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Pres Obama now doing $400k speeches for Wall Street

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Socreges

Banned
To be fair, there's not much for liberals to discuss when it comes to Trump tax cuts. Shit is trash pretty much across the board to the sensibilities of this forum.

The identity and policies of the liberal movement is a great discussion to be had within the party. These discussions are particularly important to this demographic. (Not to say Trump's policies aren't.)

It's just the way argunents work. When people disagree, their ideas don't battle each other so much as use each other to grow. Some people don't think Obama should be enraging in this sort of activity. Some people do. The back and forth extends the discussion.

By comparison the topic on Trumps FCC gutting net neutrality is bound to have less posts because this forum is basically unanimous in hating their plan. All anyone can really do is go in there and say "down with this sort of thing". What can you really say when everyone is saying that? Maybe someone should post links on who to talk to and lobby to try and stop their plan before it happens.

High post count is a measure of disagreement. Not necessarily interest. Literally every topic everywhere works like this.

Also this thread is 17 pages long. Fight me
Was going to say the same. Thanks.

Arguing is fine and all but it should be done by now. Focus instead all of our energies into defeating Trump and the Republicans. All this shit stirring, especially from the Bernie camp, is doing nothing but to make his followers, who are a substantial make up of the Democratic party, especially the young ones, disillusioned with the whole thing. Which is the worst thing you can do right now.

Stand up and build up a united front. I don't care if you fake it. That's what the Republicans did and they are winning as a result.
And disregard our concerns? No..?

The fault lines of this debate seem to be drawn similarly to Clinton/Sanders. I'd imagine a lot of people would adamantly defend Obama on this since their Hillary was guilty of the same. Positions are already carved out in a way.
 
Amen. I have no idea why some on the left reserve their strongest words and most fervent arguments for those of their own party. Save it for the people in power today that are actually doing real damage.

Ok so this I don't get. We're on Neogaf shooting off our collective mouth. I sure as shit hope that's not the most fervent argument for anyone, on anything, except maybe Zelda.
 

Gattsu25

Banned
For the last time, this is not true -_-;;

Was that sustained criticism that lasted over a year? Reagan is more remembered for Iran Contra than he is for his Japan talks.

Also, Bill Clinton's speaking engagements only came in focus after Hillary put her name in the election. Again, sustained months long criticism that is mainly used to knock her down a peg.

People think they cute.
 

Aselith

Member
Taking 400,000 for a speech? It is the epitome of greed. Doing so as a former president that campaigned on income inequality, it is unfathomable.

He's being paid by businesses to speak at business functions, no? This is not the same as a CEO paying shit while he makes 10 of millions nor does it mean he's beholden to the businesses he does speeches for.

Now if he stops speaking against these businesses and stops pushing for income equality, we've got a problem.
 

KingK

Member
Amen. I have no idea why some on the left reserve their strongest words and most fervent arguments for those of their own party. Save it for the people in power today that are actually doing real damage.
Maybe it has more to do with the fact that everyone on this forum more or less agrees in condemnation of right-wing politics?

I know I post more in threads like this than threads about the 13th evil thing republicans did this week. I read those threads, and am actually more interested in following that news generally. But I usually don't have any disagreement with the universal condemnation, so I don't usually comment.

I assure you my strongest words and most fervent arguments aren't even had online, it's with conservatives in real life.
 

pigeon

Banned
Then that's on you. I would give Obama the pass since he is or was the leader of the progressive movement, whether you like it or not. Attacking him from the left when I was he is being attacked from the Right just gives thier arguments more ammo. That's one of the ways how Hillary lost.

Wait, come on. This is a really bad argument. It is precisely because Obama is the leader of the progressive movement that it's important for progressives to critique him when he makes choices that undermine that movement.

This is not tribalism. Our responsibility isn't to agree with everything Obama does and attack everybody who disagrees regardless of what it actually is. Obviously I wouldn't say don't vote Democratic because of this. I just want progressive leaders to make progressive decisions and show that the Democrats are the party who cares about ethics rather than just the party that uses ethics as a cudgel to beat the other party.
 

guek

Banned
Was that sustained criticism that lasted over a year? Reagan is more remembered for Iran Contra than he is for his Japan talks.

Also, Bill Clinton's speaking engagements only came in focus after Hillary put her name in the election. Again, sustained months long criticism that is mainly used to knock her down a peg.

People think they cute.

Criticism of Hillary's speeches came about during an election year and this thing with Obama just happened and we're not even sure how much of a precedent it's setting for him or what kind of speech he will even give. Maybe you're jumping the gun here on the racism/sexism card. Check back in a year or so and see how many people are talking about it.

Dems also stopped criticizing ex-presidents from making millions off of paid speeches once Bill started to do it.
 
Was going to say the same. Thanks.

And disregard our concerns? No..?

The fault lines of this debate seem to be drawn similarly to Clinton/Sanders. I'd imagine a lot of people would adamantly defend Obama on this since their Hillary was guilty of the same. Positions are already carved out in a way.
You can deal with your concerns when we win elections. Right now, electoral survival and survival of progressive policies is what we should be focused on.

Wait, come on. This is a really bad argument. It is precisely because Obama is the leader of the progressive movement that it's important for progressives to critique him when he makes choices that undermine that movement.

This is not tribalism. Our responsibility isn't to agree with everything Obama does and attack everybody who disagrees regardless of what it actually is. Obviously I wouldn't say don't vote Democratic because of this. I just want progressive leaders to make progressive decisions and show that the Democrats are the party who cares about ethics rather than just the party that uses ethics as a cudgel to beat the other party.

There is constructive criticism and there is destructive criticism.. What is happening now is the latter.
 

bengraven

Member
Right wingers in my area won't shut the fuck up about this.

Dudes elected a billionaire who's using his office to increase his revenue, but the former president can't get his.
 

pigeon

Banned
Here's well-known socialist crony Josh Barro:

business insider said:
Many of the responses to the argument against this speaking fee have been, frankly, childish. They miss the point of having ethical standards and avoiding conflicts of interest.

"Other people do it, why shouldn't Obama?" is an argument your first-grade teacher would not have taken seriously.

It is not good enough for Democrats simply to exceed the ethical standards of the Trumps or appear less conflicted than the Bushes.

You follow high ethical standards and avoid the appearance of conflicts of interest because, in the long run, it is good for your political movement. It demonstrates to voters that you put their interests first and are not swayed by financial concerns. It reduces the likelihood of embarrassing scandal....

I have been baffled by the extent to which liberal political concern is directed to whether their leaders are being treated fairly, on a personal level. "Is it fair for Obama to have to forego this fee?" is a question that misses the point.

Politics isn't supposed to be about the interests of powerful people like Obama. It's supposed to be about the regular people who support the movements that people like Obama lead. Our leaders are supposed to serve us, and it is appropriate to ask them to make sacrifices in the broader public interest, including sacrifices of income.

Obama is a private citizen and he certainly has a legal right to take speaking fees from powerful interests if he wants. But since he has expressed his intention to continue engaging positively in the discourse in an effort to bolster the ideas he sought to promote in office, I would expect him to care whether his actions serve or undermine the interests of the political movement he used to lead.

http://www.businessinsider.com/obama-wall-street-speaking-fees-2017-4
 
This thread is fucking 33 pages long while the Trump tax cuts is only 4. Fucking liberals. I swear to god.

I'll suffer the most (immigrant, gay, minority) but im pretty close to saying ya'll deserve the next 8 years of Trump because of all this fruitless infighting.
Thread would be a lot longer if people were arguing there was nothing wrong with it and it's not a big deal if trump profits off of his own tax plan. Some are disappointed that this sort of thing will continue to be the norm. People should be able to voice criticism or disappointment in people they like. There are tens of thousands of pages of anti-trump posting over the past year.

Careful, they might accuse you of identity politics or whatever moronic buzzwords. Something something neoliberal corporate shill.

Stop. If you feel like anyone in this thread is doing that then call them out please. Rather than imply anyone who has a dissenting opinion on presidential profiteering tours are somehow dismissive or don't give a shit about other social justice issues.
 

Socreges

Banned
You can deal with your concerns when we win elections. Right now, electoral survival and survival of progressive policies is what we should be focused on.
Practice what you preach then. Stop disagreeing, concede that this is an unfortunate decision by Obama, and let's continue moving forward, united and morally credible!
 

JABEE

Member
Trump got elected because "he tells it like it is" despite his supporters openly admitting that they don't believe everything he says about policy.

It was plain as day for minorities in America what they meant when they referred to Trump telling it like it was and it was because spoke on their wavelength in terms of race and open discrimination.

Stop ignoring the evidence right in front of your eyes and conjuring up some theory without veracity. Studies show that Trump support can be reasonably predicted by racist views. Trump got elected because people wanted someone as racist as them in the whitehouse. He spoke directly to them.

I'm not denying that. I feel it is good to recognize and condemn corruption. I feel these kinds of free-wheeling revolving door ethical issues is a bad look for everyone involved. It is a legitimate criticism that is worthy and right.
 

RDreamer

Member

"Elections have consequences."

We just went from the guy who spent a ridiculous amount of effort trying to be more transparent and had no major scandals to speak of. Instead of rewarding that behavior by continuing to reward Democrats, our electorate voted in someone whose scandals and lack of transparency dwarfs anything we could imagine previously. This stuff literally does not fucking matter to the moderate voters nor does it matter to the right wing voters. The only people it apparently matters to are the hardcore left, and you know what that means? They'll be less likely to actually vote someone in because they want some pure angel.

Should Obama have agreed to this speech? I dunno, maybe not. Should those of us trying to logically and realistically get this country on track spend even one remote iota of a second bitching about this when we have someone else in the White House laughing his way to the bank every week from his private golf course? Nope. We shouldn't.
 

JABEE

Member
Talking to people who disagree with you is an "ethical problem"? You're going to have to unpack this more than just throwing stones.
Taking $400k from a financial firm after being the leader of the free world who controls fiscal and monetary policy is an ethical problem.
 

RDreamer

Member
Taking $400k from a financial firm after being the leader of the free world who controls fiscal and monetary policy is an ethical problem.

The president touches almost every area of world life. Should we ban them from making money doing anything after their presidency? Seriously question. Should we? Because if not, then there are going to be "conflicts" no matter what. You could shit on him for doing a commencement speech for the same reason.
 

Aselith

Member
Taking $400k from a financial firm after being the leader of the free world who controls fiscal and monetary policy is an ethical problem.

Keyword there is AFTER. Unless you can map the money he's making now onto a bias in policy before, it's not an ethical issue.
 

Kin5290

Member
Taking $400k from a financial firm after being the leader of the free world who controls fiscal and monetary policy is an ethical problem.
How is it an ethical problem? Given that this is in the ballpark for what prominent people are paid to speak at similar gatherings, where is the ethical problem in President Obama being paid to speak at a health care conference about health care?
This. I love Obama but holy shit. Come on guys.
Holy shit. Come on, guy. Describe the ethical problem inherent in Obama being paid market value for a service that he is being asked to perform (that is, giving a speech).
 

pigeon

Banned
"Elections have consequences."

We just went from the guy who spent a ridiculous amount of effort trying to be more transparent and had no major scandals to speak of. Instead of rewarding that behavior by continuing to reward Democrats, our electorate voted in someone whose scandals and lack of transparency dwarfs anything we could imagine previously. This stuff literally does not fucking matter to the moderate voters nor does it matter to the right wing voters. The only people it apparently matters to are the hardcore left, and you know what that means? They'll be less likely to actually vote someone in because they want some pure angel.

It matters to me, and I spent the last year defending Hillary. It matters to Josh Barro and he was literally a Republican for half of last year until he reregistered because of his disgust with the party nominating Trump. It matters to Matt Yglesias and literally if you look in the dictionary his face is in there next to "neoliberal shill."

I think you're coming to this with predetermined assumptions about who cares about this and letting those assumptions guide your response rather than the actual arguments and the actual people putting them forward.

Should Obama have agreed to this speech? I dunno, maybe not. Should those of us trying to logically and realistically get this country on track spend even one remote iota of a second bitching about this when we have someone else in the White House laughing his way to the bank every week from his private golf course? Nope. We shouldn't.

I mean, you spent a few minutes writing this response. That was a pretty huge waste of time by this argument!

It turns out humans can do multiple things and think about a variety of different topics. There's no priority queue that prevents us from ever talking about things Obama is doing wrong if we want to also oppose Trump.

In fact, holding our leaders to a high standard is part of opposing Trump effectively.

The president touches almost every area of world life. Should we ban them from making money doing anything after their presidency? Seriously question. Should we? Because if not, then there are going to be "conflicts" no matter what. You could shit on him for doing a commencement speech for the same reason.

I mean, we could, to be honest. He has an enormous pension. Maybe we should just keep future presidents as wards of the state for their devoted service to our country!

I'm kidding, of course, and in fact Obama is allowed to do absolutely anything he wants to in order to make money. That doesn't mean all of his choices are good ideas or ideas that will help his political beliefs succeed.
 
The president touches almost every area of world life. Should we ban them from making money doing anything after their presidency? Seriously question. Should we? Because if not, then there are going to be "conflicts" no matter what. You could shit on him for doing a commencement speech for the same reason.
Probably yeah. We should also probably ban senators and representatives entering the private market.
 
Yeah, that's a pretty good summation of how I feel about this.

I guess that's the thing. I don't think Obama should sacrifice to appease people who think he's either a neoliberal Wall Street sellout or a socialist secret Muslim. If he didn't take this money, the former would still think he made a secret deal with Wall Street to not prosecute them anyway.
 

Opto

Banned
What do you think the topic of the speech will be?

the general public don't give a shit about that. Obama could spend the entire speech telling wall street to suck his nuts dry but the headline will be "OBAMA TAKES WALL STREET CASH"

He's also going to still be politically active and want to shape our country's political scene. So any democrat even remotely connected to Obama's post-presidential initiative could get a target painted on their back. Personally I don't care he's making that kind of bank, but the image of it all is bad news.
 
Taking $400k from a financial firm after being the leader of the free world who controls fiscal and monetary policy is an ethical problem.

You clearly don't know the difference between fiscal and monetary policy since he doesn't have control over both but putting that aside for a second, he doesn't control them now so what is your point exactly? Also, what doesn't a President have control over?
 

JABEE

Member
Keyword there is AFTER. Unless you can map the money he's making now onto a bias in policy before, it's not an ethical issue.
Yes it is. Being soft on financial firms as a means of currying favor is institutional corruption. Someone giving you a job after you are out of office is an ethical issue.

The appearance of impropriety is damning. You hold the President of the United States to a lower standard than I do. I'm not surprised by corruption or questionable ethics from people who rise to public office, but I also don't have to make excuses for it. It's fucked up, but it's the new standard set by modern corporate-friendly Presidents. It is what it is, I just think it is weird how so many people are simply okay with it, or say there isn't even an ethical question.
 

RDreamer

Member
Probably yeah. We should also probably ban senators and representatives entering the private market.

This is the only correct argument I can even see. You can't say just talking to wall street is a conflict of interest. With an American President literally everything is a conflict of interest in some way. You could potentially be scheming for money from almost anything. The problem is that it's logistical insanity. We'd basically have to pay public servants for life. And the more you restrict this stuff the more you disincentivized what might be amazing people from going into public service.


It turns out humans can do multiple things and think about a variety of different topics. There's no priority queue that prevents us from ever talking about things Obama is doing wrong if we want to also oppose Trump.

In fact, holding our leaders to a high standard is part of opposing Trump effectively.

We can do multiple things, sure, but I'd caution against one of those things being "tear down the most popular liberal icon we have while insanity tears apart the White House." I mean unless he goes out and does some truly heinous shit, I just don't see where this gets us. Where does striving for ridiculous perfection get us when it's been demonstrated that does not win us elections?

Good job on taking the right wing talking point bait, people. Is this the Jane Sanders effect?

If there's anything I've learned after this election cycle is that the left in this country eats up the right's talking points like fucking crazy, too.
 

water_wendi

Water is not wet!
No sounds like he's saying we should pay them their full salary for life so that they don't need to work!

Isnt there already something like this where government officials/military cannot enter certain fields or work for companies until a set number of years pass?
 

PBY

Banned
We can do multiple things, sure, but I'd caution against one of those things being "tear down the most popular liberal icon we have while insanity tears apart the White House." I mean unless he goes out and does some truly heinous shit, I just don't see where this gets us. Where does striving for ridiculous perfection get us when it's been demonstrated that does not win us elections?



If there's anything I've learned after this election cycle is that the left in this country eats up the right's talking points like fucking crazy, too.

Why is "Hey, I don't love that Obama is doing this, he should probably stop" = tearing down? Can we never criticize or disagree with our own?
 

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
i havent checked this thread yet, but my guess is there are already a ton of establishment apologist types defending pure pay to play golden parachute corruption as hard as when Hillary was running right?

With people like these on your side, its no wonder money in politics is as prevalent as it is despite a majority of the populace being against such practices. Nobody wants to admit the elephant in the room for fear of 'purity test' accusations and other disingenuous nonsense inside the Washington bubble.

Its even more annoying that Bernie is doing this 'unity tour' with the dems when many of them obviously don't fundamentally agree with his message.

Yes the GOP have to be taken down, but the dems have not yet learned lessons from what destroyed them in the first place and until that happens, its almost not even worth trying to support them.

Fire all the corrupt senators, the Cory Bookers, the Diane Feinstens, the Clintontines like Sheldon Whitehouse who are now tying themselves into pretzels like hypocrites trying act like their corruption doesn't matter because the GOP has worse corruption.

Either you want to fix the fundamental problem or you want to play for a team, be a team player like its a game. Partisan hacks like these know no boundaries.
 

slit

Member
Yes it is. Being soft on financial firms as a means of currying favor is institutional corruption. Someone giving you a job after you are out of office is an ethical issue.

The appearance of impropriety is damning. You hold the President of the United States to a lower standard than I do. I'm not surprised by corruption or questionable ethics from people who rise to public office, but I also don't have to make excuses for it. It's fucked up, but it's the new standard set by modern corporate-friendly Presidents. It is what it is, I just think it is weird how so many people are simply okay with it, or say there isn't even an ethical question.

Oh my god. I think some of you are really have not lived outside your little bubble.
 

pigeon

Banned
We can do multiple things, sure, but I'd caution against one of those things being "tear down the most popular liberal icon we have while insanity tears apart the White House." I mean unless he goes out and does some truly heinous shit, I just don't see where this gets us. Where does striving for ridiculous perfection get us when it's been demonstrated that does not win us elections?

Not sure this is proven. Obama was pretty ethically pure in every respect and he won twice. Hillary Clinton just wasn't, cmon. I loved her and still think she would be a fabulous president but even I believed there were at least two scandals that the Clintons were probably just guilty of based on the evidence.

Hillary's campaign was just about as far from striving for perfection as she could get. Obama was pretty close to striving for perfection. Which of those did better?

I'm not saying that this was the only meaningful factor, obviously, but again, in an election this close everything could matter. But we had lots and lots and lots of evidence last year that Hillary Clinton's unwillingness to clearly demonstrate her ethical purity could matter, and then she lost, so it's worth at least considering that it might have mattered.
 
Why is "Hey, I don't love that Obama is doing this, he should probably stop" = tearing down? Can we never criticize or disagree with our own?

Maybe there's a better place to focus your criticism. I really have no idea at all where it could be but maybe?
 

JABEE

Member
You clearly don't know the difference between fiscal and monetary policy since he doesn't have control over both but putting that aside for a second, he doesn't control them now so what is your point exactly? Also, what doesn't a President have control over?
Yes he/she does. The President appoints the chairman and vice chair of the Federal Reserve. The Fed sets interest rates. The President also has great influence over fiscal policy.
 

PBY

Banned
It would probably just be better to euthanize them. That housing could be used for real people.

This is why people get annoyed. You aren't engaging honestly here. If you're worried about the far left, don't be treat them like idiots.
 
Yes it is. Being soft on financial firms as a means of currying favor is institutional corruption. Someone giving you a job after you are out of office is an ethical issue.

The appearance of impropriety is damning. You hold the President of the United States to a lower standard than I do. I'm not surprised by corruption or questionable ethics from people who rise to public office, but I also don't have to make excuses for it. It's fucked up, but it's the new standard set by modern corporate-friendly Presidents. It is what it is, I just think it is weird how so many people are simply okay with it, or say there isn't even an ethical question.

Expressing your opinion to a company is "being soft" now? Not quite sure I'd call a one hour speech a "job" but I guess you have to shoehorn it somehow.

Yes he/she does. He appoints the chairman and vice chair of the Federal Reserve. The President also has great influence over fiscal policy.

He does not control monetary policy PERIOD. There's no debate, it's literally not his job nor does he have the authority. Also, I didn't realize Trump appointed Janet Yellen, hmmmmmmm.
 
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