for it instead of $40.

And released it in stores.

 

[wumster3000]

Some of the thoughts on piracy in here were certainly eye opening.

Not in a good way.

I'm a bit surprised myself.

 

[TheWaxyPaxy]

I've never bought into pirated copy = lost sale. Show the ratio of sales comparing the PC version vs the console version so we can get some vague idea how much piracy is actually causing an affect.

Personally, my price point for this type of game is between $10-$20 depending on reviews. if you don't figure out the real reasons your game isn't selling like you thought it would you can't improve your product in the future.

So I am guessing you'll say "pirating sucks" but if you don't think the games worth the price point what do you do? Not buy it? Cool, awesome. So if you don't think its worth $40 but pirate it, what does that mean? I just still don't comprehend why people come here and say they don't think it is worth it. That has NOTHING to do with what Blow is saying. People that Pirate the game WANT TO PLAY IT but choose to not pay for it illegally. There is a huge difference between not valuing something and consuming something in this way.

It doesn't matter if you "buy into it". If you steal your neighbors cable you want it. You use whatever reason to justify it but if you couldn't tap into your neighbors cable after 3 months of not having access to something you had interest in it may just translate into a sale or a re calibration of your subjective value.

 

[Jacksinthe]

I've never bought into pirated copy = lost sale. Show the ratio of sales comparing the PC version vs the console version so we can get some vague idea how much piracy is actually causing an affect.

Personally, my price point for this type of game is between $10-$20 depending on reviews. if you don't figure out the real reasons your game isn't selling like you thought it would you can't improve your product in the future.

This doesn't work due to the absence of a proper floor by which metrics can be compared to. If there was consistency then I'd say OK but there isn't.

Game A and B are in the same genre and almost exactly the same outside of story and art.

Game A sells bonkers on console and shit on PC.

Game B sells shit on consoles and bonkers on PC.

There is no method by which we can compare the two to glean any information about legal/piracy splits.

This happens a LOT. The swings can be crazy wild even in the subset of consoles, let alone comparing all consoles vs PC. Doesn't mean a single game can't be neck and neck among platforms, it means the divide is too large to make a proper educated curve when the floor is constantly moving.

 

[jdmonmou]

I am seeing a trend with the capacity of logic for people who even try to play devil's advocate. You realize you just drew a line in the sand between whatever could be gained from no piracy and going out of business. Just send me $50 a month and don't worry about it because you wont die, after all.

I'm not advocating piracy, but I'm a little tired of people complaining about it. This has been going on for decades. It's going to happen. I don't have a problem with publishers putting copy protection on their games to stop them from being pirated. Just Cause 3 seemed to have benefited from some well designed DRM. I don't think the game has been cracked yet. I'm just saying he should've done something to stop the game from being cracked easily if he was so concerned about the sales lost because of piracy. Blow chose not to put DRM on the game and release it on PC, so he should've expected this.

 

[Jacksinthe]

I'm not advocating piracy, but I'm a little tired of people complaining about it. This has been going on for decades. It's going to happen. I don't have a problem with publishers putting copy protection on their games to stop them from being pirated. Just Cause 3 seemed to have benefited from some well designed DRM. I don't think the game has been cracked yet. I'm just saying he should've done something to stop the game from being cracked easily if he was so concerned about the sales lost because of piracy. Blow chose not to put DRM on the game and release it on PC, so he should've expected this.

Victim blaming again.

Dear lord. I'm out. This is fucking silly.

 

[Renekton]

Pirates are evil scum, they are why we cannot have nice things.

 

[CrispyBoar]

This is the danger you have with releasing on PC. Its sadly unavoidable.

I agree. And people wonder why certain companies either don't release games on PC at all or give them bad ports after making them for consoles.

 

[FearlessBelgian]

Lol , its a fucking joke... xD

His game are not interesting with 0 pub...

I think this men is mad...

 

[Joejoe123]

If you don't think a game is worth the price than don't buy it, I'm in no way saying it justifies piracy.

I'm talking about the cost of the game as a possible explaination for the sluggish sales and why I haven't purchased the game.

So I am guessing you'll say "pirating sucks" but if you don't think the games worth the price point what do you do? Not buy it? Cool, awesome. So if you don't think its worth $40 but pirate it, what does that mean? I just still don't comprehend why people come here and say they don't think it is worth it. That has NOTHING to do with what Blow is saying. People that Pirate the game WANT TO PLAY IT but choose to not pay for it illegally. There is a huge difference between not valuing something and consuming something in this way.

It doesn't matter if you "buy into it". If you steal your neighbors cable you want it. You use whatever reason to justify it but if you couldn't tap into your neighbors cable after 3 months of not having access to something you had interest in it may just translate into a sale or a re calibration of your subjective value.

 

[Priapus10101]

Considering an unconventional game like The Stanley Parable can sell 1.7 million copies on PC alone, piracy is unlikely to be The Witness' biggest problem. The Witness' price point and the public's misconception of what the game is worth is clearly its biggest problem. This can only be overcome through advertising, increased social exposure (note that game review sites and hardcore forums only form a small subset on PC) and word of mouth.

 

[Rhaknar]

Pirates are evil scum, they are why we cannot have nice things.

Lol calm down mate, lets not get carried away

 

[cyba89]

I don't think Blow believes that every pirated copy is a lost sale. He also never said he's disappointed with the sales (or I missed this).
He's just upset that a passion project where he and his team sunk a lot of heart and money into in the last eight years gets pirated by some people.
That's totally understandable for me.

At the same time he also really enjoys and appreciates how lots of people are enjoying his game and all the positive feedback he gets from fans. But this stuff never makes internet news.

 

[Ayt]

I'm going to support the developer by purchasing a used copy of the game on the PS4 down the road.

 

[Huge Succeeded]

I agree. And people wonder why certain companies either don't release games on PC or give them bad ports after making them for consoles.

meanwhile bad PC ports are absolute unicorns compared to what last gen's console centric dev/pub philosophies would cause, and en masse devs with no prior proclivity toward releasing PC games are porting to PC in droves.

what were you saying?

 

[oatmeal]

21 pages!??!

Holy shit.

I bought it at minute one and enjoy it more than I thought I would.

I think the game will have legs.

 

[KojiKnight]

Considering an unconventional game like The Stanley Parable can sell 1.7 million copies on PC alone, piracy is unlikely to be The Witness' biggest problem. The Witness' price point and the public's misconception of what the game is worth is clearly its biggest problem. This can only be overcome through advertising, increased social exposure (note that game review sites and hardcore forums only form a small subset on PC) and word of mouth.

I'd actually say this may not be too far off point... The Stanley Parable's early exposure via Let's Play demos probably helped a ton... where as, at least the channels I watch regularly, haven't had this game on at all.

 

[Hero_of_the_Day]

Lol , its a fucking joke... xD

His game are not interesting with 0 pub...

I think this men is mad...

I don't understand this string of words you have pieced together.

 

[Joejoe123]

I agree it's not perfect, but it at least gives some basis for making an argument. The reason piracy debates normally go around in circles is the lack of objective data to quantify how much of an affect piracy actually has on sales.

This doesn't work due to the absence of a proper floor by which metrics can be compared to. If there was consistency then I'd say OK but there isn't.

Game A and B are in the same genre and almost exactly the same outside of story and art.

Game A sells bonkers on console and shit on PC.

Game B sells shit on consoles and bonkers on PC.

There is no method by which we can compare the two to glean any information about legal/piracy splits.

This happens a LOT. The swings can be crazy wild even in the subset of consoles, let alone comparing all consoles vs PC. Doesn't mean a single game can't be neck and neck among platforms, it means the divide is too large to make a proper educated curve when the floor is constantly moving.

 

[cyba89]

I'd actually say this may not be too far off point... The Stanley Parable's early exposure via Let's Play demos probably helped a ton... where as, at least the channels I watch regularly, haven't had this game on at all.

The Stanley Parable is a ton more Lets Play-friendly than the Witness. Those are totally different. What's the point in watching a puzzle game.
Also one game is around 1-2 hours while the othe is 30+ hours.

 

[Huge Succeeded]

Witness is a success.

John Blow posts very human tweets about how pirate culture may impact him and his own business.

Posters extrapolate his words into crazier things in order to justify their asinine borderline apologistic responses and standpoints.

40+ pages

Never change