In all seriousness, it clearly bothers him, so he should try and act on it instead of whining on here. Fighting games are one of the few genres where you actually have a chance to let the developers listen and act upon constructive criticism. He said a while ago that Team Ninja hate him, when in fact I'd wager that they have no idea who he is. He should stop sending silly images and start trying to get his message across in a sensible, constructive fashion.
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Dead or Alive 5 |OT| Put a little bounce in your sidestep!
- Thread starter Vazra
- Start date
In all seriousness, it clearly bothers him, so he should try and act on it instead of whining on here. Fighting games are one of the few genres where you actually have a chance to let the developers listen and act upon constructive criticism. He said a while ago that Team Ninja hate him, when in fact I'd wager that they have no idea who he is. He should stop sending silly images and start trying to get his message across in a sensible, constructive fashion.
grap3fruitman
Banned
Better players than I have written long, thorough emails directly to Team Ninja breaking down what needs to be fixed and how.
Better players than I have talked face-to-face with Team Ninja about these issues.
I've been very vocal on Twitter, Team Ninja has noticed. When Mr. Wah went to Japan on his own dime to meet Team Ninja last year, a trip I was supposed to go on as well, he gave one-on-one feedback to Team Ninja. During which, the subject of grap3fruitman came up and not the fondest words were spoken.
I was working on a breakdown of their reveal trailer but I quit because of a lack of motivation and difficulty with video editing.
We've had multiple discussions on the FSD forums about these issues over and over again. Shimbori reads those forums himself.
They even listened to the podcast I hosted on FSD where we discussed these same issues. I suggested Jann Lee's dragon stance on the podcast in November 2011 and no where else and that made it into the game.
If you have that much input and you still can't get it right, or even remotely close, then you deserve the shit you get.
DR2K
Banned
Team Ninja specifically stated they were aiming to make the game the core community wanted. Unfortunately they used DOA4 as a base for it. They add sidesteps, guaranteed wall damage, and some guaranteed stuns. A lot of the minor problems were fixed, but the stun system itself and the lack of guaranteed stuns and natural combos is a huge shit stain in the middle of the dinner plate.
Overall Team Ninja listened and at the same time they shoved their heads in the sand.
Overall Team Ninja listened and at the same time they shoved their heads in the sand.
The Faceless Master
Member
grap3 cares more for DOA than all of his haters combined.
you guys just don't realize it because you're blinded by lust.
you guys just don't realize it because you're blinded by lust.
You misunderstand, I don't hate grape: I just am tired of the talking in circles. Yeah, it'd be nice for the game to be more competitive but Team Ninja obviously isn't going that route. So sitting here stamping his feet and not really criticizing the games faults and just going "GAME SUX TEAM NINJA SUX" really isn't going anywhere you know?
DR2K said:
Hey, it's baby steps. Who knows, DOA6 could be the 3.1.2 that Grape wants. As it is, sitting here bitching about it in the thread when he has "more fun with VF5" really isn't doing much. Go play VF5 (if there's still an online community) and let us dirty casuals have our fun?
And I like VF5, I like DOA5. ZOMG WTF.
grap3fruitman
Banned
Earlier I was just venting some frustration. Now I'm back to being genuinely upset with this game and it's not trolling and I'm not wrong. This game is genuinely bad.
I keep trying to give this game an honest shot. After already owning the 360 CE version, I went out and bought the PS3 version specifically to try this 1.03 patch on the recommendation that I'd like it and on Mr. Wah's comment that he likes it as much as 3.1 but for different reasons. In the last 1.5 weeks of owning it, I've put ~40 hours into it and have not been able to find these redeeming qualities. Am I not entitled to discuss my experience? I forgot that NeoGAF was that place where no one ever complained about video games. My mistake.
Well you're wrong. DOA has always had the casual appeal (lots of costumes, awesome stages, cool moves, etc) but there was always a depth to it and you were rewarded for being smart. Those older DOA games got a lot of flack because they were still much more forgiving than other fighters at the time (and even now). After screwing up you were allotted one do-over hold but if you botched that too then you were in for a world of hurt. DOA4 comes along and says you get four to five do-overs now. That was the biggest slap to the dicks of long-time DOA players and it's still present in this game. What's worse this time around was Team Ninja specifically stated they wanted to make a game that could be played competitively. The alpha demo showed some progress, the E3 build showed some more progress (and some steps back) but then Team Ninja took it all back right before release. That's "trolling."
"For all the competitive fighters, DOA5 is better than the previous versions. We want Dead or Alive 5 to be a competitive fighting game. The game has become more competitive than it used to be before, and we have balanced and adjusted it so that it can be that way." - Yohei Shimbori
We were lied right to our faces. He told the same thing to people he met with at pre-release events as well. Why shouldn't I be mad?
You think I'm not? We've told Team Ninja countless times what's wrong with the game and how to fix it and they still won't do it, even after saying they will. What response should I have besides "Your game is bad and you should feel bad?"
They're blinded by ignorance. "DOA was never about competitive play." Yes it was, you just never played competitively, so you wouldn't know. "DOA was always about mix-ups and guessing." Play DOA1, DOA++, DOA2 and DOA3 and then try and tell me that. What do you mean you've "only played DOA4 before?"
Basically.
You guys want frame advantage? Okay. No wait, we take it back. You guys want sidestepping? Okay... but we're going to make every single part of a string re-track your opponent thus making the sidestep completely irrelevant and just to make it that much worse since you're in recovery during the sidestep you'll get hit with counter (125%) damage too. You guys want grapplers to get guaranteed ground throws? Okay. No wait, we're patching that out. You want to be at advantage when you break your opponents' guard? Okay. LOL NOPE PATCHING THAT TOO. You want to get that big damage after out-smarting your opponent? Okay, we're adding this new "critical burst" mechanic that will let you get that big damage after two, maybe three, good hits. NOT IN THE FINAL BIOTCH, GOTTA GUESS FOUR-FIVE TIMES NOW JUST LIKE IN THAT DOA4 GAME YOU HATED FOR THE SAME EXACT REASON. Oh shit, we accidentally left in an item that rewards smart play in our latest patch? DON'T WORRY GUYS, WE'LL PATCH IT OUT.
The Real Napsta
Member
so... that Xbox patch out yet?
grap3fruitman
Banned
No.
Leona Lewis
Banned
I wish grap3 would make a YouTube video demonstrating the effects of these oversights on TN's part. Since DOA5 is my first game in the series, I'd love to see in motion how DOA3 is better and such.
Plus I'd get to match that sexy face with a voice
Plus I'd get to match that sexy face with a voice
I wish grap3 would make a YouTube video demonstrating the effects of these oversights on TN's part. Since DOA5 is my first game in the series, I'd love to see in motion how DOA3 is better and such.
Plus I'd get to match that sexy face with a voice
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=K-F7SZI9ByA
Just an example. In DoA1, ++, DoA2, DoA3, once I hit you, I could do damage with a juggle immediately. In DoA4 and 5, the defender gets multiple opportunities to guess even though they're the one that messed up.
Leona Lewis
Banned
God, DOA3 is just stunning. Put side by side with DOA5 like that...DOA5 objectively looks better, I suppose, but DOA3 just has this visual cohesiveness and integrity (for lack of a better term) that keeps it looking absolutely timeless.
Part of me hopes that instead of a DOA6, next-gen's DOA debut will be DOA3 Ultimate with tons of costumes and all of the DOA3 stages and music (the best in the series).
Part of me hopes that instead of a DOA6, next-gen's DOA debut will be DOA3 Ultimate with tons of costumes and all of the DOA3 stages and music (the best in the series).
grap3fruitman
Banned
Here's the podcast I used to do: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/freestepdodge.com-dead-or/id423122194Plus I'd get to match that sexy face with a voice
Here's the DOA5 breakdown I never finished: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKPRiFHX6vs. I also disagree with my suggestion on how to fix the counter-holds.
Right now, I'd take it back to two-point parry like in DOA1, tone down the number of stuns significantly (to DOA++ levels) but make those few remaining stuns un-holdable. Frames still need to be played with but yeah...
DOA++'s system is a bit too convoluted for my tastes and I'd rather the game move as far as possible away from guessing which hold you want to do. This suggestion here I feel is the best and that takes us back to good ol' DOA1 roots.
Faceless actually has some old DOA1 combo videos showcasing how scary stuns could've been in that game but I'd need to dig 'em up.
The Faceless Master
Member
Is there so visible intermediate attitude toward the game?...
Anway, should the game ever get any major patch planned, what are the odds of getting character buffs and nerfs to resemble a return to old respected mechanics, even if instead of being more universal (which should take a lot longer to implement and rebalance, I guess), would at least apply only to some characters so there'd be more of a glimpse of different varieties of "good old days"?
Changing the kinda of stuns some characters' attacks inflict, removing tracking from some others' attacks, etc...
Almost unrelated: is there no way to get Brad wong to go directly from a knocked-down stance to one of his lying down stances?
It's the sort of thing that sounds like it would make some sense (balance-wise it might be another issue), and DoA being my favorite game to use throws and general grappling/counter techniques in, it seem like it lacks some floor game that appears to be present in some forms of combat - maybe it'd be tricky, but Brad's stances offer a glimpse into that, so I wonder...
Anway, should the game ever get any major patch planned, what are the odds of getting character buffs and nerfs to resemble a return to old respected mechanics, even if instead of being more universal (which should take a lot longer to implement and rebalance, I guess), would at least apply only to some characters so there'd be more of a glimpse of different varieties of "good old days"?
Changing the kinda of stuns some characters' attacks inflict, removing tracking from some others' attacks, etc...
Almost unrelated: is there no way to get Brad wong to go directly from a knocked-down stance to one of his lying down stances?
It's the sort of thing that sounds like it would make some sense (balance-wise it might be another issue), and DoA being my favorite game to use throws and general grappling/counter techniques in, it seem like it lacks some floor game that appears to be present in some forms of combat - maybe it'd be tricky, but Brad's stances offer a glimpse into that, so I wonder...
grap3fruitman
Banned
"Casuals" aren't a problem, Team Ninja wanting this game played exclusively by casuals is.I bought this game because boobs and costumes.
I am part of the casual problem
I believe the game is getting its third and final patch. I say final because they're releasing a "final" guide in Japan in just a few days so I doubt they have plans to further support the game.
I'm not very familiar with Brad but doesn't 2P+K (down and P+K) make him go into his stance?
Characters having different, unique tools is not a detriment to balance: it's a good thing. A lot of the items I'm complaining about mean that most of the cast plays identically and that's bad.
Like I say, I think it's difficult to balance. Has any game really achieved it? Maybe MvC3? I dunno. Games like Tekken and Street Fighter fail miserably at it though.
grap3fruitman
Banned
Not taking out all the tools that high levels players use might be a good start...
Something like that, but once he's knocked to the floor, he has to get up before he can lie down as a stance, AFAIK - it just seems like it would make sense to not have to go through that intermediate step, though that might involve coding an exception to system-wide echanics regarding the "fallen" and "getting up" states.
IIRC the attack buttons (or at least K) trigger a kick from a floored position into a standing state, while H speeds up the getting up part - maybe something like H+P+K could make Brad roll into floor stance so one of the usual outcomes wouldn't happen instead, dunno - just playing with an idea that might make sense.
But then again, I'm not that knowledgeable about DoA's general tendencies regading fallen characters - everyone get a couple of "stomping" attacks that hit on those circumstances (that aren't guaranteed hits), some crouching kicks tend to work, a character of two can grab someone in that state... I know Brad has hits and at least one throw off his lying down stance, but I don't know if stuff like a "stomping" attack can be used on him then or if that option is unavailable for an attacker.
Speaking of which, this reminds me of something - both finals of DoA5 tournaments I've seen were Hayabusa/Helena matches. For what I know and have experienced of both characters they don't seem that similar, but is there something about them that makes them seem like preferable options?
For all the real and perceived problems DoA5 may have, I think in the public eye the biggest problem it could have would be to degenerate into a game of 2 or 3 characters - think SF 3rd Strike, which despite all the praise it's gotten over the years, has long degenerated into a game of Yun and Chun-Li, which made people lose patience with it.
Some superficial experience of Helena show me she seems to hadle combos quite well if you know what you're doing, and Hayabusa, while perhaps not getting that long ones, in the hand of someone with good reactions/reads and execution could wreck some havoc with those special holds into Izuna drops and a few other interesting tricks (I don't expect his teleports - something that distinguishes him from most of the cast - to do much against an experienced player).
Several other characters might feel a bit "plain" in comparison (well, Lisa's acrobatics tend to stand out to me, I'm never quite sure what can be held, how, at what height...), but there's still some decent variety between them, yet I don't really have a trained eye or the experience to tell if the variety of viable characters is an issue, but it's something that kinda worries me.
Ah .. but that was before the patch, after the patch they nerfed her, here's a good video :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOHcZ6PrYbE&feature=youtube_gdata_player
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnG-PHH2YrQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player
I reached S+ today.
I'm not that good though. >.>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YE-VASdnSo&feature=youtube_gdata_player
(I didn't take the name from DR2K lol)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Njf8fUmNKe0&feature=youtube_gdata_player
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOHcZ6PrYbE&feature=youtube_gdata_player
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnG-PHH2YrQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player
I reached S+ today.
I'm not that good though. >.>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YE-VASdnSo&feature=youtube_gdata_player
(I didn't take the name from DR2K lol)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Njf8fUmNKe0&feature=youtube_gdata_player
For those of us that wouldn't know... such as...?
"I am going to go play VF5 since it caters more to what I want than DOA5. See you guys! *doesn't come back to the thread if not going to have an argument past "YOU SHOULD FEEL BAD!"*"
Like I said: boat's sailed, maybe DOA6 will fix your problems. But as it is they obviously aren't going to do it with DOA5. Either have "fun" or get off the pot, you know?
So... how many "pro" level events has DOA been in? Yeah...
Community doesn't really consider it "pro" even if you do. I don't recall ANY DOA3 tournaments being announced back when DOA3 was launched because LOL X-BOX or whatever stupid reasons so it was never taken seriously.
Game's always been seen as casual fighting, never a competitive one.
Frame advantage
follow ups after sitdown stuns
guaranteed natural combos
A useful sidestep
Making ground throws useful
Less moves that stun, allowing an opponent to counter my strings
To name a few.
The Real Napsta
Member
Last week. I think its TBA now.
AFAIK there is not set date yet. All they said was this month.
No PS3 lobbies going for GAF, come on...
(Did join two and had a few red-bars in them, leave. Join an A rank dude, get my ass kicked three times [last one I didn't even push any buttons because I was just stupified]. Quit and try to find another lobby, nada. Done for now, I guess)
(Did join two and had a few red-bars in them, leave. Join an A rank dude, get my ass kicked three times [last one I didn't even push any buttons because I was just stupified]. Quit and try to find another lobby, nada. Done for now, I guess)
DR2K
Banned
Sidestep is the best it has ever been for a DOA game. 3.1 freestep system was somewhat limited, sidestep moves were batshit crazy though, but limited to part of the roster.
Leona Lewis
Banned
Don't worry. When the Vita version comes out, you'll never be wanting for opponents...
hairypeckpeck
Member
those are the funniest matches imo
when someone is so good, you're not even mad that they're beating you to shit, you're just amazed at how you're being bodied
i should be able to get a few games in tonight on ps3. i'm horrible but i dont really give a fuck.
Leona Lewis
Banned
Anyone up for some lobby action? Join my room to kick my ass...
...and die trying.
PSN librasox
...and die trying.
PSN librasox
I've got like 30 mins if you got a room open, let me know and I'll try to find it.
Edit: I'm in. You didn't say hi.
Leona Lewis
Banned
LOL some hilarity all around tonight
EDIT: Holy crap that was you who gave me a shout-out!? I'm so sorry :-(
We need to fix this "you not being on my friends list" problem.
grap3fruitman
Banned
It's not DOA5 but I still think it may be of interest in this thread: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfKm5P27ovY&hd=1
The Faceless Master
Member
there were a bunch of gameplay/system changes between DOA and DOA++
and then there were even more with DOA2, and then it's been largely similar from 2-5 compared to DOA and DOA++
grap3fruitman
Banned
Suggest that again and I'll make your death look like an accident.
DOA1U is a straight port of the Saturn version of DOA1, yes.
What?! Don't you guys know about DOA++?
It's basically DOA1.5. It made a lot of significant gameplay changes that make it play closer to DOA2 while still retaining some of DOA1's stuff while doing some of its own thing (the most difficult hold system in a DOA game ever). If you would go back and play DOA1 right now, you would be thoroughly confused as to how that was a DOA game because it played so incredibly different. If you played DOA++, you would be able to jump in no problem because it's just that much closer to DOA2.
It might be easier to list what it has in common with each game:
DOA1
- the "hold" button, including...
- using 4 and 1 to block
- universal high and low parries
- offensive holds are universal to all characters
- danger zone that will launch your opponent
- looks graphically identical to the PSX version since it's running on hardware based on the original PSX
DOA2
- "Critical State" and the ability to defensive hold while in this stunned state or launch for a juggle
- A "stun threshold" that determines how many times you can stun your opponent before he or she falls over
- Multiple moves that actually stun and cause a "Critical State"
- GUI that gives additional information to the user such as "counter hit," "combo throw," etc
I'm certain there's more but that's all that comes to mind at the moment.
Leona Lewis
Banned
Damn right.
My DOA story:
I first learned about Dead or Alive through the Game Informer November 2001 "Gamecube vs. Xbox" issue.
The screenshots for the DOA3 feature were of that amazing dojo stage with the gold-colored floor and reflections up the wazoo. But I was turned off by the magazine's write-up, which basically characterized the game as a shallow T&A showcase.
My next encounter with the series game through G4 on a show called Cinematech, which was basically a random clip show (though some episodes had themes like unreleased JPN-only games or 16-bit games) of CG and gameplay, sometimes set to hilariously inappropriate music. FFVII and Enya...yeah.
Anyway, one particular episode played an extended clip of the DOA3 gameplay intro (Aerosmith and all). My jaw dropped. I'd never seen a fighting game that moved so fluidly that it actually looked like a scene from a kung-fu movie.
At the time, I was preoccupied with Soul Calibur 2 on Gamecube (guess which way that Game Informer magazine swayed me lol) but couldn't really get into it anymore after seeing the incredibly smooth animations (those seamless hold transitions!), ridiculous attention to detail in stage design...the way the characters moved just seemed so unrestricted by the common conventions of stiff 3D fighters that still didn't grow out of the 2D era.
I didn't have a PS2 or XBOX, so the only hardware I had that could at least give me a taste of DOA3 was my PS1. Bought DOA1 for like $2 from my local shady game store that, in hindsight, I suspect made great use of its CD burner. Anyway, I popped it in and bore witness to the most disappointing piece of shit ever. Even Tekken 1 was at least a rudimentary germ of an idea that its sequels expanded upon, but this game seemed nothing at all like that WOW gameplay trailer I saw on G4.
And fast-forward to TGS 2011, when I did the happy dance as soon as I heard DOA5 was announced for PS3 (skipped Microsoft for the second gen in a row, I always go for the underdogs it seems). Just as quickly, I did the sad dance (?) when I saw that the series was veering into a gritty, brown/gray, male announcer-y, oddly hit spark-y direction that had done not a single Japanese series any favors. But every piece of media afterwards put me at ease since it became evident that the spirit of the series (impressive stage design aside) had not been lost.
And so here I am, hopelessly addicted to the first DOA game I bought with my own money. DOA5+ will make a great little brother
Leona Lewis
Banned
Leona Lewis
Banned
Well, 2003 was still a quite important year for the series...
hikarutilmitt
Member
I've always wanted a port of DOA++, since playing in an emulator is... weird. I LOVE that version of DOA.