isn't that the purpose of classifying something sexist? that it is bad and needs to be changed and conform to some ideal standard.
Good things can have sexist element and pointing that out isn't an attack on the people that created said thing.
isn't that the purpose of classifying something sexist? that it is bad and needs to be changed and conform to some ideal standard.
Good things can have sexist element and pointing that out isn't an attack on the people that created said thing.
Aside from the cheap remark made by Chinese Room, this is indeed very spot-on.Sexist content can be created unknowingly. In an industry that is dominated by white straight men, their personal interests, likes, and biases will show in that content. In that sort of situation creating diverse content is a conscious effort because it is currently not the default. Therefore sexist content can be created if the people working on it aren't being aware of it.
It's saying sexism is bad, yes, but there are more components to a product than just one facet. It's all a balance. In a game like Hatred, for example, the close-minded and misanthropic themes outweigh the (shit) gameplay and therefore are what that game is mostly derided for. Compare that to The Witcher 3, which many would say is one of 2015's best games - that's what The Witcher 3 is known for. It is in part sexist but there is more to the game than just sexism, and while it is a negative against it there are many positives to the game that allow people to enjoy it despite those aspects.isn't that the purpose of classifying something sexist? that it is bad and needs to be changed and conform to some ideal standard.
In Dragon Age 2 where the companions were playersexual a lot of guys were complaining when they got into into a situation where a male companion hit on them. The bolded in his post was basically word for word what they said.
Not necessarily! It's simply pointing out that there's a different representation between genders on display in a specific work. Sexism can be used as a plot device, or a framing element. It doesn't need to changed, but it does need to be acknowledged.
It's an idea in writing that if you do want to put something socially unacceptable on display you either need to provide a foil to that, or do a good ol' nudge nudge wink wink to your audience so they don't think it's okay in an out-of-context fashion.
The image put out by CDPR's... uh, PR representatives might've been in poor taste
Good things can have sexist element and pointing that out isn't an attack on the people that created said thing.
so make more female gaze (which is good) to counteract male gaze (which is bad).
Gotcha! BALANCE!
equal opportunity cheesecake!
For the love of God, they didn't put out that photo. Gamespot took it from Platige Image's making-of article. CDPR never used it in its marketing for the game.
A sexist element, in particular, is a character treating a woman poorly for being a woman and then the work proceeding to never acknowledge what the character did was morally reprehensible. They never receive a comeuppance, the work never does anything to show that what the character did was wrong.What is a sexist element? Check my post at the end of the last page for a dictionary definition of sexist/sexism.
When you attach said "sexist element" to something simply having nudity, sex, or sex appeal that begins the genuinely dangerous game IMO.
I mean if the world at large wants to and adopts a different meaning for sexism then I guess we'll survive. However many look at the word how the dictionary defines it, which is very poorly, and that is what starts personal psychological difficulties and harm when they see themselves getting accused of it and they stick by the dictionary definition.
Three words for you:To be frank I'm pretty tired of seeing female character designs/concepts like the one in the OP. Would be nice if a major game could be completely devoid of that, with creativity in costume and character design, but obviously that's not going to happen.
For example, it features consequence-free, uncritical and deliberately titillating prostitution that has no gameplay or plot value, and which does almost nothing to examine the status and conditions of medieval prostitutes (which were abysmal).
For the love of God, they didn't put out that photo. Gamespot took it from Platige Image's making-of article. CDPR never used it in its marketing for the game.
No. This is intellectually dishonest and I genuinely hope you don't think this way. By providing a foil I meant you provide an element in-universe that calls the damaging elements as they are. You show a character that actively tries to dismantle the power imbalance, or you use it as a backdrop for change.
You don't just add the female gaze. You use it as a plot element, or at the very least acknowledge that the world is supposed to be sexist and portray how that can be a negative thing.
It's not asking for conformation, it's asking for the writer to be self-aware.
My mistake! Though I'm a little disappointed that's the only point you had to take away from my post. Gotta get those corrections in without engaging anything else, right?
A sexist element, in particular, is a character treating a woman poorly for being a woman and then the work proceeding to never acknowledge what the character did was morally reprehensible. They never receive a comeuppance, the work never does anything to show that what the character did was wrong.
That's a sexist element and it's one that does need to be challenged. Not nudity, sex or sex appeal.
Like so:I guess the desire to correct people who are wrong on the internet is too strong.
They should tell them to jog on, but The Chinese Room can only walk everywhere.
The Chinese Room is a tiny, independent company with two very obvious, public principals (Pinchbeck, Curry). Their "company" account is more or less their personal one. I think at the time they were making Dear Esther, it was just those two and maybe one other person?Politics aside, it seems strange to me that this was posted on a company Twitter account and not a personal one.
Yes, this is true. So the evil character in TW3 is a sexist, but CDPR and The Witcher are not simply sexist. As I said people want to take the blanket and throw it over everything without accepting in the role of narrative/fantasy and entertainment there can be bad and good characters. Either animated, or in acting, and that is just the way it is. Doesn't mean the actors or writers should have to live with sexist claims thrown at them.
The Chinese Room is a tiny, independent company with two very obvious, public principals (Pinchbeck, Curry). Their "company" account is more or less their personal one. I think at the time they were making Dear Esther, it was just those two and maybe one other person?
Also, it's not a particularly controversial or "political" remark, though you wouldn't know it from reading NeoGAF.
The Witcher games are sexist, along with being racist, and overall a terrible place to live. Its part of the world Andrzej Sapkowski wrote.
Curry is no longer with The Chinese Room as far as I remember--and it's due to being treated poorly because she's a woman. The salient takeaway was that her partner also didn't stand up for her, so it's sorta the pot calling the kettle black.
Haha, that was literally the image I was thinking of when postingLike so:
I don't think The Witcher 3 is a sexist game. I think it contains sexist elements and it does work to subvert them on occasion--even going so far as to explain why many of the Sorceresses dress as they do. I do think the point about prostitutes is a good one--and I'd also call that a sexist element, albeit a complicated one. There's something in there about normalizing sex work, but the point is buried too deep and the game doesn't provide enough nuance to make it worth going into.
I can see how people would be a little bothered by the game's lack of Geralt's full-frontal while we get it from female characters. I can see how people would be bothered by Geralt in general because he's literally Male Scruff McSquareJaw that can sleep with whomever he likes and everyone thinks he's charming and there are never any personal consequences for sleeping around. Oh, he's also surrounded by beautiful women and two of them want to fuck his brains out.
In general he's kind of a shitty character, but hey.
What is a sexist element? Check my post at the end of the last page for a dictionary definition of sexist/sexism.
When you attach said "sexist element" to something simply having nudity, sex, or sex appeal that begins the genuinely dangerous game IMO.
I mean if the world at large wants to and adopts a different meaning for sexism then I guess we'll survive. However many look at the word how the dictionary defines it, which is very poorly, and that is what starts personal psychological difficulties and harm when they see themselves getting accused of it and they stick by the dictionary definition.
Basically people want the ability to call something/someone sexist and add the disclaimer "but it's maybe a fairly good sexist element, I just still want to say it's sexist".
This is also important. There's sexist content then sexist framing.Racism and sexism existing in the historicity of the world presented in the games isn't what's being transmitted when the game itself as a text is is sexist. They are two different things. a degree of selfawareness would help to indicate the former but the game is by no means a champion of acknowledging the poor ways it represents the female gender.
Phrased like that it makes much more sense. I definitely see your point but I also think it's as much as a byproduct of just plain shitty writing than any kind of sexist / racist culture. I don't think most novels or TV shows are any better about this stuff just because, like most games, the majority of them aren't really that good. That doesn't excuse anything, mind you, it's just how it's going to be because most writing is inherently not great.
Politics aside, it seems strange to me that this was posted on a company Twitter account and not a personal one.
wait, i'm confused; a similar image is used in the media section on cyperpunk 2077's website and the original trailer, just not the model one--what does this change?
The problem with that scene in DA2 was that Anders would always hit on the player and every single dialogue option apart from one would cause his approval rating to fall dawn significantly. The other would lead to romance. The execution was really bad and Bioware was rightfully criticised for that.
A sexist element? That's saying that one (or more) parts of something are sexist, but not the work as a whole.
There's nothing wrong with nudity and sex in the Witcher games, but rather the problem way they are framed. The way they are shot feels really male gaze-y and there's also never a time when we see Geralt naked from the front. They have no issue pushing breasts and vagina's in or face, but Geralt's dick? That's too far.
In this instance it's not the shot, but rather how little we've seen combined with the shot. It just reeks of those awful old gaming magazine ads where it consisted of a naked/almost naked woman alongside the games they were trying to promote.
Of course these are just my views on it. There's no way to extrapolate what the tweet meant because of how vague it was.
This is also important. There's sexist content then sexist framing.
For example presenting a sexist world in which women are treated poorly is different to presenting a sexist world in which women are consistently objectified by the camera, their design, or animations. Alternatively you could present a game with a very sexist world but frame it from the perspective of women; focusing on the emotions and struggles of women within that world - and the product would not be sexist.
It isn't every games purpose to have some moral life lesson, as I expanded on above it is fantasy. Brothel work is legalized in some countries and debated in others. That is a heavy discussion to get involved in, via law, and public discourse, but we shouldn't try to be learning our real life lessons from a video game.
Again it is fantasy, all the characters, sorcerers, protagonist and brothel workers alike. Not something taught or shown in class as a guide for real life.
To be frank I'm pretty tired of seeing female character designs/concepts like the one in the OP. Would be nice if a major game could be completely devoid of that, with creativity in costume and character design, but obviously that's not going to happen.
The Witcher games are sexist, along with being racist, and overall a terrible place to live. Its part of the world Andrzej Sapkowski wrote.
what's wrong with being sexy
This is also important. There's sexist content then sexist framing.
For example presenting a sexist world in which women are treated poorly is different to presenting a sexist world in which women are consistently objectified by the camera, their design, or animations. Alternatively you could present a game with a very sexist world but frame it from the perspective of women; focusing on the emotions and struggles of women within that world - and the product would not be sexist.
I think this photo was taken out of context. It's clearly from a photoshoot and not a finalized image for marketing. I honestly expect them to recreate the scene from the CGI shot and add in most of those elements.Context. Compare a half-naked woman with CGI cyber hands slapped onto the image in what's clearly a photoshoot to an all-CGI scene of a woman directly and physically augmented with mechanical weaponry, caked in blood and surrounded by bodies in a cyberpunk aesthetic. While the latter still isn't perfect, mind you, the trailer imagery is a lot more clear in its intent, whereas the image on twitter feels a lot more disembodied and just eye candy for the sake of it (relatively speaking; drawing in clicks on social media, that is).
Remember it is a video game, these aren't real women being portrayed... The game doesn't exist to teach a moral lesson about the struggles of women in real life.
I think this photo was taken out of context. It's clearly from a photoshoot and not a finalized image for marketing. I honestly expect them to recreate the scene from the CGI shot and add in most of those elements.
It'd be... silly, I guess, not to.
It is a video game, but no media exists in a vacuum. It is a product of and an influence on culture - particularly popular media. There have been multiple studies (Video Game Characters and the Socialization of Gender Roles: Young Peoples Perceptions Mirror Sexist Media Depictions to name one) done to show that unlike violence in video games, which generally does not encourage nor influence people to commit violent acts in the real world, presentation of women, PoCs, LGBT+ individuals etc can have a much more noticeable effect on perspectives and attitudes adopted by consumers.Remember it is a video game, these aren't real women being portrayed... The game doesn't exist to teach a moral lesson about the struggles of women in real life.
I agree! Somewhat. Context is important--as I've said several times, but even if a game doesn't purposefully have a moral life lesson, everything is political and everything influences people. It's not as direct as, "Geralt did <x> so I can do it too!" (Even if many children say that precise thing, and often go uncorrected.)
But it is important for people to at least acknowledge that sexist elements exist. There's absolutely nothing harmful in that. Asking for the removal of all content that's perceived as sexist? That's terrifying and morally wrong. It can be a good tool and when it's used as such it's a strong narrative element.
The problem is when people don't acknowledge it and instead try to play it off as, "Oh! It's just fantasy!"
Because fantasy has never influenced anything ever.
It is a video game, but no media exists in a vacuum. It is a product of and an influence on culture - particularly popular media. There have been multiple studies (Video Game Characters and the Socialization of Gender Roles: Young People’s Perceptions Mirror Sexist Media Depictions to name one) done to show that unlike violence in video games, which generally does not encourage nor influence people to commit violent acts in the real world, presentation of women, PoCs, LGBT+ individuals etc can have a much more noticeable effect on perspectives and attitudes adopted by consumers.
The devs cannot be held responsible for morally reprehensible people in the real world. We live in a world of fear if we cannot allow normal adults to enjoy adult content without the fear some whack job plays TW3 and thinks they can assault a women.
Sexist elements exist in many stories, but it's key to differentiate from calling a game, movie or book outright sexist/creators sexist and simply saying "bad guy X is a sexist".
They don't have to do that, but whatever they choose in a case like this won't be motivated by real world history.On the other hand, why the studio should make a game where everybody is treated equal? That's practically limiting creating freedom.
And I'm not saying the developers are sexist. I don't think many people are. The game they created has elements that need to be acknowledged--and often are! Still, pointing out that something is sexist while also providing context and criticism is integral, and it's why I can't stand The Chinese Room. Pot shots just put people on the defensive.
The game is not sexist because it isn't as a whole. The game has sexist things in it. That's the key difference.
It's because it's the level of maturity that this topic deserves. It's such a non-issue.Well this post simply highlights your maturity or the lack thereof.
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