No announcement has been made nor is there anything to indicate the NX concept has changed since Iwata announced it.
This is a rumor or a leak. It is not an announcement.
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DF: Nintendo NX Powered By Nvidia Tegra! Initial Spec Analysis
- Thread starter DeathSparks
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This is a rumor or a leak. It is not an announcement.
X1-Maxwell with good API and Vulkan isn't an AMD Jag-APU in terms of performance.
Taking projected price point and gap between Tegra tech and 3DS into account, absolutely. You're going to be getting WiiU+ visuals on the go at the very least. Best case scenario is we have a portable gaming system that plays Xbone/PS4 ports at a lower res.
*EDIT* But to quell the hype a little bit, this is Nintendo here, so I really wouldn't be surprised if they went for an underclocked Tegra 2...
They are still different families of GPU and the jump from r700 to r800 (Evergreen) made big improvements on the newest and hottest (at the time) feature DX11 brought aka tesselation.
I could give you lots of speculation of why this happened but it would amount to nothing because it's just that, speculation.
???
Of course it's 0 by the time they decided to introduce GCN into APUs the 28 process was mature and one would almost say "old" if it wasn't for the fact that we've been stuck almost 4 years with it.
At the time of release it sure wasn't cheaper but now...
What does that mean?
Yeah, as I say that's the absolute best case scenario, but from a handheld perspective that would definitely be an insane jump, and you'd be talking about a system which would be more than capable of PS4 quality graphics at 540p.
If the system were to clock higher when docked, then it depends on if you're sticking with passive cooling or you've got some crazy active cooling scenario. If you're sticking with passive cooling, then you might get to around 800MHz on the GPU, which may just about allow them to bump up the resolution to 720p when outputting to the TV. If you're actively cooling it somehow then there's no reason you couldn't crank the CPU up to 2.5GHz and the GPU to 1.5GHz. That's well into XBO territory when it comes to performance, but as I've discussed before I don't see a practical way to get an active cooling dock to work.
Regarding using 4x SM @400MHz, yes you could probably do it, but by that point you're adding to the cost while getting a very meagre return in terms of increased performance.
Again, though, that's an absolute best case scenario. My most likely scenario would be closer to 8 x A53, 250 Gflop GPU and 3 GB of RAM at 25 GB/s. Which, to be fair, is still a pretty damn powerful handheld.
Why are they bothering with active cooling with the dev kits then?
Neoleo2143
Member
2 possibilities, the system uses an underclocked X2 or the dev kit specs are above the actual system.
Someone else mentioned this earlier but what if where the controller connects you had vents and when you connect to the dock it has fans focused on the vents? Would that work or would it be a risky design?
OR its a custom x1 with active cooling enabled for the base station.
It means it will get a far more performance from its limited hardware than we've seen in previous generations. Geek had a whole post on this yesterday but to have the Tegra hardware without the weight of Android or other dumb overheads, good APIs and Vulkan could make for quite the little console. It will certainly make for one hell of a handheld.
Well the dev kits should definitely be above general performance expectations as they will be running unsigned or unoptimized code early on with young dev tools and API. But its a bit weird to use X1 and active cooling over just having the custom chip inside and have that be clocked up. Either these are some old ass devkits or the custom chip has been slow to produce and mature for kit dispersal.
Geek noted that August would be a new wave of fresh kits, and that things are fluid on nailing down the chip specifics (so basically if anything leaks in August we may learn a lot more or have our current knowledge turned on its head). Leads me to believe this thing is getting fine tuned up to the 11th hour with nVidia and Nintendo's joint work on the chip. Also leads credence to the idea of 16nm custom base, I'd say but that'd be just guessing.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
I'm very surprised people think Nintendo can sell this (or anything) for $300+. Converging portable and home console is not that big of a selling point, the selling point is the (presumably) larger and more diverse library thanks to Nintendo only needing to support one platform rather than two.
After the Wii U's struggles and the 3DS requiring a price drop I can't see them targeting more than $199, unless they just have low expectations for their hardware.
After the Wii U's struggles and the 3DS requiring a price drop I can't see them targeting more than $199, unless they just have low expectations for their hardware.
Apparently Eurogamer has a quote where they say that the CPU is 2*denver +4 A53, while the gpu is unknown. On phone so i can't check right now, but it was quote in the big NX thread in the Last pages
Edit: the quote is talking about the X2 not the NX, dude can't read
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
I'm curious what advantages Denver would offer over A57/A72. I'm don't know much at all about it but from what I've read it's pretty awkward and not great. If they are using Denver, I almost wonder if it's a matter of Nvidia giving them a good deal on licensing.
Huh? From what i've read it's different, but good.
If Nvidia can scale down the power consumption and size then it's a great CPU.
And remember this is a dual core cpu:
This is from two years ago, surely there are advancements in regards to this cpu, otherwise I doubt Nintendo would choose it (power consumption, size etc.)
And now somehow it's the second coming of Christ.... Nintendo fanbase is a rollercoaster of emotions
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
That sounds like it would be a good fit for a console, where it's unique properties could be directly taken advantage of.
Let's be fair here, the rumor previously came from Semiaccurate. Not the most reliable source.
Kingpin Rogers
Member
It's a handheld not a tablet.
The Vita had one.
Is a very capable mobile chip....
You can't see as much detail on a smaller screen anyway, that's the point. When docked the system can clock up to allow for the extra pixels required for 1080p on a TV where more detail is noticeable.
People disbelieved the Nvidia X1 rumour because the X1 is actually still a high end chip and its unlike Nintendo to go for something like that.
cartman414
Member
Only if you're talking about POWER, which is server oriented. Apple ditched PowerPC for scaling poorly in terms of heat and power.
But that is my point. On mobile it is wasteful to use assets designed for 1080p screens. Then there is the fact that I'm not convinced that they can make a scalable architecture that truly maxes out the capabilities of Tegra X2 level gpu (dock or no).
This is talking about easy ports from the other consoles. They'll still need to significantly rework their assets.
A 4 SM chip would be far too large. 16nmFF doesn't have any density improvements over 20nm planar.
ethomaz
Banned
While the 400MHz clock you got right...
1000Mhz = 1.02 TFs
1300Mhz = 1.33 TFs
Assuming 4SMs to Pascal Tegra.
Soldiussnaku
Member
X2 would give it a large and needed boost, and might come in spitting distance of the xbone. Won't match it though. We are not at the stage where mobile SoC can equal or come quite close to the xb1. The size and active cooling give the xb1 and edge in clock speeds and gpu speeds that won't be matched for a few years in mobile tech.
It's still a handheld not a tablet lol.
But seriously, some tablets do have sim card slot. Ipads have.
Crazyorloco
Member
What the heck is going on, so much news on NX. nintendo release a NX direct or something.
I hope Nintendo releases something. I imagine these reporters and leakers probably know more stuff and are sitting on it, but plan to let it out slowly, or maybe in one big go.
they may not have anything to release by time its all done.
Oh and I imagine SOMEONE on this forum right know knows all about NX but is reading these threads and smirking to themselves or laughing at our stupidity.
they may not have anything to release by time its all done.
Oh and I imagine SOMEONE on this forum right know knows all about NX but is reading these threads and smirking to themselves or laughing at our stupidity.
OR is just a X1 with active cooling as it happens in Nvidia Shield.
Mixolydian
Member
It's funny how my own vacillating opinon on the NX affects my level of excitement.
"Ugh, not nearly the home console I wanted in terms of power. Bye Nintendo."
"Holy shit, as a handheld this thing is beastly. Day one!"
"Ugh, not nearly the home console I wanted in terms of power. Bye Nintendo."
"Holy shit, as a handheld this thing is beastly. Day one!"
Ya 20nm is a lemon. The Pixel C with Tegra X1 needed a really large battery.
If 20nm is cheaper for Nintendo, that just means TSMC gave them a big discount to keep the lights on.
Rodney McKay
Member
I doubt it'll be more expensive than $300 and even if it's not cheaper I think the main selling point will probably be their games.
As other threads have mentioned, having all of Nintendo (and the third parties that still support Nintendo) working on one console will mean a much more steady flow of exclusive games coming to the NX compared to what the Wii U or even the 3DS saw.
And with Wii U and 3DS game output being a little slower I've the past year or so, hopefully the system will launch with an impressive lineup.
I think they'll have learned their lesson after the launch of the 3DS at $250 with a mediocre selection of games. It took 3 months before Zelda OoT3D came out, 3 more months after that for Star Fox 643D to come out, and another 2 months before Super Mario 3D Land and Mario Kart 7 came out.
The Wii U's launch was slightly better, having a NSMB game at launch, but it also launched for $300/350 and had a pretty bad drought of games until later the next year.
NX is pretty much guaranteed the new Zelda at launch, and they'd have to try pretty hard to have a worse launch than either the 3DS or the Wii U, so if they manage to at least 2-3 great games at launch with a promise of more to come at a steady rate, I think they could get away with charging up to $300 for it.
leaky leaks
dcx4610
Member
I'm curious if they'll go with extra horsepower in the dock or if they will just program by the games to downclock and run at a lower res and framerate cap while on the handheld?
Everything sounds pretty good but I'm still worried about the detachable controllers. I like the idea but it how is it going to look and and how many buttons could it possibly have?
I can envision tiny controllers with maybe 2-4 buttons max. It's going to make or break the system in my mind. If it looks stupid, it's going to be a big turn off to a lot of the casual market.
Everything sounds pretty good but I'm still worried about the detachable controllers. I like the idea but it how is it going to look and and how many buttons could it possibly have?
I can envision tiny controllers with maybe 2-4 buttons max. It's going to make or break the system in my mind. If it looks stupid, it's going to be a big turn off to a lot of the casual market.
It's easier to work backwards from Pascal's ability then trying to work out what the handheld is and move up from there...
Firstly, I think having active cooling in the handheld is a bad idea, unless it is passively cooled on the go, and only active when plugged into the dock. Actively cooled, the device could potentially hit normal pascal clocks if the cuda core count is low enough (keeping the TDP low)
Looking at the X1, 256 cuda cores @ 500mhz is only 1.5 watts (just the GPU) so if we are talking about pascal, 16nm and X2, 1.1 watts from 500mhz makes sense with power consumption (similar to the drop between GTX 980 and GTX 1060)
Pascal can clock between 1.5 ghz and 1.6 ghz indefinitely. X2 will likely have 1 of 2 configurations, either 256 cuda cores like X1, or 384 cuda cores. This leads to a performance for the docked device running at full speed, somewhere between 768 GFLOPs - 819GFLOPs for 256 cuda cores OR 1152 GFLOPs - 1228 GFLOPs for 384 cuda cores. Targeting 1080p.
If the handheld is 540p, you'd require 1/4th the flops, meaning 1/4th the clock, putting the handheld at 375mhz - 400mhz on the go, this works out to 192 GFLOPs - 205 GFLOPs for 256 cuda cores OR 288 GFLOPs - 307 GFLOPs for 384 cuda cores. Because of the lower clocks, you should be looking at ~1 watt for the GPU here give or take .2 watts depending on config.
Pascal GFLOPs are better than GCN GFLOPs in OpenGL and DX11 when comparing GCN to these numbers, the docked device would be similar in performance to 1 TFLOPs for the docked 768GFLOPs device OR 1.7 TFLOPs for the docked 1228 GFLOPs device. NX using X2 and clocking to pascal's stable clocks, should be on par with XB1 and PS4, anywhere from slightly under XB1 to slightly under PS4. Because the handheld would likely use 540p resolution for the screen, Nintendo shooting for 1228 GFLOPs makes more sense, and remember this is Nvidia we are talking about, Nintendo is just the costumer, they would want to compete with AMD here and get as close to or beat out PS4 if possible (1.7ghz clocks needed)
It should also be noted that if an alternative dock (console) had this same X2 chip, they could bridge them with SLI when connected, and Nintendo could end up with a 2.5 TFLOPs Pascal device, which would be close to a ~3.2 TFLOPs GCN device. This could also be a way for Nintendo to introduce VR at a later date as well...
Firstly, I think having active cooling in the handheld is a bad idea, unless it is passively cooled on the go, and only active when plugged into the dock. Actively cooled, the device could potentially hit normal pascal clocks if the cuda core count is low enough (keeping the TDP low)
Looking at the X1, 256 cuda cores @ 500mhz is only 1.5 watts (just the GPU) so if we are talking about pascal, 16nm and X2, 1.1 watts from 500mhz makes sense with power consumption (similar to the drop between GTX 980 and GTX 1060)
Pascal can clock between 1.5 ghz and 1.6 ghz indefinitely. X2 will likely have 1 of 2 configurations, either 256 cuda cores like X1, or 384 cuda cores. This leads to a performance for the docked device running at full speed, somewhere between 768 GFLOPs - 819GFLOPs for 256 cuda cores OR 1152 GFLOPs - 1228 GFLOPs for 384 cuda cores. Targeting 1080p.
If the handheld is 540p, you'd require 1/4th the flops, meaning 1/4th the clock, putting the handheld at 375mhz - 400mhz on the go, this works out to 192 GFLOPs - 205 GFLOPs for 256 cuda cores OR 288 GFLOPs - 307 GFLOPs for 384 cuda cores. Because of the lower clocks, you should be looking at ~1 watt for the GPU here give or take .2 watts depending on config.
Pascal GFLOPs are better than GCN GFLOPs in OpenGL and DX11 when comparing GCN to these numbers, the docked device would be similar in performance to 1 TFLOPs for the docked 768GFLOPs device OR 1.7 TFLOPs for the docked 1228 GFLOPs device. NX using X2 and clocking to pascal's stable clocks, should be on par with XB1 and PS4, anywhere from slightly under XB1 to slightly under PS4. Because the handheld would likely use 540p resolution for the screen, Nintendo shooting for 1228 GFLOPs makes more sense, and remember this is Nvidia we are talking about, Nintendo is just the costumer, they would want to compete with AMD here and get as close to or beat out PS4 if possible (1.7ghz clocks needed)
It should also be noted that if an alternative dock (console) had this same X2 chip, they could bridge them with SLI when connected, and Nintendo could end up with a 2.5 TFLOPs Pascal device, which would be close to a ~3.2 TFLOPs GCN device. This could also be a way for Nintendo to introduce VR at a later date as well...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XzIZWO1qdg X2 would be nearly identical to PS4 in this footage if they go with a 384 cuda configuration and 1.6 ghz when docked. as I point out in my post on the last page: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=211653741&postcount=997
Crysis 3 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzHRWb6PPzs
Remember this thread here: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1218933 Especially this line: Nvidia team was told to get a console win or "go home." Enter Nintendo, who apparently made off very well in this deal. This to the point that SemiAccurate questions whether this is a "win" at all for Nvidia.
If it's an X1 device for $199 a couple years after Shield TV, well it makes no sense at all that this would be a good deal for Nintendo, Nintendo releases N3DSXL for $199 and I can't see them going below this price for a new console, but a hybrid that matches XB1/PS4 for $199? yeah that is an absolute steal from Nvidia.
The X1 is a power hungry "mobile" chip. If Nintendo goes with the X1 over the newer X2, which is both more powerful and more power efficient, then they are stupid. Nintendo held back on the power of the Wii U and they paid for it. If they hold back on both power and potential battery life on a portable console, they are truly short sighted.
And there is no way Nintendo is making a graphics amplifying dock. The additional parts and interfaces for a set up like that is a horrible price/performance feature.
And there is no way Nintendo is making a graphics amplifying dock. The additional parts and interfaces for a set up like that is a horrible price/performance feature.
dr_rus
Member
They're in fact "better" everywhere. No idea why you specify any APIs.
True, but not by the 40% we see in OpenGL and DX11.
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