disco potato
Member
Waiting a year wouldn't have achieved what you think it would.
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PS4 Pro: Was the lack of a UHD Player Strategic?
- Thread starter ClearData
- Start date
Waiting a year wouldn't have achieved what you think it would.
Dee Dah Dave
Member
It isn't though. Sure UHD BluRay will never be as big as DVD was, and that's all due to the plethora of downloadable content / streaming access available these days.
But, those alternatives pale in comparison to the quality provided on disc, and will for many years to come. Audio / videophiles will always exist, and UHD BluRay is the only option to cater to that market. Along with people who have internet caps etc, and several other reasons.
To not include the latest modern disc drive in a premium console, and made by a consumer electronics giant is preposterous. The response this omission has received proves that. Pre-announcement it was taken as guaranteed by everyone. Now people are defending the decision? Come on.
I very rarely buy or rent movies from live or psn. It's usually $5 to rent when I can just as easily just drive a minute to the closest red box and get uncompressed video and audio. I consider myself an early adopter that both ms and Sony would love to have in their ecosystem. To those people who do but and rent movies digitally, I don't think the existence of a drive is a deterrent in any way. For those people, it's just more likely that they don't have easy access to rentals.
Muppet of a Man
Member
Yep, exactly. I mean, to be fair to the other side of this debate, I occasionally have a laugh at the concept of average "Joe and Jane Six-Pack", who just bought their brand-new 4K TV and decided they didn't need a BR player because DVD is "good enough".Thing is, there's at least some truth in that little parable, even if the idea makes video/audiophiles throw up a little in their mouths. hehe Indeed, even Netflix "4K" looks worse than a 1080p BR. Which comes full circle to the idea that the buying public doesn't always make rational decisions or choose the best option, they often just go with what is most convenient and cheapest. With this idea and cost savings in mind, I totally get why Sony left the UHD out of the Pro v1.0. But, it still feels a bit odd to market it as a premium piece of hardware when it's missing such a no-brainer feature. There's still a large market for high quality optical discs, even if Streaming is steadily taking over. Internet infrastructure problems and bandwidth caps still plague too many millions of consumers to write off physical media entirely.
Likely a business decision derived from their own PSN analytics. How many people are using the bluray player to watch bluray movies? If it's an absurdly low number like 5 or 10 percent of the base, I totally understand why they'd forego a UHD drive to hit the 399 price point. It's all numbers spelling actual user behavior out for them. Same reason they likely abandoned support of backwards compatibility.
yanipheonu
Member
They probably came to the conclusion that the segment of gamers who want increased performance and the segment of people who desire uhd didn't overlap enough to merit its inclusion.
I'll be honest: I barely even knew UHD existed before it was discussed for new consoles.
Nor will I ever buy them, blurays are just fine, and I don't care about 4K movies.
I'm honestly more concerned about 4K games.
I'll be honest: I barely even knew UHD existed before it was discussed for new consoles.
Nor will I ever buy them, blurays are just fine, and I don't care about 4K movies.
I'm honestly more concerned about 4K games.
Clockwork5
Member
I tried to watch a blu ray on my PS4 once. I got a system message saying I didn't have enough storage space.
Bitch Pudding
Member
PS4 Pro final spec meeting:
House: So, what do we do?
Cerny: I give you three options: 2016 release, $399 price tag, 4k Blu-Ray support. Choose any two.
House: So, what do we do?
Cerny: I give you three options: 2016 release, $399 price tag, 4k Blu-Ray support. Choose any two.
Beer Monkey
Member
Maybe they should be super strategic and stop selling Blu-Ray players all together, streaming boxes only.
MasterMenace
Member
I don't know anyone who buys/uses blueray. It's all streaming/Netflix. Works for me.
aggienader
Member
It was simply a bad decision. There's no reason to explain it away and over speculate on it unless you're trying to convince yourself that you want a PS4 Pro.
You're simply not going to get that with this hardware.
If UHD Bluray is something you want then now thanks to Sony the decision is made rather simple: Xbox One S.
You're simply not going to get that with this hardware.
If UHD Bluray is something you want then now thanks to Sony the decision is made rather simple: Xbox One S.
of course, but the picture as a whole is what counts, that is what i obviously ment. Today we do not have the answer, in a few months we will see if the desicions was right wrong or maybe we won't know because there are multiple factors involved when buying a PS4 Pro.
THose videophiles probably won't be playing their movies on a console, but an expensive standalone player.
This is not remotely true. It's still super early, UHD Bluray's been around for six months and the players are expensive. People are just now buying into 4k.
aggienader
Member
#COURAGE
unapersson
Member
By not including it they've created lots of passionate Blu-Ray advocates, that has to be worth something. Even Microsoft will be pushing the format hard now.
Chû Totoro
Member
You do realise that every time you turn an Internet connected ps4 on your usage stats are uploaded to a big spreadsheet for them to decide what's hot and what's not.
I would imagine that they have stats that show home blu ray watching on the ps4 is negligable.
The reason they left it out is simple; UHD Blu-Rays are never going to grow beyond a niche videophile audience, and it's not worth increasing the price over $400 to accommodate that audience. The reason they know this is the same reason they won't admit it, they sell both UHD Blu-Ray players and UHD Blu-Rays themselves, and obviously have the sales data right there in front of them when they're making these decisions.
If you actually search out some data on DVD and Blu-Ray sales it's not that surprising. DVDs still outsell Blu-Rays by over 2 to 1 in the US (source). In the UK, the ratio was over 7 to 1 in 2014 (source). Both DVD and Blu-Ray sales are declining year on year, with an 11% drop in 2014 followed by a 12% drop in 2015 in the US (source). And people still buying DVDs aren't going to jump over to UHD Blu-Ray if they haven't even made the jump to regular Blu-Ray. At best, UHD Blu-Ray can hope to eat away at existing Blu-Ray buyers, but you're talking about a niche within a niche within a rapidly declining market segment.
If you actually search out some data on DVD and Blu-Ray sales it's not that surprising. DVDs still outsell Blu-Rays by over 2 to 1 in the US (source). In the UK, the ratio was over 7 to 1 in 2014 (source). Both DVD and Blu-Ray sales are declining year on year, with an 11% drop in 2014 followed by a 12% drop in 2015 in the US (source). And people still buying DVDs aren't going to jump over to UHD Blu-Ray if they haven't even made the jump to regular Blu-Ray. At best, UHD Blu-Ray can hope to eat away at existing Blu-Ray buyers, but you're talking about a niche within a niche within a rapidly declining market segment.
I personally think it was a smart decision. Developers wont be allowed to deliver games on UHD disks. And the cost of $15 per console that I heard is actually a lot, even though most people who say that it is not a lot.
And everyone in movies and computing is moving away from physical media anyway. Movies are usually one time watch events, and the vast majority of people are very happy to simply download them on Netflix. Streaming movies is where the money is. UHD media is a losing proposition.
And everyone in movies and computing is moving away from physical media anyway. Movies are usually one time watch events, and the vast majority of people are very happy to simply download them on Netflix. Streaming movies is where the money is. UHD media is a losing proposition.
Beer Monkey
Member
Bookmarking all of these comments for when PS5 supports UHD on physical disk.
If it sticks with physical media, then it probably will, but only because BD-XL drives will have come down in cost and they can benefit from the additional capacity in games. It won't be because UHD Blu-Rays have become some massively popular medium.
I am sure Sony will have monitored Bluray usage and Netflix usage in the PS3 and PS4, and using their data, noticed the amount of time using Bluray slowly dwindle, and the amount of time using Netflix increase more and more, over the past 5 years.
BUT the problem with this analysis is that it doesn't take into account the quality of the viewing or the reason for it.
For example, I am a bit of an audio/visual geek and like to have a good picture. I know Netflix is not as good as Bluray but it is 'good enough' for me to lie on the sofa and veg out with some TV shows at the end of a long day.
However, when I really want to watch a film, something I call 'event viewing' happens. I will make an event out of putting a film on. I've got the new Civil War Bluray this week, and on Saturday I will likely draw the curtains, dim the lights, grab some beers and watch it on my Bluray player. For the times I want to watch a film properly, I will go with Bluray.
I might watch Netflix 8 times out of 10 and Bluray 2 times, but I choose Bluray for those 2 times to REALLY enjoy that viewing.
Stripping out a feature (UHD Bluray) is removing a feature that you might have used less than Netflix, but you would have enjoyed a lot more when you did use it.
BUT the problem with this analysis is that it doesn't take into account the quality of the viewing or the reason for it.
For example, I am a bit of an audio/visual geek and like to have a good picture. I know Netflix is not as good as Bluray but it is 'good enough' for me to lie on the sofa and veg out with some TV shows at the end of a long day.
However, when I really want to watch a film, something I call 'event viewing' happens. I will make an event out of putting a film on. I've got the new Civil War Bluray this week, and on Saturday I will likely draw the curtains, dim the lights, grab some beers and watch it on my Bluray player. For the times I want to watch a film properly, I will go with Bluray.
I might watch Netflix 8 times out of 10 and Bluray 2 times, but I choose Bluray for those 2 times to REALLY enjoy that viewing.
Stripping out a feature (UHD Bluray) is removing a feature that you might have used less than Netflix, but you would have enjoyed a lot more when you did use it.
exactly. It is not needed today, it will probably make sense even if it is not very popular in 3 years,since it will be cheaper and probably standard.... just like XBox didn't have bluray/hddvd and xbone has one.
C'mon, wii U doesn't play dvds or blu rays does it? Is it a big deal?
sturgboski
Member
Considering the PS2 was a trojan horse for DVDs and the PS3 for blu-rays, it is baffling why Sony would forgo UHD in the new PS4 (maybe not the slim but at least the Pro). I mean, its a format that Sony as a whole is vested in, much like 4K televisions, with 4K support being a push for the reason WHY you would want a PS4 Pro.
This seems like a poor decision. They can spin it all they want about streaming, etc, but it was shortsighted and cost saving measures that had them travel this road. The fact that Microsoft, who bet on the failing format early last gen, is supporting UHDs and Sony isnt is crazy. Would the UHD drive have broke then bank on the Pro? I assume no if Microsoft can slot it in the Xbox One S.
Recent moves by Sony seem pretty poor and, as a Playstation fan and supporter, pretty disappointing. Ignoring the fact that Sony drops products almost immediately (the Move, the Vita...the last one really hurts), you recently have the PS+ price increase (which I think brings it to over XBL pricing, especially after MS dropped their price down to compete with Sony, not to mention the decline in benefit compared to last generation with regards to free games), you have the Slim which, unlike the Xbox One Slim, offers no real benefits over the current version other than a smaller case, and then the Pro which seems less of a warranted upgrade than the Scorpio (assuming the E3 announcement still holds true) and is lacking a UHD drive to boot. *shrugs* Maybe poor buzz and MS able to put up a better fight will push Sony? They seem to hit all cylinders last generation into the start of this one due to being behind the competition but now seem complacent.
This seems like a poor decision. They can spin it all they want about streaming, etc, but it was shortsighted and cost saving measures that had them travel this road. The fact that Microsoft, who bet on the failing format early last gen, is supporting UHDs and Sony isnt is crazy. Would the UHD drive have broke then bank on the Pro? I assume no if Microsoft can slot it in the Xbox One S.
Recent moves by Sony seem pretty poor and, as a Playstation fan and supporter, pretty disappointing. Ignoring the fact that Sony drops products almost immediately (the Move, the Vita...the last one really hurts), you recently have the PS+ price increase (which I think brings it to over XBL pricing, especially after MS dropped their price down to compete with Sony, not to mention the decline in benefit compared to last generation with regards to free games), you have the Slim which, unlike the Xbox One Slim, offers no real benefits over the current version other than a smaller case, and then the Pro which seems less of a warranted upgrade than the Scorpio (assuming the E3 announcement still holds true) and is lacking a UHD drive to boot. *shrugs* Maybe poor buzz and MS able to put up a better fight will push Sony? They seem to hit all cylinders last generation into the start of this one due to being behind the competition but now seem complacent.
I think the media that will be used in the PS5 is a different question, and it's not related to my comment at all.
Crayon
Member
Pretty incredible when you think about it.
I think this pricepoint (400 dollars) is way more key to it's success than including UHDBR support. By the time that medium is a standard (and that is a big if considering the slow transition between DVD and BR and the uprising of streaming services), the next generation will be there (2-3 years). While I don't like the decision, I think it matters little to the mass consumer at this point in time.
Omnistalgic
Member
So much reason...
different situations, timing, market etc....
How launching a mid gen refresh for the first time is complacent?
Slim offers what slims have always done: smaller form factor, more efficient, cheaper and probably less premium to go for wider audience. It is a cheaper option, no extra features needed.
The pro could have used a UHD BR drive, sure, but it is not necessary for most probably, as the focus is in gaming and being affordable. It is not a premium device. It is an updated specs console to deal with long generation periods. It may fail , it may not, but won't be because it lacks UHD BR support.
this. If price wasn't the issue they could have gone for higher specs and UHDBR support and even more features onle a few cared. It is obvious thay that was not their priority.
Definitely strategic. Sony recognizes the massive decline in physical (movie) media sales, and now Microsoft is stuck supporting it. Sony is relying on streaming for 4K content which is the right move to benefit the consumer cost wise. Another note is that Sony is releasing a "weaker" 4K solution now because their upscaling software is good enough to fill the gap. 4K standard won't be ideal until the next generation. Also more people own 1080p sets than 4K sets so no reason to go all in on the possibility just yet. Now HDR is a completely different beast, but it's nice to know Sony planned ahead to support it without releasing a new SKU a la Xbox One S.
If by better off you mean paying for a movie that you dont really own, getting no tangible product as proof of purchase, and at a price in line with the physical goods... considering with movies you always get the useless digital version as well, how is this the better off option? You also get no compression on the physical version...
Not including a drive is ridiculous.
I imagine Sony had a price in mind for the pro and all decisions were based on reaching that, and with the renewed focus on playstation being primarily for gaming i can see how they came to that decision. Folks are understandably upset but that is only due to Microsoft including it in the Xbox One S - we probably wouldn't even discuss this if it wasn't for microsoft and credit to them for introducing a feature that actually makes their console standout. I can also understand why Microsoft added UHD-BD support, they desperately needed something to differentiate their offerings from Sony and this certainly does that.
sturgboski
Member
Fine, releasing a .5 upgrade I guess is not complacent, but some of the other moves seem to be "we are ahead, lets ride this out" such as increasing PS+ price and not seeming to be interested in cross platform play.
As for the slim, Amazon has the current PS4 500 GB model at $20 more than the PS4 Slim. Fine, you get a 1TB release for $300, but that does not seem much more affordable than the current version, if we are talking about consumers on affordability. Same with efficiency: unless new information has come out or things I have missed, isnt it basically the current hardware crammed in a smaller case? Still draws same amount of power and outputs the same amount of heat, so I am not sure where the efficiency comes in (maybe I am being dense). In comparison, the Xbox One S will cost the same (500 GB Halo Collection bundle vs 500 GB Uncharted 4 bundle) and supports UHD and 4K Streaming (not sure if the PS4 Slim supports 4K Streaming, only see notes related to PS4 Pro). In a like for like, it seems the PS4 Slim offers less than the Xbox One Slim on paper.
Again, for price and such, I doubt we would have something like the Scorpio numbers in a console releasing in 2 months for $400. I get that. However, the big pitch is 4K or UHD for the PS4 Pro as seen by even the PS Blog write up. Why would you then decide to not include an UHD drive? And again, if we are talking cost, as I mentioned above, the $300 Xbox One S has one. I get that there is a spec increase in the PS4 Pro unlike the One S, but is the UHD drive so prohibitive to have Sony miss the $400 price point? I admit I do not know how much of the cost of the players is truly component cost or early adopter costs.
But yes, the lack of UHD is not going to make or break the Pro. It just feels like a lost opportunity when the push of the system is for 4k entertainment.
The thing I find funny is that years back, when MS and Sony both contained movies and entertainment as part of their press conferences, people cried that they should focus on games. And since then, both companies actually did a great job, pretty much phasing out all kind of entertainment talk in lieu of strictly games.
Now, Sony presents a machine focused on delivering high end gaming, with a brief mention of 4K netflix and youtube, and people lose their minds over not being able to watch movies on their gaming console.
Secondly, is the market for 4K blu-rays really that big? I have issues spending more than $10 on a movie, if that, so are those vocal people who are outraged by Sony's omission of a 4K blu ray drive really buying movies for $30-$40. Legitimate question, not trying to sound snarky.
Now, Sony presents a machine focused on delivering high end gaming, with a brief mention of 4K netflix and youtube, and people lose their minds over not being able to watch movies on their gaming console.
Secondly, is the market for 4K blu-rays really that big? I have issues spending more than $10 on a movie, if that, so are those vocal people who are outraged by Sony's omission of a 4K blu ray drive really buying movies for $30-$40. Legitimate question, not trying to sound snarky.
Sony made a good decision and that way they managed to keep the $400 price tag which is better than $500 with the new player. They will sell a lot of ps4p and just before the Scorpion they'll release a new revision with the uhd player and maybe secretly bump the specs to match the Scorpion. In a year this way they can keep the low price
family_guy
Member
Did you write this with a straight face?
Most people here don't even have a 4K TV just to begin with.
This is just material for a feature list war on message boards.
It's obvious that the focus of these consoles is to play games and in the real world interest in UHD BRs is close to zero at the moment with streaming services like Netflix 4K taking over.
But since an unexpected advantage came out of nowhere some people now want to use it as if it was the main selling point while it clearly isn't.
This is why this is totally unsubstantial in the real world and sales data in the coming months will offer the proper reality checks.
With that being said I also think that the omission of the UHD drive in the Pro wasn't worth giving easy marketing ammos to the competition and also its inclusion would have made the Pro a more complete product for the consumers buying it. Even if it's destined to be an other niche or dead format as long as it didn't raise the price to 449$ they should have included it.
Care to elaborate what is wrong with my post? It are only my personal expectations and, in my opinion, partially the potential reasoning of Sony. Yes, I make a few assumptions here but so does everybody since there are many unknown variables for how any given market develops over time.
BennyBlanco
aka IMurRIVAL69
They just announced their first UHD blu ray player last week
Jack The Nipper
Banned
Wanting a few more sales on the xbox side I guess
AquaWateria
Member
You can defend it all you want but in the end it's still bullshit.
Then again I wasn't going to buy the Pro to begin with. Upgrading isn't worth it.
Then again I wasn't going to buy the Pro to begin with. Upgrading isn't worth it.
Norse
Member
Ding ding ding!
Streaming/digital is the answer. They will rent/sell 4k digital movies at inflated prices which is more profitable than letting you buy them on sale at your local store.
What do they charge for 4k movies on the media player that they sell for their 4k tvs? It used to be outrageous
ethomaz
Banned
It is not early in any way... 2017 release for a mid-gen console is suicidal.
Scorpio will launch already dead.
Maybe yes, hear me out here, by doing this Sony is saying to Microsoft "See? you have a chance to punch me, do it and do it hard while you can" efectively making them think they have an advantage, meanwhile they sell a few million of this garbage machines to enthusiasts that like to defend at all costs their decisions.
In a year time they will be in bahamas drinking some margaritas while the Scorpio is releasing only to announce a PS5 more powerfull at the same price and with this they will one two destroying Microsoft once and for all.
Sony is palying chess while Microsoft is playing checkers.
In a year time they will be in bahamas drinking some margaritas while the Scorpio is releasing only to announce a PS5 more powerfull at the same price and with this they will one two destroying Microsoft once and for all.
Sony is palying chess while Microsoft is playing checkers.