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GAF Indie Game Development Thread 2: High Res Work for Low Res Pay

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Well said. People with ideas about games should go visit a doctor! xD

But yeah, I would also be interest what kind of narrative BP is talking about.
That sounds dumb, because then the whole industry would need to see one. All things start with a vision. I never said I expected to just see profit from a vision.

I have no love for programming either, but Construct 2 is very simple I felt. I wanted to make a platformer with it, and I managed it somehow - there's more than enough help on the Scirra forums for getting the basics cobbled together.

Though to be honest, if you want to get into making games, you're going to have to at least learn some programming fundamentals. It doesn't matter if you find it boring, it's the kind of knowledge you should have, especially if you're interested in the narrative side because it'll help you communicate better with whoever has to do the programming in the end.

In a perfect world, no matter what part of game development you want to do, the best thing is to soak up as much knowledge as you can about *all* aspects of game development, even if it's just a very shallow understanding. It really does help in the long run.

It's the same way a movie director, does have a basic understanding of photography, audio design, special effects, even things like advertising and staffing. The good directors, anyway. :p

Beyond that, if you're only interested in narrative, what kind of narrative are you talking about? Just the game's plot? You say you know how to write game design, but that doesn't really say much - anyone can write what they think a game should be, but without an understanding of how a game is made, or what goes into programming one, it's not all that useful. I've got a friend who's written hundreds of game design documents over the last 10 years, and hasn't made a single game. That's because thinking up stuff to make is easy. Making it is harder, because that's where you have to make it real. There's no shortcut to that. Sure, you could get a pet programmer and pet artist and get them to make your dream a reality, but there's no shortage of people with game ideas. But if you can make a basic prototype to demonstrate your ideas and designs, even if the prototype isn't very good, then you're already leagues ahead of people who only have ideas.

I don't mean to sound like I'm coming down on your or anything. If something isn't fun, then yeah, it's not as much fun to do - you're left with a choice then, either power through it and hope something comes of it, or change direction and try to figure out what to do within your abilities. But you never know what you're capable of, until you actually try. I think a lot of people give up too easily, too early.

Sometimes you just gotta do it, if you want it to happen. :p

You edited this and added a lot more to it. Yeah, I know all that which is why I'm here and said I have to force myself to do it. There's a lot more to my journey, but I'm just tired of repeating the same things over and over again on here which is why I didn't go into detail. I was briefly working as a quest designer on a project two years ago and enjoyed that, but there was a lot of bullshit with the guy involved so I dipped. Telltale has like writing positions and stuff I'm interested in and there are some narrative designer jobs out there at some studios, but like I said I can see they're very few.


Yeah, I have been trying for a long, long time. I'll be honest and say my patience has waned from each passing year. I used to stick with an engine for at least 6 months before giving up and trying something else, but I think last year I was using like 3 in the period of two months.

Oh, I forgot to mention I also tried to compose music several times. Finally got down to learning Mixcraft properly (or maybe not), but whenever I try to make a song I'm not satisfied with the sound of any of the instruments. They just don't sound right. I'm not sure if I need a keyboard, fuck with the settings, if it's just me, or it'll start to sound right when I combine it with others.
 
Yeah, I have been trying for a long, long time. I'll be honest and say my patience has waned from each passing year.

I'm going to give you some advice here, but I recommend you don't take it. Rather, look at what I suggest, and keep it in mind for the future, in case one day it sounds like a good idea. I doubt it'll sound like a good idea to you right now, nor do I even know if it IS a good idea, but it's advice born from personal experience.

My advice would be: stop trying to do what you're trying to do right now - be that making a game, or being a narrative writer or game designer. Pretend it's something you were never interested in the first place, and instead, try doing something far, far out of your comfort zone, far removed from your interests. Go ahead and explore any and every other things, be that pottery, maths, painting landscapes, walking dogs, baking cakes, mowing lawns, helping old people with computers, the list is infinite.

There's two reasons for this suggestion. First: one can get too narrowly focused on one's goals, and that leaves us in a bad position to approach things from. It can stifle creativity and passion. The second reason, is taking a break and perusing other interests can often lead to new insights, either for the thing we really want to do, or we might discover something we're more interested in.

There's nothing wrong with taken a conceptual sabbatical and just putting some distance between things, so that one has time to reflect, change, and approach things with a new mindset. This is especially useful when you feel ground down, or impatient.

I don't know if it'll help in your specific case, but hey, it's free advice. Doesn't hurt to consider it.
 

DocSeuss

Member
My unreal lighting looks weird right now; anything facing away from the sun (directional light) is like... completely black. This is an outdoor scene; it shouldn't look this black. What can I do to improve the contrast between light and dark?
 
My unreal lighting looks weird right now; anything facing away from the sun (directional light) is like... completely black. This is an outdoor scene; it shouldn't look this black. What can I do to improve the contrast between light and dark?

pics? Sounds like you need to bake and/or don't have a skylight.
 
I also wanted to say that I have gotten an email response from someone who's interested and is asking what do they need of me. I'm wondering if it's just jitters from being used to things not going my way, but I feel scared to respond. I already told him I'm working with Pico-8 been struggling on my own and wanted to go over some of the functions and scripts of the engine so we can learn, but I was just unsure of what to say after he replied.
 

MimiMe

Member
but you were kind of right. It's not ideas that are needed, it is ideas that are fun, sellable and finishable in a certain timeframe by a certain amount of people.

Plus, if you're able to check all points but can't contribute to daily business your idea is not worth the hassle again.

@Blasian Persuasion
There is actualy a point in finishing things. It is not about making them perfect or even good. It is about finishing. Accepting that you won't (maybe can't) make it the way you planned and realizing how much effort and zero fun the last % are. That will change your perspective on ideas in the end.
Jumping from one engine to another is just avoiding core issues instead of solving them.

I like what this guy sais about Woody Allen. Too many think that they're a kind of Tarantino only creating masterpieces.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5r5VIlMhftM
 

SeanNoonan

Member
And voted!
Its a pity that no matter how good your runner is (and its freaking good) you are going to get a lot of downvotes becuase its a runner coming from mobile (it happened to our first game).
But hope you can get it fast into greenlight, good luck!
Thank you! And thanks to everyone else who has voted so far. I agree, it will be an uphill struggle getting this greenlit, for the reasons you mentioned and more; there's a mobile port already released, it's low-fi pixel art, it's a runner, and I've had little to no marketing campaign. Still, it's a nice achievement to have gotten this far, and it hasn't put me off making another game :D

Cheeky link again ;)
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=877705287
 

LordRaptor

Member
Thank you! And thanks to everyone else who has voted so far. I agree, it will be an uphill struggle getting this greenlit, for the reasons you mentioned and more

AFAIK, Greenlight doesn't serve the purpose of stopping games being released, it is just a 'holding pattern' to ensure its not stolen code or malware - I don't think you should be too concerned about actually getting released, but your concerns might well end up being reflected in trollish user reviews
 

JeffG

Member
Hi, I'm in the prototype stages for a game I'm doing on my own. It's my first game and I'd be interested in knowing what resources (free if possible) I have for sound fx. I'd be interested both in sound pools and easy enough programs to create/edit them. Thanks.

Freesound.org
 

missile

Member
Huh? I wrote that post to expand on how we do usability testing for those that might be interested so they can improve their own approach where they see the opportunity, not to slight your post in any way. ...
That's how I got it. Don't know what JulianImp was smoking that day. xD


... Looking good missile!
Thx mate!


but you were kind of right. It's not ideas that are needed, it is ideas that are fun, sellable and finishable in a certain timeframe by a certain amount of people.

Plus, if you're able to check all points but can't contribute to daily business your idea is not worth the hassle again. ...
Thx man! That's exactly what was behind that joke of mine. Doing gamedev
for longer one will realize that ideas aren't any problem at all. So I was
making that joke because ideas won't help anyone in gamedev. I've never seen
anyone in gamedev running around wanting to make games but has no ideas. I
would even argue that there are way too many ideas and way to many ways to
get distracted from what is really needed to actually make a game.

...
@Blasian Persuasion
There is actualy a point in finishing things. It is not about making them perfect or even good. It is about finishing. Accepting that you won't (maybe can't) make it the way you planned and realizing how much effort and zero fun the last % are. That will change your perspective on ideas in the end.
Jumping from one engine to another is just avoiding core issues instead of solving them. ...
Should be put in the OT.
 

JeffG

Member
@Blasian Persuasion
There is actualy a point in finishing things. It is not about making them perfect or even good. It is about finishing. Accepting that you won't (maybe can't) make it the way you planned and realizing how much effort and zero fun the last % are. That will change your perspective on ideas in the end.
Jumping from one engine to another is just avoiding core issues instead of solving them.
Just to add an agreement on this

Finishing is the toughest thing to do

The first 90% of a project is easy. The last 10% is hard

The only thing you can really control in this regard is the scope of your project.

If your scope is constantly shifting, nothing will ever get done. Changing an engine is an artificial scope change and is easily avoided.


Engines tend to be suited for certain styles of game and levels of technical ability of the developer

So pick one that is the best fit and go from there.

Now...if it is a hobby. Then do whatever floats your boat
 

JulianImp

Member
but you were kind of right. It's not ideas that are needed, it is ideas that are fun, sellable and finishable in a certain timeframe by a certain amount of people.

Plus, if you're able to check all points but can't contribute to daily business your idea is not worth the hassle again.

@Blasian Persuasion
There is actualy a point in finishing things. It is not about making them perfect or even good. It is about finishing. Accepting that you won't (maybe can't) make it the way you planned and realizing how much effort and zero fun the last % are. That will change your perspective on ideas in the end.
Jumping from one engine to another is just avoiding core issues instead of solving them.

I like what this guy sais about Woody Allen. Too many think that they're a kind of Tarantino only creating masterpieces.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5r5VIlMhftM

Yeah, tackling game development as a hobby and as a job are completely different things. One thing we learned on the 6-person indie team I joined lasat year is that while making our game the way we did was a learning experience, we should've stopped making changes to it way, way earlier than we did (which was right up until the game was published on Steam, seriously).

While I find implementing new features infinitely more exciting than polishing existing ones, I've finally gotten used to the lull that is late-development. Of course I'd love to keep trying new things out late in production, but it makes a lot more sense to just stick to bug-fixing and polishing what you can and finally get the game ready to ship. I do find tweaking minute things to be pretty boring (ie: compare implementing enemy AI and seeing it work in-game for the first time to fixing a corner-case where the pathfinding would screw up in very specific situations), but it's better to get those things done with so you can ship the game and go back to creating that new and exciting stuff on your next project instead.
 

missile

Member
... Now...if it is a hobby. Then do whatever floats your boat
What I've found out is that talking with people about gamedev is way different
if you do it just as a hobby vs. try to make a living out of it. From my
experience the hobby dude basically also wants to make a living out of it but
does not believe (s)he could. Thing is, you eventually come to a point in a,
for example, technical discussion where you (as the one who wants to make a
living out of it) try to tell the other one how to fix a certain problem or
what's needed to make it work to just see how (s)he is bailing out saying the
game is just a hobby, but with you seeing that even that hobby never leads to
anything due to that attitude.

I mean, there are people doing gamedev as a hobby for real, no problem. But
I'm talking about those sitting on the fence climbing down whenever it becomes
a bit more difficult. Drawing from this experience, today, I refrain from
talking to people who do gamedev just as a "hobby", for they will never get
anything done and there is nothing coming back with my time totally wasted.

For the sake of completeness; It's fine to make games as a hobby. That's not
the point. It's about those doing it as a hobby in disguise, i.e. sitting on
the fence not wanting to take any risk but want to have all the benefits.
Anyone?
 

fresquito

Member
Freesound.org
Thanks!

On the subject of hobby vs work, I'm probably not the best to speak my mind, since I started doing my first game just recently, but I honestly think it has more to do with a state of mind than anything else. Just like there're people that like drawing, playing guitar or writting just for fun or for venting or for whatever reason, there're people that can make games because the same reasons. That's my case.

I'm not a young fellow that is looking for something to do with his life, evaluating his talents and trying to accomodate them to the trade world. I know my talents, and I have my own working ethos. I like doing things the best I can within an acceptable time frame because otherwise I'll get bored, not because shipping clocks.

I'm not stupid either. If I finish my game (big if because I'm here for the fun and enjoying the ride, rather than reaching a certain goal) and I see it is marketable, I will look into that. But doing games is not going to save me from anything. My life will go on, doing or not doing videogames. Now, doing them is so much fun :)
 

MimiMe

Member
For the sake of completeness; It's fine to make games as a hobby. That's not
the point. It's about those doing it as a hobby in disguise, i.e. sitting on
the fence not wanting to take any risk but want to have all the benefits.
Anyone?

imho it is rather a persons attitude than the fact that he is doing it as an hobby. We're living in a world were everyone is in for quick success (games got stupidly easy and have annoying tuts for that reason) and thus many leave things behind as soon as it gets tough. Prototyping and testing is easy and quickly done "Hey, look what I have build in a week". Thus someone doing it as a hobby doesn't need/ want to tackle problems or do that annoying gamedev stuff like redoing menus, bug fixing and testing.

The only reason why I don't like talking to them is because they make everything look so easy. "Why don't you just add XY. That just takes an hour. You are a lazy dev."
Yeah right, it may only take a few hours to implement but I have to check everything I made so far to make sure it is not affecting other things and destroying all the balance. That can eat up a few weeks of my schedule.
"Oh you re full of sh*t"... no I am not, you just never did that last %


BUT this is a thought that gets me way more thinking of hobbyists:
Many out there don't have that attidute and show their great talent off all the time. They actualy think of a sole problem and start to show solutions.
In that case I rather ask myself "how the hell aren't you using that skill to make a living from it. I'd kill for such talent" ^^

Keep in mind: Whatever I say, I know nothing and got no skill. But hey, I am working on it
 

missile

Member
WZaxSnY.gif


Here is one of my new display panels (lower left in the animation) I talked
about last time that I want to create to give the player more orientation and
sight of the surrounding while sitting in that tight cockpit. Well, the scene
isn't ideal to show off the full breath of that display, but I hope you get the
idea.

This is just a prototype and currently very rudimentär display for the craft
(has a few bugs still) able to show 180 degrees of its back. I want to use it
also for gamplay such that you can see the rockets coming from behind or see
your wingman or opponent riding right next of you. :D

Yeah, I'm going to program more of them to cover other parts of the cockpit.
Computing those are a bit demanding (I had to lower the resolution for now),
but I will improve on the performance further down.
 

DemonNite

Member

cool stuff :)

What resolution do you think it will be in that display? will it be clear enough to see details such as rockets?

You know what would be awesome? It makes me think about older flight-sim games where certain missiles had on board cameras and you could see its POV on the display once launched :)
 

embalm

Member
What I've found out is that talking with people about gamedev is way different
if you do it just as a hobby vs. try to make a living out of it. From my
experience the hobby dude basically also wants to make a living out of it but
does not believe (s)he could. Thing is, you eventually come to a point in a,
for example, technical discussion where you (as the one who wants to make a
living out of it) try to tell the other one how to fix a certain problem or
what's needed to make it work to just see how (s)he is bailing out saying the
game is just a hobby, but with you seeing that even that hobby never leads to
anything due to that attitude.

I mean, there are people doing gamedev as a hobby for real, no problem. But
I'm talking about those sitting on the fence climbing down whenever it becomes
a bit more difficult. Drawing from this experience, today, I refrain from
talking to people who do gamedev just as a "hobby", for they will never get
anything done and there is nothing coming back with my time totally wasted.

For the sake of completeness; It's fine to make games as a hobby. That's not
the point. It's about those doing it as a hobby in disguise, i.e. sitting on
the fence not wanting to take any risk but want to have all the benefits.
Anyone?
I wish I read this 3 years ago when my first game was quickly going down in flames because of apathy. It's taken me years to digest all the problems we had then. There were lots of them, but scope changes and no end target were the major ones. We could have cut the project down, rolled up our sleeves, and finished the game; but instead we stopped emailing each other, got busier with other work, and let all the work we had done rot away.
I told myself it was a failed hobby in way so it was fine.

It's not fine. I dropped the ball and I wasted over a year of my life and my two partners life because we were scared of the hard work. We were working for our future. To be our own company and control our own projects. It wasn't about profit it was about doing what we loved. Yet we lost sight of that.

So here I am again. Four months into a new project. Focused on completing it, not perfecting it. Rock solid requirements that will only change to reduce them. Working towards a prototype that could be released as a stand alone game if I wanted too. I'm closer to a finished game than I have ever been and it only took 5 years of practice and failure to get here.

RPG Prototype Goals:
-----------------
UI
X-Main Menu
X-Dialogs
X-Info Message
X-inventory
X-Character Sheet
-Party Formation
X-Save & Quit from Game
-Pause Menu

In Game Dialogs
X-Character Creation Dialog
X-Trait Tests
X-Take Item
X-Give Item
X-Add character to party

Maps
X-Forest Map
-Traveler's Camp

Gameplay
X-NPC recruitment dialog
-Trait check teacher dialog
X-Quest Engine
-Field Quest
-Hedge Wizard Quest

Combat
X-Load Enemies from Seed
X-Set Initiative Order
-Monster AI
-Select Action
-Select Target
-Perform Action
-Victory and Rewards
-Defeat and Death
 

DemonNite

Member
I wish I read this 3 years ago when my first game was quickly going down in flames because of apathy. It's taken me years to digest all the problems we had then. There were lots of them, but scope changes and no end target were the major ones. We could have cut the project down, rolled up our sleeves, and finished the game; but instead we stopped emailing each other, got busier with other work, and let all the work we had done rot away.
I told myself it was a failed hobby in way so it was fine.

It's not fine. I dropped the ball and I wasted over a year of my life and my two partners life because we were scared of the hard work. We were working for our future. To be our own company and control our own projects. It wasn't about profit it was about doing what we loved. Yet we lost sight of that.

So here I am again. Four months into a new project. Focused on completing it, not perfecting it. Rock solid requirements that will only change to reduce them. Working towards a prototype that could be released as a stand alone game if I wanted too. I'm closer to a finished game than I have ever been and it only took 5 years of practice and failure to get here.

RPG Prototype Goals:
-----------------
UI
X-Main Menu
X-Dialogs
X-Info Message
X-inventory
X-Character Sheet
-Party Formation
X-Save & Quit from Game
-Pause Menu

In Game Dialogs
X-Character Creation Dialog
X-Trait Tests
X-Take Item
X-Give Item
X-Add character to party

Maps
X-Forest Map
-Traveler's Camp

Gameplay
X-NPC recruitment dialog
-Trait check teacher dialog
X-Quest Engine
-Field Quest
-Hedge Wizard Quest

Combat
X-Load Enemies from Seed
X-Set Initiative Order
-Monster AI
-Select Action
-Select Target
-Perform Action
-Victory and Rewards
-Defeat and Death

Really good to see some not give up and try again.

As for your list of goals, that is one large prototype! (more like a vertical slice) stick with it though as its always good for motivation :)

In my experience (professional and indie), a prototype would be created to do one thing only and nothing else. I just find it quicker and easier to find issues when isolated for me.
 

fresquito

Member
Really good to see some not give up and try again.

As for your list of goals, that is one large prototype! (more like a vertical slice) stick with it though as its always good for motivation :)

In my experience (professional and indie), a prototype would be created to do one thing only and nothing else. I just find it quicker and easier to find issues when isolated for me.
So true. That doesn't sound like a prototype at all. But I agree it's great to see people coming from their graves and give their everything to reach their goals.
 

JeffG

Member
What I've found out is that talking with people about gamedev is way different
if you do it just as a hobby vs. try to make a living out of it. From my
experience the hobby dude basically also wants to make a living out of it but
does not believe (s)he could. Thing is, you eventually come to a point in a,
for example, technical discussion where you (as the one who wants to make a
living out of it) try to tell the other one how to fix a certain problem or
what's needed to make it work to just see how (s)he is bailing out saying the
game is just a hobby, but with you seeing that even that hobby never leads to
anything due to that attitude.

I mean, there are people doing gamedev as a hobby for real, no problem. But
I'm talking about those sitting on the fence climbing down whenever it becomes
a bit more difficult. Drawing from this experience, today, I refrain from
talking to people who do gamedev just as a "hobby", for they will never get
anything done and there is nothing coming back with my time totally wasted.

For the sake of completeness; It's fine to make games as a hobby. That's not
the point. It's about those doing it as a hobby in disguise, i.e. sitting on
the fence not wanting to take any risk but want to have all the benefits.
Anyone?
I get what you are saying. I would guess that a few in this forum would fall into the hobby level. With current tools it is very easy to be a "game developer"

Heck even I kinda classify myself as a hobbyist

I'm 52
Been writing code for 25 yrs (one of those high priced consultants writing business software), so I understand what it takes to complete projects.

I make jokes that game dev is for my retirement.

Now...if...IF..I can get my "hobby" POC game to code complete. I will actually form a company and apply to ID@Xbox

If I don't get it to completion...oh well...It amused me.
 

LordRaptor

Member
So here I am again. Four months into a new project. Focused on completing it, not perfecting it.

RPGs are notoriously one of the 'traps' for new indies whose ambition exceeds their reach; I don't mean this to dissuade you, because its totally possible to solo an RPG (look at the Zeboyd Games folks as an aspiration!) just as a note of caution, that if you've been burnt on biting off more than you can chew before... well, RPGs have a real risk of that.

Does anyone know if it's okay to publish Steam Greenlight numbers/graphs/etc?

I don't believe they are NDAed, I think most people just don't reveal them for the same reasons people don't reveal their salary to others working at the same company.
 

embalm

Member
Really good to see some not give up and try again.

As for your list of goals, that is one large prototype! (more like a vertical slice) stick with it though as its always good for motivation :)

In my experience (professional and indie), a prototype would be created to do one thing only and nothing else. I just find it quicker and easier to find issues when isolated for me.
You're right, that list is very much a slice of the whole project. Each portion has been it's own prototype where I reach an end point.

My first project was Braching Dialog using a Json for data. I completed it and started my next part, which was Main menu and Character Creation. Inventory was also it's own encapsulated portion of work.

I have made a real effort making sure that each portion of work I plan out could be removed from the project and the game could live on in that form. Right now I have a game where you can explore, collect equipment, and interact with various NPCs.
 

embalm

Member
RPGs are notoriously one of the 'traps' for new indies whose ambition exceeds their reach; I don't mean this to dissuade you, because its totally possible to solo an RPG (look at the Zeboyd Games folks as an aspiration!) just as a note of caution, that if you've been burnt on biting off more than you can chew before... well, RPGs have a real risk of that..
I come from a table top background so the mechanics and number crunch feels like home to me. I'm drawing on a wealth of D&D experience for the basic story lines, and keeping them simple. I'm a programmer by profession so big complicated problems intrigue me and an RPG presents many of them.
I weighed a couple options for what to dive into and an NES era RPG seemed to make the most sense for me personally. It plays to my advantages more than the platformer and mobile game ideas I was kicking around.

I
 

Dusk Golem

A 21st Century Rockefeller
Finally submitted to Steam Greenlight: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=229949176

Let me know if you spot any typos!

Originally wanted to wait to do Greenlight after I'd put more work into the game's visuals, but was worried they could end Greenlight any day now. So this is a bit rushed, but I figure it's better than nothing :)

Your timing... I'll post this here too. I did vote for your game just now, individual pages are still up, but see if it all gets fixed a bit later or stays like this. First time I've seen it like this myself, but maybe more common than I realize.



Guys, I think Greenlight may be about to be replaced.

Right now you can't browse any Greenlight games on the Greenlight page and the front page got rid of "Your queue", "Recent", etc. Like it's all been removed.

It might just be busy and not loading, but it's the first time I've seen it like this.

 

DemonNite

Member
Your timing... I'll post this here too. I did vote for your game just now, individual pages are still up, but see if it all gets fixed a bit later or stays like this. First time I've seen it like this myself, but maybe more common than I realize.



Guys, I think Greenlight may be about to be replaced.

Right now you can't browse any Greenlight games on the Greenlight page and the front page got rid of "Your queue", "Recent", etc. Like it's all been removed.

It might just be busy and not loading, but it's the first time I've seen it like this.

I still wonder what will happen to my 2 store submission credits that I have saved... is that unaffected and I can submit whenever?
 

MimiMe

Member
I still wonder what will happen to my 2 store submission credits that I have saved... is that unaffected and I can submit whenever?

thats what I wanted to do for the last two weeks having the same thought.

/edit
oh wait. credits? I thought you had two greenlight projects which you did not make public.
 
Your timing... I'll post this here too. I did vote for your game just now, individual pages are still up, but see if it all gets fixed a bit later or stays like this. First time I've seen it like this myself, but maybe more common than I realize.



Guys, I think Greenlight may be about to be replaced.

Right now you can't browse any Greenlight games on the Greenlight page and the front page got rid of "Your queue", "Recent", etc. Like it's all been removed.

It might just be busy and not loading, but it's the first time I've seen it like this.

works for me
 

slash000

Zeboyd Games
RPGs are notoriously one of the 'traps' for new indies whose ambition exceeds their reach; I don't mean this to dissuade you, because its totally possible to solo an RPG (look at the Zeboyd Games folks as an aspiration!) just as a note of caution, that if you've been burnt on biting off more than you can chew before... well, RPGs have a real risk of that.

I'm not sure what you mean by "solo an RPG" because Zeboyd Games has always been a two person team, often with the additional work and help from an audio person or team.

That said a very, very simple RPG isn't *too super hard* to make if the scope is appropriate.
 
Amen to RPGs being the biggest new-indie mistake.

Developing REDFOXES was a nightmare when I was originally planning it as an RPG, but it's become something I've been able to enjoy working on ever since I threw all the RPG elements in the trash in favor of going pure-action with minor RPG-inspired elements ala STALKER. And then gradual culling of the scope from there until I have something manageable.

I mean, I might revisit the RPG concepts I was originally going for some day, but after I ship REDFOXES I'll probably be focused on learning a 3D engine for future action projects.
 

LordRaptor

Member
I'm not sure what you mean by "solo an RPG" because Zeboyd Games has always been a two person team, often with the additional work and help from an audio person or team.

You guys setup is as a coder + an artist, shared design, right? (Apologies if I'm wrong)
Someone just on the code + design side could plausibly 'solo' using free assets if it was primarily as a proof of concept for something like a kickstarter to secure dediated / unique outsourced art
 

Lautaro

Member
Just lol at the people making a RPG as their first project. I have a published game and for my second commercial project I decided to make a single player RPG and despite my experience I'm pretty overwhelmed trying to finish it.

Its not impossible but knowing about mechanics won't help you when you are busy writing dialogues, coding a lot of UI elements and secondary features,creating scenarios, testing, etc. Its all about the scale of the project so unless you are making something simple with RPG Maker better start cutting.
 

missile

Member
I wish I read this 3 years ago when my first game was quickly going down in flames because of apathy. ...
Good luck this time!


I get what you are saying. I would guess that a few in this forum would fall into the hobby level. With current tools it is very easy to be a "game developer"

Heck even I kinda classify myself as a hobbyist

I'm 52
Been writing code for 25 yrs (one of those high priced consultants writing business software), so I understand what it takes to complete projects.

I make jokes that game dev is for my retirement.

Now...if...IF..I can get my "hobby" POC game to code complete. I will actually form a company and apply to ID@Xbox

If I don't get it to completion...oh well...It amused me.
Friend of mine recently said how different it all is writing business software
vs. games. Doing business software is usually a high paid marked but boring
as hell when programming stuff like databases etc., with you dreaming of
programming games for a living or something, yet you are already trapped by
all the money you get to pay for all the dependencies you've made over time
i.e. for your current living standard. It's really hard for those people to
step down making scarifies. But some will do after having run around in the
system for ages realizing that they just don't live by their own ideas but
live and work for others who (in the end) don't care the slighted about you
and your significant others. What's your take on the matter?
 

missile

Member
forgot to mention that I am getting Death Track vibes from your cockpit
https://youtu.be/8sn8zPOvIyY?t=2m3s

btw: rudimentär ^^
^^ Hopefully my one will be a bit better, but not too much. ;)


cool stuff :)

What resolution do you think it will be in that display? will it be clear enough to see details such as rockets? ...
Good question. Well, the resolution can be made as high as possible, higher
than the main screen if needed, but comes at a price tag. ;) Technically there
is no limit for the resolution of that display. I have to see and wait how it
turns out depending on the load of other things in the game.

If the resolution needs to stay lower I will use it just as an orientation
indicator instead of trying to display any detailed information. Rockets could
work even with this low resolution if you give them a glowing halo or similar,
i.e. their exhaust may light up the environment nearby with you seeing the
light coming towards you from behind at a rapid pace.

But I'm still undecided by how much I want to have things coming from behind,
gameplay-wise. It's computationally also much more demanding, for you can't
cull objects out that easily. But I somehow want to have this rear view.

Because what I've noticed from many racing games is that without a rear view
the game is incomplete, feels discontinues and flat. In WipEout, for example,
you can flip the whole view with a press of a button, but this doesn't work
when going fast or while cornering. You are also blind-folded for a fraction
of a seconds when flipping the screen. The rear indicator on the main screen
(showing from what direction and how far your opponent is, roughly) is, quite
interestingly, the most important thing when racing on a competitive level for
a couple of (tactical) reasons. However, this indicator falls short when the
opponent is really close and wants to overtake you which is really a problem
in WipEout. Leaving the bad collision detection aside, the problem is that you
can't see how your opponent runs into the corner (that is to say how the two
crafts set up for the corner) because you don't know where the other one is
when being close, which you need to know to run through the corner together
without a collision (for multiple corners).

And that's where I think I can put these displays to some good use even at
low resolution. I can mount them on the craft letting them look to the side
and somewhat behind covering the whole dead angle. With this setup the
opponent will be displayed at the center of that display if (s)he is right
next to you but still half a length behind such that going into the corner
would lead into a crash with you running the ideal line still. With that
information at hand, before entering the corner, you can give some room or
race a different line to prevent a collision which would otherwise slow down
both, and which is also very annoying the say the least and is a huge problem
when racing fast, for you will be put off by a large amount considering the
scales which are important when racing fast. I think racing is much more fun
if you can run through corners together fast without touching.

Anyhow, I've already another idea for the rear view display showing here;

Gs7Kfs6.png


I will try to build a curved display into the region marked red and see how
it performs.


... You know what would be awesome? It makes me think about older flight-sim games where certain missiles had on board cameras and you could see its POV on the display once launched :)
Oh thx for bringing that up! :) Yeah, I've played TFX 2000 a lot sitting in
that plane firing mavericks guiding them into their target via that little
monitor. That was really cool! Yeah, could be useful for making some long
distance shots.
 

JeffG

Member
Friend of mine recently said how different it all is writing business software vs. games.
as a Job or the act of coding?

I find the coding to be basically the same. I could see a job in game development being quite different from the projects I am on. (37.5 hr/week of easy peasy project work.)


Doing business software is usually a high paid marked but boring
as hell when programming stuff like databases etc., with you dreaming of
programming games for a living or something, yet you are already trapped by
all the money you get to pay for all the dependencies you've made over time
i.e. for your current living standard.
I get what you are saying, but business software doesn't have to be boring. Some projects/tasks can be boring. I used to switch jobs every 3-5 yrs when I bumped intone of those. (Been doing GIS software for the same company for 15 yrs currently)

and money is nice. If I would of tried to go full time game dev, I would be taking a hit and I am not willing to do that, but I don't feel trapped. Not even close. Travel 5 weeks a year around the world is all good in my books ;)


But I don't think I am the guy you are trying to describe. So yes it would be a sacrifice to jump into Game development. Could be very stressful if you had a young family.

But some will do after having run around in the
system for ages realizing that they just don't live by their own ideas but
live and work for others who (in the end) don't care the slighted about you
and your significant others. What's your take on the matter?
That's the artist part of the game developer talking. lol

I don't think it applies to me. I am too fucking old. I want to retire in ~5 yrs (+/- 2 yrs) My job is easy. I have lots of time to putz and I don't have to succeed, now if I was 30 I might of answered differently, but by a quirk of fate. I stopped gaming in my 30's and it wasn't until my new wife that I started again.

Her son had an 360. It got Red ringed of death. She didn't want her son to go to his father...so I had to go buy a new 360. I phoned Microsoft about the dead one and they sent me a working 360. So we now had 2. So it became mine. So 10 yrs ago, I rediscovered gaming. Started fucking with XNA while on the bench at work. Moved up to Unity when the Xbox One was released. and now I hang out with youngsters on gaming forums lol
 

ZServ

Member
Just lol at the people making a RPG as their first project. I have a published game and for my second commercial project I decided to make a single player RPG and despite my experience I'm pretty overwhelmed trying to finish it.

Its not impossible but knowing about mechanics won't help you when you are busy writing dialogues, coding a lot of UI elements and secondary features,creating scenarios, testing, etc. Its all about the scale of the project so unless you are making something simple with RPG Maker better start cutting.

Meh, I made this mistake. For sure scope becomes a problem, but I definitely feel like I've come through it thus far improving at an alarming rate. Granted, I decided to avoid going for a serious narrative, instead focusing on gameplay and a Zelda type story. So miles of dialogue really hasn't been an issue, but.. Yeah, definitely could be if someone tried to make something like a Final Fantasy off the bat.
 

Belstras

Member
What I've found out is that talking with people about gamedev is way different
if you do it just as a hobby vs. try to make a living out of it. From my
experience the hobby dude basically also wants to make a living out of it but
does not believe (s)he could. Thing is, you eventually come to a point in a,
for example, technical discussion where you (as the one who wants to make a
living out of it) try to tell the other one how to fix a certain problem or
what's needed to make it work to just see how (s)he is bailing out saying the
game is just a hobby, but with you seeing that even that hobby never leads to
anything due to that attitude.

I mean, there are people doing gamedev as a hobby for real, no problem. But
I'm talking about those sitting on the fence climbing down whenever it becomes
a bit more difficult. Drawing from this experience, today, I refrain from
talking to people who do gamedev just as a "hobby", for they will never get
anything done and there is nothing coming back with my time totally wasted.

For the sake of completeness; It's fine to make games as a hobby. That's not
the point. It's about those doing it as a hobby in disguise, i.e. sitting on
the fence not wanting to take any risk but want to have all the benefits.
Anyone?



I don't get the real devs vs hobbyist thing going on in this thread. Just comes as self-important and pretentious. People should be able to choose if they want to pursue it seriously or not, without being guilt tripped about it. Unless you would work with them or are their sponsor but that is a whole different thing. Mini-class structures on the internet is stupid.
 
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