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Star Wars Battlefront 2s Microtransactions Are Shaping up to Be Pay-To-Win
- Thread starter Strakt
- Start date
pretty much , wanted to try this beta and first thing that came to me were some lootbox messages and when i was doen with it I lost the drive to try the game
Mechanized
Member
"All DLC will be free!" *Cheers*
"...psst... but the entire game is based on pay to win loot boxes..."
"...psst... but the entire game is based on pay to win loot boxes..."
BrassDragon
Member
'Time to crate' has a whole new meaning in 2017.
A+ post.
People who thought that map packs would simply be free without a way to recoup lost revenue were just kidding themselves. That is not how AAA gaming works anymore.
thehillissilent
Member
I need to get some serious graphics mods for 2005 version though. At least I already own it.
Yeah you can tell playing the beta the grind will be real and gently nudging you towards just plunking down for guaranteed loot boxes here and there.
I've unlocked some good enhancing star cards for space ships mainly, so I hope my experience is similar if I end up buying this.
SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
The whole thing is a grey area because the tokens are tied to dice rolls. Paying offers no guarantee of a tactical advantage. It's an even worse value proposition than the shortcut packs DICE has been selling since BF3.
The fact that they tied a skinner box to the game is more ethically dubious than the ability to buy into it. But these loot treadmills work so they're not going anywhere.
Voidwolf
Member
I'm really glad the loot crates are going to allow them to release free DLC thus not splitting the playerbase and extending the life of the game but I really hope they just balance them better.
Now, this is a beta and I think they'll tweak things before the final release but from what I've gathered you get loot crates every time you rank up, complete a challenge, log in for the daily crate, and level up a class/ship. The crates you get for leveling up a class/ship and the crates you get from completing challenges seem to guarantee giving at least one item for that class or vehicle.
Dice needs to do a few things:
1) Hard code unlocks so you will get a specific weapon/attachment based on what level you reach (be it overall rank or specific to that class) or challenge you complete. For example, If I want to unlock the E-33 (Boba Fett's gun) for regular infantry use, I can wait until I reach rank 25 or gamble on loot crates. They could also tie unlocks to challenges or sets of challenges. And weapon attachments should be unlocked by using the weapon they are for.
2) We need to have a regular income of Scrap so that crafting upgrades for our Star Cards is a regular occurrence. Every match we complete should give us credits and scrap. Playing the objective and that alone should increase the scrap we get at the end of a match. And every single loot crate, earned or bought, needs to give scrap.
3) Star Cards should be unlocked by class progression. Every time we level up a class X amount of times, we should unlock one of their Star Cards. And with all the scrap we earn we can upgrade them.
If they implement this or something close to it then we'll have a fairly standard multiplayer progression system with the loot box gambling on the side to fund the DLC. And I won't complain about that.
Now, this is a beta and I think they'll tweak things before the final release but from what I've gathered you get loot crates every time you rank up, complete a challenge, log in for the daily crate, and level up a class/ship. The crates you get for leveling up a class/ship and the crates you get from completing challenges seem to guarantee giving at least one item for that class or vehicle.
Dice needs to do a few things:
1) Hard code unlocks so you will get a specific weapon/attachment based on what level you reach (be it overall rank or specific to that class) or challenge you complete. For example, If I want to unlock the E-33 (Boba Fett's gun) for regular infantry use, I can wait until I reach rank 25 or gamble on loot crates. They could also tie unlocks to challenges or sets of challenges. And weapon attachments should be unlocked by using the weapon they are for.
2) We need to have a regular income of Scrap so that crafting upgrades for our Star Cards is a regular occurrence. Every match we complete should give us credits and scrap. Playing the objective and that alone should increase the scrap we get at the end of a match. And every single loot crate, earned or bought, needs to give scrap.
3) Star Cards should be unlocked by class progression. Every time we level up a class X amount of times, we should unlock one of their Star Cards. And with all the scrap we earn we can upgrade them.
If they implement this or something close to it then we'll have a fairly standard multiplayer progression system with the loot box gambling on the side to fund the DLC. And I won't complain about that.
ComputerBlue
Member
There are so many things you can lock behind loot crates that aren't game changing.
Skins for Heroes, troopers etc. Emotes, stances, player cards, emblems, there are so many characters in this universe, imagine how many different emblems they could have created. They could have included a diorama like the first game with all items locked behind crates, or a sticker book instead, xp boosts, player heads/helmets, hair styles, races, backgrounds for post game hero podiums...
I can go on....Don't tell me that this was necessary because it absolutely isn't.
Oh, and if you think that were going to get "map packs" then you're sadly mistaken, were not going to get even half the content a season pass would deliver, it'l be 1/4 at best.
This is a real bummer because I legit was going to buy this game. Just like For Honor, I must bypass this stuff
Even more disappointing I had no idea this was a thing til now. Why are we just finding out this game has loot boxes? I admit I was only loosely following the game but I was gonna get it for sure because I got all the other Battlefronts (even the classics)
Yep. Wish they'd just include a bunch of map packs and content then move on to the next game. I'd prefer that to loot boxes
Even more disappointing I had no idea this was a thing til now. Why are we just finding out this game has loot boxes? I admit I was only loosely following the game but I was gonna get it for sure because I got all the other Battlefronts (even the classics)
Yep. Wish they'd just include a bunch of map packs and content then move on to the next game. I'd prefer that to loot boxes
I did not say that at all. Loot boxes are an all or non proposition. You either are okay with them in any form or you are not. The nuance you are looking for requires constant policing/regulation and will be always open to abuse.
ScaryShark
Banned
Absolutely. Now I can still play with my friends for the life of the game instead of having to expect them to pay $50 to keep up with the game's future content.
Yeah but you never had to buy the season pass. I know I never did.
i dont mean to be offensive, but i feel like THIS is the attitude that the people making these decisions want you to make. there should be no reason i shouldnt be able to walk away with a full and balanced game after spending almost 100 dollars on a new release.
ScaryShark
Banned
Thanks for completely missing the point I was making.
If I wanted the additional content I had to pay $50 and I would need all of my friends to if I wanted to play with them. Now we don't have to and that's a trade I'd make every day.
Especially when the 'pay to win' aspect is overblown.
Yes my point is you never needed that content. The base game was fine. I just now got the DLC only because it was free
(That's the funny part about all of this- devs need to release complete games upfront and then just move on to their next title)
Tal Shiar Agent
Member
The definition of pay to win has been really stretched and modified to fit narratives. Almost no one cries pay to win when a paid DLC pack includes weapons.
In the most straightforward sense, the lootboxes in Battlefront II are no more pay to win then the shortcut kits that have been a part of DICE shooters since Battlefield: Bad Company 2.
In the most straightforward sense, the lootboxes in Battlefront II are no more pay to win then the shortcut kits that have been a part of DICE shooters since Battlefield: Bad Company 2.
ComputerBlue
Member
You seem quite accepting and okay with them...Like, okay...lets just deal with it because that's just the way it is now. Regardless of what they put in them. Next it'l be maps themselves, how will you feel about that? Will you put it down to "that's just not how gaming works anymore"?
Eh you really don't. Is it cosmetic? I don't care.
Does it affect moment to moment gameplay? I'm out. Even if your game is free.
And how you butcher definition of P2W makes it so that absolutely nothing that gives players power for is P2W. It's just shortcut.
ScaryShark
Banned
Thanks for letting me know what I did or didn't want or if the base game satiated my friends and I.
Tal Shiar Agent
Member
If you've actually read my posts that's not what I said. When there are weapons, abilities, or other gameplay altering items that are only available in lootboxes and nowhere else, that is pay to win. Shortcuts are not pay to win.
IISANDERII
Member
I dont even want to try the beta after this. But maybe I will just so these fucking clowns that my trail did not translate into a sale.
schaft0620
Member
The game is so much fun to play I honestly won't be bothered by this. Normally I would boycott but, it just makes earning the items that much more rewarding knowing that people could be paying for these items.
I really enjoy the game.
I really enjoy the game.
Sleight of Jam
Banned
Huh? I don't think you're quite understanding the argument.
No you're not either okay with them in any form or not, there are boundaries. Boundaries of which that do not need regulation. Keep them solely as items that give you no advantage in game whatsoever and keep them permanently at a cosmetic level. Done.
Voidwolf
Member
The base game was not fine, it was severely lacking in content. And other than the die hard fans, not many were willing to spend the extra cash to get the DLC, as you have just proven.
1. you pay money for a loot crate
2. you open the crate
3. you get 3 star cards
4. you apply the star cards
5. star cards give you Bonus or weapons that makes you more powerful.
how is this not Pay 2 win?
Because you're not sure to win if you pay.
Sleight of Jam
Banned
Lol shortcuts are not pay to win? This could be called "cheating" in a sense, you're unfairly (potentially as its gambling) getting quicker access to these bonuses that give you an advantage.
There's no justifying this, sorry. Your arguments don't have much ground.
Edit: also I thought I'd add to this. Yes you're not guaranteed to get decent stuff from the boxes, but the more you pay, the more likely you are.
Tal Shiar Agent
Member
^ It isn't any different at the end than someone who plays 8 hours a day. You don't get anything by paying that you wouldn't get by playing.
Because to be pay to win those 3 star cards would have to only be available in the crates and not earnable through normal gameplay.
the definition of pay 2 win is not "pay for something others can´t get without paying money".
it is "Pay 2 get an advantage over other players" (even if you can get them by playing the game normal).
(loosely translated)
But the point here is that you CAN pay if you want to ..
it is the same as with mobile games.. you can play normally, which takes forever because the game is based around ingame purchases, or get it by paying money right away.
This argument is so tiresome. Of course it's still P2W, if you spend 50$ on Microtransaction and get every highest tier card, while I who will not pay a cent for these loot crates, will have to play weeks to gain access to everything high tier.
You get an advantage by spending more money on it and even if it's only a 0.1% advantage, it's still an advantage.
ScaryShark
Banned
A crate isn't a guarantee to get an advantage though. Even in the beta, the variance in what you get is pretty wide and they are spread amongst many different classes and modes.
If someone is this impatient and sweaty that they'd rather pay out of pocket to ramp up a little bit faster, be my guest.
You also assume that the game will be so out of balance that someone who has the highest level star cards will be much superior to the person that doesn't. Given what the star cards actually do for you, I don't think that will really be the case.
Mr. Phellps
Member
So the Star Cards aren't consumable, bur, rather, level-ups of sorts? In that case, I don't think it's that bad, considering you get the same stuff through regular gameplay, just at a different pace.
What I truly consider pay-to-win is when all superior content is held behind a mandatory paywall. Like when The Last of Us decided to release an overpowered weapons pack that you couldn't get through regular gameplay. That truly broke the game.
It's in their best interest to keep releasing new stuff so people don't lose interest in the game. If players get bored and stop playing, that means there will be less people buying loot boxes.
One of EA's first ventures into the lootbox game was Mass Effect 3's multiplayer. And a shit ton of content was released for it for free. I don't expect Battlefront to be different. It has far more revenue potential.
What I truly consider pay-to-win is when all superior content is held behind a mandatory paywall. Like when The Last of Us decided to release an overpowered weapons pack that you couldn't get through regular gameplay. That truly broke the game.
It's in their best interest to keep releasing new stuff so people don't lose interest in the game. If players get bored and stop playing, that means there will be less people buying loot boxes.
One of EA's first ventures into the lootbox game was Mass Effect 3's multiplayer. And a shit ton of content was released for it for free. I don't expect Battlefront to be different. It has far more revenue potential.
Tal Shiar Agent
Member
That's a far too broad a definition. I pay for better internet than you, is that pay to win?
Okay, even if you still want to call shortcuts pay to win, is it really a bad thing? What I consider bad is when I can't get a weapon or ability because I didn't pay extra for it. Someone getting a weapon early because they wanted to pay and I don't want to pay so I have to play to get it doesn't bother me at all.
Its seems really irrational to get upset over shortcuts.
ScaryShark
Banned
...and ME3's multiplayer was widely praised by those that actually played it and I never remember any faux outrage over it because it ultimately wasn't that big a deal.
SuperEpicMan
Banned
The argument around micro transactions and loot crates is becoming incredibly annoying tbh. I mean I get why people get salty about it in some games, but the reality as I see it is that the AAA game model without these features is broken.
I mean, people incessantly complain about:
Proliferation of open worlds.
Filler content.
Short games.
Crappy graphics.
Lack of innovation.
and so on.
They expect games to be incredibly high quality, but available at the same price as they have been for years. I mean just using Battlefront 2 as an example. The first one came out and people complained at the lack of maps, content, SP and also the season pass. Now the sequel is coming out which addresses all of that, and incorporates some loot boxes, its suddenly the worst thing in the world. The way I look at it, we could have it a few ways:
A) Games are made to be more cost effective. For instance maybe they have less detailed or stylised graphics, or less content.
B) The games industry re-evalauate the price they are selling their games.
C) Games are made to their vision, but are supported by additional monetisation post launch.
We can't have our cake and eat it.
I mean, people incessantly complain about:
Proliferation of open worlds.
Filler content.
Short games.
Crappy graphics.
Lack of innovation.
and so on.
They expect games to be incredibly high quality, but available at the same price as they have been for years. I mean just using Battlefront 2 as an example. The first one came out and people complained at the lack of maps, content, SP and also the season pass. Now the sequel is coming out which addresses all of that, and incorporates some loot boxes, its suddenly the worst thing in the world. The way I look at it, we could have it a few ways:
A) Games are made to be more cost effective. For instance maybe they have less detailed or stylised graphics, or less content.
B) The games industry re-evalauate the price they are selling their games.
C) Games are made to their vision, but are supported by additional monetisation post launch.
We can't have our cake and eat it.
Yes there is no guarantee when you buy a loot box. That is the gambling part (if you define soccer trading cards, wending machines etc. as gambling), that people also do not like.
About balance.. a 30% downtime reduction is a pretty significant advantage.. but again the final game will show what the end result will be..
we as potential buyers, just need to be careful, and aware of the system behind this.
Voidwolf
Member
You've just described a Free to Play model. They shoved a F2P model in a full priced game in order to fund the DLC.
By your definition. League of Legends is Pay to Win because I can by new champs with real money the second they're released while others who cannot or will not pay real money have to play to earn IP to unlock new champs.
There's a chance you drop $10 dollars on loot crates in Battlefront and get nothing but cosmetic items and equipment you have no interest in. You'll be paying but not necessarily winning. It's gambling, plain and simple. Gambling.
The alternative is to play the game and unlock things naturally. If we didn't have that option, if everything was only obtainable by dropping real world cash, then that would be Pay 2 Win.
And let's keep in mind we still don't know what the final game is like. This is literally Destiny 2 all over again.
I actually expect gaming to go down that route because consumers rarely resist and the gaming industry at its core is a business. The decision makers are deciding how and when a game should be greenlit based on numbers on a spreadsheet or a PowerPoint presentation, much like any other major corporation, You want to make your voice heard then vote with your wallet. So far consumers have done very little pushing back outside of forums and gaming media. It is the same argument we had back in the day about DLC and horse armor. If people are willing to pay for it they will keep doing it.
If you don't push the boundaries, how do you find out if you have maximized your growth?
Will you hold on to this view if they make grind in release such chore that throwing out for epic and legendary cards is only viable way to keep up with those already paying ?
Them having disclaimer about rate of obtaining and quality of loot that you get in beta is just for beta client is somewhat concerning.
Either way I just have gotten impression from your posts in this thread that you have very loose and easily adjustable standards for what P2W is and at what level selling power to players with is okay. Sure my impression could be wrong as I don't know more closely / at personal level.
TheSpoiler
Member
Shortcuts that give a player an advantage over another aren't fun for the latter especially for anything remotely competitive. If I'm playing SFV and someone has a Ryu that does more damage and he got there by paying, I'm probably going to have less fun if things were on an equal level. You may not care, and that's fine, but being dismissive of other consumers is super weak.
None of this is really that deep.
Hero_of_the_Day
Member
Companies are saving me lots of money this year with all the games I'm straight up skipping because of shitty DLC practices. Save money and gives me more time to play all the Switch games I'm currently drowning in. Win win!
It isn't irrational, because they impact your play experience. Game-influencing items that would otherwise be left out, or placed within enjoyable progression, are instead placed at the end of a grind. Additional payment is the way to alleviate this grind. Players who pay gain an 'unfair' gameplay advantage, which can reduce your enjoyment when faced with these players, pushing you to spend money.
They create a problem and charge you for the solution.