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[Wollan]

Going from native 1800->2160p is 1.2xPS4s worth of resources before any other change to settings.

Some people clearly underestimate the juice needed to chase a native 4K target.

 

[SenjutsuSage]

Another valuable piece of information suggesting no Zen, but some will nevertheless find a way to toss it aside. Evidence and logic be damned!

The same insiders have been wrong before. Nothing is decided till Microsoft show what is inside Scorpio.

 

[LelouchZero]

lol at "PS5 in 2019".

More like 2023.

Lawd, 10 years with the PS4 and Xbox One? No way, please! I'm hoping for 2019 or 2020 at the latest.

 

[Averon]

A PS5 release is dependent on when AMD and Global Foundries can start churning out 7nm APUs. Given GF shaky record, who knows if they can actually hit that goal by late 2019.

 

[Dynasty]

Can we all agree while there is a chance of MS using Zen for Scorpio, that chance is like less than 5%? So while there is a chance of them using Zen, there is a much greater chance of them not. In fact I am willing to make a profile picture bet with anyone and will gladly hold that L if I am wrong.

Just to be clear I dont think Scorpio will use Zen.

 

[Electret]

The same insiders have been wrong before. Nothing is decided till Microsoft show what is inside Scorpio.

Which is why my suspicion of no Zen is based on more than that mere singular insider hint, and is weighted towards Lisa Su's comments. It's the concept of "preponderance of the evidence" - all signs clearly suggest no Zen more than they do Zen. In fact, I can't recall any good piece of evidence for the inclusion of Zen; its proponents arguments have consisted more of it merely being possible, or that Scorpio has to support VR.

 

[Kaako]

A PS5 release is dependent on when AMD and Global Foundries can start churning out 7nm APUs. Given GF shaky record, who knows if they can actually hit that goal by late 2019.

Indeed, waiting on Gray Hawk makes sense based on time-frame.

 

[Jrs3000]

Can we all agree while there is a chance of MS using Zen for Scorpio, that chance is like less than 5%? So while there is a chance of them using Zen, there is a much greater chance of them not. In fact I am willing to make a profile picture bet with anyone and will gladly hold that L if I am wrong.

I agree there's a chance it can happen whether there's a current deal that AMD can't or won't speak on or they get ahead of schedule and MS jumps on it. I disagree though with anyone thinking jaguar Is going in. It will be something based off carrizo or bristol ridge(tweaked carrizo) which is still better than the old cats.

 

[Kayant]

yes. if the scorpio cpu is not based on zen architecture, the only other reasonable option is excavator
to use jaguar again in scorpio, or even the puma refresh, would be the biggest Xbox fail and missmanagement ranked close to RROD and Kinect 2.0

That's just extreme if they can't get for their launch timeframe then there isn't much they could do especially if they really want that holiday time window for launch.

 

[wapplew]

Can we all agree while there is a chance of MS using Zen for Scorpio, that chance is like less than 5%? So while there is a chance of them using Zen, there is a much greater chance of them not. In fact I am willing to make a profile picture bet with anyone and will gladly hold that L if I am wrong.

Just to be clear I dont think Scorpio will use Zen.

Scorpio may be simultaneously have Zen CPU or don't have Zen CPU until what inside the box is observed.

 

[Metalingus5150]

Scorpio may be simultaneously have Zen CPU or don't have Zen CPU until what inside the box is observed.

Schrodinger's CPU lol

 

[Astral Dog]

LOL, no. Even though I agree 2019 is too early and firmly believe a holiday 2020 release is the best case scenario, 2023 is too damn late.

Lawd, 10 years with the PS4 and Xbox One? No way, please! I'm hoping for 2019 or 2020 at the latest.

Either wsy the PSPro is here to stay

 

[LostDonkey]

I just can't wait to see what the thing looks like physically.

It's got to be big hasn't it?

6tf is going to generate some heat I'd think. They did great with the cooling on the OG One but it was a huge bitch.

 

[Kaako]

I just can't wait to see what the thing looks like physically.

It's got to be big hasn't it?

6tf is going to generate some heat I'd think. They did great with the cooling on the OG One but it was a huge bitch.

Not necessarily, they can just shrink the internals.

 

[Shpeshal Nick]

I just can't wait to see what the thing looks like physically.

It's got to be big hasn't it?

6tf is going to generate some heat I'd think. They did great with the cooling on the OG One but it was a huge bitch.

I don't think it will be that big overall.

Given the new team behind hardware design, I expect it to be - at worst, as big as the OG Xbox One without the power brick. So the power brick will be internal.

Which I'd be ok with. But I think they could get pretty close to the S in size.

 

[SenjutsuSage]

Which is why my suspicion of no Zen is based on more than that mere singular insider hint, and is weighted towards Lisa Su's comments. It's the concept of "preponderance of the evidence" - all signs clearly suggest no Zen more than they do Zen. In fact, I can't recall any good piece of evidence for the inclusion of Zen; its proponents arguments have consisted more of it merely being possible, or that Scorpio has to support VR.

Well, I was at E3 last year and face to face with a very senior Xbox exec that looked me right in the eyes and said with a smile "Stay tuned, we aren't holding back" specifically about Zen. There was no ambiguity. We were discussing AMD Zen, with others there to witness it.

Maybe they were just keeping the excitement going, but I have to put more weight in that till I see otherwise. Last face to face interaction along similar lines was Phil Spencer at E3 2015 when we talked about Blue Dragon and Lost Odyssey. Phil Spencer promised (he never called it a promise right then and there, but he in so many words promised he would deliver them both) That was a very big promise kept even when others internally thought it shouldn't have been a priority.

 

[anothertech]

Excavator would have architectural differences with the hardware that may cause compatibility issues for a half gen console. At least that's what I was told when I brought it up as a possibility in the Pro. There's probably someone more in the know tech wise that could explain this better.

Well, I was at E3 last year and face to face with a very senior Xbox exec that looked me right in the eyes and said with a smile "Stay tuned, we aren't holding back" specifically about Zen. There was no ambiguity. We were discussing AMD Zen, with others there to witness it.
.

Dam. What was his name? He just opened up and bare all about the Scorpio specs to you when actual devs don't even know what's in it? That's amazing. Do you think he would confirm that on twitter?

Anecdotal evidence from the sage, or black and white statements from Lisa Su... definitely a toss up here.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

I remember when the specs for Xbox one were announced, everyone was calling it dead in the water compared to the PS4 because of .500 Tflops difference.

Funny how things change.

The gap was more of a deal because:

1. Xbox One was more expensive. Less power for a greater price.

2. PS4/XB1 launched at the same time.

We don't know Scorpio's cost, but it'll likely be more expensive and it's releasing a year later. Had the Xbox One (without Kinect) released cheaper than PS4 on launch, we may have seen a radically different gen in terms of US/UK dominance of PS4 in favor of the Xbox One.

Power by itself isn't really the big factor, it's the timing and value of that power.

By and large though, Xbox One isn't dead in the water. Ports perform worse, but they still look good and mutiplats still sell well.

I'd also imagine that the difference between Scorpio and PS4 Pro will actually be LESS than the PS4 and Xbox One due to the effects of diminishing returns on resolution. If Scorpio's power is not going to be optimized for exclusive games and instead goes with higher resolution, it's going to be a lot harder to tell because most people don't sit anywhere near close enough to their 4K TV to adequately resolve all the detail it's capable of. On my PS4 Pro, the games look razor sharp and it's getting very difficult for me to notice the gap between, say 1440P with Uncharted 4 and something running at 1800P like Final Fantasy XV. Hell, if you were to ask me, Uncharted looks like it's running at a higher resolution because it has superior anti aliasing.

I'd say 900p vs. 1080p is much more noticeable.

 

[Chris_Rivera]

Watch it be 6TF.....16bit computation.

 

[rokkerkory]

yes. if the scorpio cpu is not based on zen architecture, the only other reasonable option is excavator
to use jaguar again in scorpio, or even the puma refresh, would be the biggest Xbox fail and missmanagement ranked close to RROD and Kinect 2.0

You make no sense there. Come on.

 

[Ushay]

At this point, I'm not sure what those who think some of us are "downplaying the difference" expects us to say. Everyone in this thread has acknowledged that 1.8 TFlops in absolute terms or 43% in percentages is a significant boost in favour of Scorpio. And like I said earlier, this will contribute to differences such as the Pro rendering at native 1800p while Scorpio renders at native 4K, which roughly makes up for the differences in power. Permit me to be blunt, but I feel those who ride on this downplay bandwagon are salty that the XB1 was the underdog at the beginning of the generation and now want the Pro to be treated the same way. I don't understand, it's not the same situation.


Sounds neat, but will it even be ready for mass production by the end of the year?

It's a pretty substantial difference in both cases (One vs PS4 and Pro VS Scorps). Saying otherwise is downplaying, can't argue with solid numbers. 40% is nothing to scoff at.

Personally I don't really care for numbers or figures, at the end of the day we want games that look great and play smoothly. It's about how the hardware gets utilised, kind of why I'm still a little optimistic about the Switch.

Spoiler

Kind of

 

[Proelite]

Watch it be 6TF.....16bit computation.

onQ is that u?

 

[hanspampel]

That's just extreme if they can't get for their launch timeframe then there isn't much they could do especially if they really want that holiday time window for launch.

Jaguar is 4 years old tech
Puma is 3 years old tech
Excavator is 1 year old tech
Zen is current year tech


xb1 and ps4 launched late in 2013 with jaguar cpu cores, that got released in mid 2013

You make no sense there. Come on.

Yeah did not make sense in 2013, why should it make sense in 2017...

 

[Javin98]

It's a pretty substantial difference in both cases (One vs PS4 and Pro VS Scorps). Saying otherwise is downplaying, can't argue with solid numbers. 40% is nothing to scoff at.

I'm sorry, but who is scoffing or downplaying the 40% difference here? I did, in fact, state the numbers as they are. "Pretty substantial" or "significant" are terms that can vary greatly among people. Doesn't mean it's any sort of downplaying.

 

[LiquidSolid]

Carrizo is the successor to jaguar and last of the apu based on bulldozer architecture before Zen. It has higher ipc and better clocks than jaguar while being better on power.

Carrizo is a Desktop APU, so that's not going to happen, while the mobile variant, Carrizo-L, is based on the Puma+ architecture.

 

[Agnostic Priest]

I think MS should be packing as much into the Scorpio as they possibly can, and they should sell it at a loss. They need their exclusives to sell better, if they had ps4 numbers they would be doing that. The only way to even attempt that is to make the Scorpio a beast and a hell of a deal.

 

[rokkerkory]

Yeah did not make sense in 2013, why should it make sense in 2017...

oh the sensationalism!

Zen is current tech everyone u can buy it now!

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

I think MS should be packing as much into the Scorpio as they possibly can, and they should sell it at a loss. They need their exclusives to sell better, if they had ps4 numbers they would be doing that. The only way to even attempt that is to make the Scorpio a beast and a hell of a deal.

I'd rather they not take a hardware loss and instead funnel that money into AAA new IP development. Sadly, Phil's team seems unwilling to do this and they're just doubling down on core franchises mostly.

Power isn't holding me back from getting Scorpio, content is and I feel Microsoft's output this gen hasn't delivered like the 360.

It's why as much as SWITCH's power is disappointing, the content looks to be there.

 

[Ushay]

I'm sorry, but who is scoffing or downplaying the 40% difference here? I did, in fact, state the numbers as they are. "Pretty substantial" or "significant" are terms that can vary greatly among people. Doesn't mean it's any sort of downplaying.

Not aimed at you my friend, the thread in general. I was agreeing with you?

I'd rather they not take a hardware loss and instead funnel that money into AAA new IP development. Sadly, Phil's team seems unwilling to do this and they're just doubling down on core franchises mostly.

Power isn't holding me back from getting Scorpio, content is and I feel Microsoft's output this gen hasn't delivered like the 360.

It's why as much as SWITCH's power is disappointing, the content looks to be there.

Absolutely, doubling down on the same old IP is not the way to go.

 

[hanspampel]

Carrizo is a Desktop APU, so that's not going to happen, while the mobile variant, Carrizo-L, is based on the Puma+ architecture.

Carrazio apus based on excavator cores are used in laptops, too with either max 15 or 35 watt tpd

oh the sensationalism!

Zen is current tech everyone u can buy it now!

Yes everyone can buy ryzen cpus before xbox project scorpio.

But i get it. You rather just dont want to understand

 

[Javin98]

Not aimed at you my friend, the thread in general. I was agreeing with you?

All right, fair enough, thread gets a bit crazy at times. Apologies.

 

[Chobel]

I'd rather they not take a hardware loss and instead funnel that money into AAA new IP development. Sadly, Phil's team seems unwilling to do this and they're just doubling down on core franchises mostly.

Power isn't holding me back from getting Scorpio, content is and I feel Microsoft's output this gen hasn't delivered like the 360.

It's why as much as SWITCH's power is disappointing, the content looks to be there.

We have no idea about the content that's coming to Switch, and if the history repeats, Switch will have severe lack of 3rd party games, that's alone to makes Xbox (One and Scorpio) much more compelling console.

 

[Hawk269]

I think MS should be packing as much into the Scorpio as they possibly can, and they should sell it at a loss. They need their exclusives to sell better, if they had ps4 numbers they would be doing that. The only way to even attempt that is to make the Scorpio a beast and a hell of a deal.

Beast and Hell of deal. That is the tricky thing. The more and more I go back and read Phil's comments about it being a premium product has me thinking they may be going balls out on this thing at it is going to be $499.99 or more. But you never know man, this industry is a bit crazy and almost anything can happen.

 

[Astral Dog]

We have no idea about the content that's coming to Switch, and if the history repeats, Switch will have severe lack of 3rd party games, that's alone to makes Xbox (One and Scorpio) much more compelling console.

i think he means first party

 

[Liabe Brave]

The only reason I say this is if what Phil stated at E3, High Fidelity VR. No way would a Jaguar/Puma be enough to do high fidelity VR.

The PS4 Pro is capable of high-fidelity VR, and uses Jaguar.

no. already 1/5 of all tvs sold in the us last year were 4k
https://twitter.com/npdtech/status/817165043108298752

this number will likely grow close to 50% this year. the huge 4k hype happened just in late 2016. and 4k still managed 19% share for the full year

So your rose-tinted projection for the incredible future of 4K TVs is that in 2017, most people buying a TV will skip 4K. Remember that people do not replace their giant flatscreen TVs every year, or even every couple years. And you see them buying 1080p TVs in big numbers, even months from now. Given that, what you're actually predicting is that most households will not have 4K for quite a few years.

 

[wapplew]

Everyone benefit from Scorpio having a Zen CPU, PS fans included.
If this half gen bullshit is here to stay, I rather MS raise the bar and make 1080p 60fps a gold standard for half gen upgrade.
So when next half gen upgrade come, Sony have to match the standard and we all win.

 

[hanspampel]

The PS4 Pro is capable of high-fidelity VR, and uses Jaguar.


So your rose-tinted projection for the incredible future of 4K TVs is that in 2017, most people buying a TV will skip 4K. Remember that people do not replace their giant flatscreen TVs every year, or even every couple years. And you see them buying 1080p TVs in big numbers, even months from now. Given that, what you're actually predicting is that most households will not have 4K for quite a few years.

Of course I know that. So do you know, that most people don't upgrade their home console every year either?

But people who are willing to buy new (and expensive) tech will most likely go for 4k tvs and 4k consoles. So the aim for 4k is the perfectly right decision. Xbox one s or ps4 slim is the product for people with 1080p tvs

 

[Crayon]

Of course I know that. So do you know, that most people don't upgrade their home console every year either?

But people who are willing to buy new (and expensive) tech will most likely go for 4k tvs and 4k consoles. So the aim for 4k is the perfectly right decision. Xbox one s or ps4 slim is the product for people with 1080p tvs

That pro is looking mighty tasty for 1080p so far. You trippin.

 

[c0de]

Watch it be 6TF.....16bit computation.

int8!

 

[Ushay]

All right, fair enough, thread gets a bit crazy at times. Apologies.

No need to apologise

Everyone benefit from Scorpio having a Zen CPU, PS fans included.
If this half gen bullshit is here to stay, I rather MS raise the bar and make 1080p 60fps a gold standard for half gen upgrade.
So when next half gen upgrade come, Sony have to match the standard and we all win.

I still think Scorpio will bridge the generation, hence MS waiting for newer technologies first. They will mandate Xbox One backwards development for the next 2-3 year after which allowing exclusive games to be made when the user base is larger.

PS5 will release, (obviously higher perforamcne bracket) but with similar technology. At this point MS is in a position to release Slim Scorp or another updated model with higher specs, while maintaining backwards compat.

They have a hell of a task to message this at E3, that's for sure.

 

[SenjutsuSage]

Excavator would have architectural differences with the hardware that may cause compatibility issues for a half gen console. At least that's what I was told when I brought it up as a possibility in the Pro. There's probably someone more in the know tech wise that could explain this better.



Dam. What was his name? He just opened up and bare all about the Scorpio specs to you when actual devs don't even know what's in it? That's amazing. Do you think he would confirm that on twitter?

Anecdotal evidence from the sage, or black and white statements from Lisa Su... definitely a toss up here.

You don't have to believe me. I know what I heard, and others that attended xbox fanfest at E3 2 years in a row were right there with me to hear the exact same thing. It wasn't even the only person of significance we heard it from. Were they just feeding our excitement with the hype of the announcement still fresh in our minds? Possible, but I tend to doubt that's the case because it wouldn't be the first time one of the individuals in question teased or strongly hinted at awesome features or announcements only for it to end up turning out exactly as implied. So I'll continue holding out hope for Scorpio to have Zen till I see otherwise.

Watch it be 6TF.....16bit computation.

And people say me expecting Scorpio to have a Zen CPU is a dream... lol.

 

[Inuhanyou]

I think MS should be packing as much into the Scorpio as they possibly can, and they should sell it at a loss. They need their exclusives to sell better, if they had ps4 numbers they would be doing that. The only way to even attempt that is to make the Scorpio a beast and a hell of a deal.

The hardware unfortunately isn't the thing that compels people to check out their exclusives. Its their exclusives being interesting enough to check out or appealing to specific audiences.

I don't think your being reasonable, and infact are being unfair to the Xbox. Your expecting it to do PS4 numbers at all when the only reason Sony has those numbers is because of the global presence they have built up for decades, something MS won't have no matter how much power they attempt to put into the machine.

 

[Kayant]

Jaguar is 4 years old tech
Puma is 3 years old tech
Excavator is 1 year old tech
Zen is current year tech


xb1 and ps4 launched late in 2013 with jaguar cpu cores, that got released in mid 2013


Yeah did not make sense in 2013, why should it make sense in 2017...

I mean compared to the actual mismanagement and fails you listen this would hardly be one as it's one thing they don't actually have much control over because at the end of the day AMD will decide when low-power Zen cores are ready.

Jaguar was the only low power core with decent powerformance and in availability in a APU form factor so makes sense they went that way.

 

[SwolBro]

A few things i have been observing in this thread and others that i would appreciate answers to:

1. Why are people concerned with 4k gaming when so many people have yet to purchase a 4k tv?
2. Why not be more concerned with rock solid frame rate at 1080p? Or maybe even a higher frames per second above 60fps over going 4k?
3. In the same respect why all the VR hype? VR has not taken off. Or am i out of the loop here?
4. Why do people harp over the size of the fucking power brick? I've never once had the power brick visible. Not one time has someone come over and seen the power brick. What difference does it actually make for people or is this just an internet/review thing to be bothered by?
5. Why is it that consoles have to be a certain respectable size (as if people are still lugging this crap around to a friends house) but a PC can be fucking huge with lights, watercooling tubes, and fans that sound like the large hydron collider powering up?

Just some stuff i'm confused about

 

[Hoo-doo]

You don't have to believe me. I know what I heard, and others that attended xbox fanfest at E3 2 years in a row were right there with me to hear the exact same thing. It wasn't even the only person of significance we heard it from. Were they just feeding our excitement with the hype of the announcement still fresh in our minds? Possible, but I tend to doubt that's the case because it wouldn't be the first time one of the individuals in question teased or strongly hinted at awesome features or announcements only for it to end up turning out exactly as implied. So I'll continue holding out hope for Scorpio to have Zen till I see otherwise

Got any names to go with these statements? Who was this 'very senior' MS exec you talked to?

 

[Inuhanyou]

A few things i have been observing in this thread and others that i would appreciate answers to:

1. Why are people concerned with 4k gaming when so many people have yet to purchase a 4k tv?
2. Why not be more concerned with rock solid frame rate at 1080p? Or maybe even a higher frames per second above 60fps over going 4k?
3. In the same respect why all the VR hype? VR has not taken off. Or am i out of the loop here?
4. Why do people harp over the size of the fucking power brick? I've never once had the power brick visible. Not one time has someone come over and seen the power brick. What difference does it actually make for people or is this just an internet/review thing to be bothered by?
5. Why is it that consoles have to be a certain respectable size (as if people are still lugging this crap around to a friends house) but a PC can be fucking huge with lights, watercooling tubes, and fans that sound like the large hydron collider powering up?

Just some stuff i'm confused about

1. Have to sell 4K TV's, must reinvigorate the marketplace with a new shiny.

2. FPS is usually dictated by CPU which AMD has lacked in recent years in a viable console form factor. Even if you reduce res, FPS impact might be minimal.

3. Again, must reinvigorate the gaming marketplace in some way, everyone is looking for that next big thing to take off.

4. People care about convenience and form factor.

5. Because good luck selling that kind of thing to a mass market consumer.

 

[MilkyJoe]

This. Which is why you keep confusing yourself.

You can say 'an entire ps4' worth of difference, but it still doesn't make it any more noteworthy than the Xbone to ps4 differences. 40% is 40%, and that's literally going to make little to no noticeable visual differences to some.

In fact, I think I can recall quite a few instances where you claimed not to see a difference in the Xbone versions of 3rd party games Chino.

The difference will be similar, except with the pro fans exclaiming there is no difference, and the Scorpio fans dissecting every df article to show just how wrong they are

Either way, a 'blow it out of the water' situation this isn't. Especially if it's still in jaguar land. Matt was correct.

Now where have we seen this before?

 

[Aceofspades]

Matt also said the Scorpio wouldn't be much more powerful than the PS4Pro...

If it ended up with Jaguar and 6TF GPU, it really isn't that much more powerful than PRO. Similar power difference between PS4 and X1.

 

[Hoo-doo]

Now where have we seen this before?

Yes. That was the joke.

 

[krang]

Why would a device with only 6TF of GPU power need Zen, anyway? It would be completely under-utilised. You're just shifting the bottleneck from the CPU to the GPU.