%s strikes yet again!Man these last few pages
If you want some lulz go here when this came up originally.
(Yes, I shamefully, drunkenly, couldn't figure out what was happening, either.)
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TRUTHFACT: MS having eSRAM yield problems on Xbox One
- Thread starter chubigans
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If you want some lulz go here when this came up originally.
(Yes, I shamefully, drunkenly, couldn't figure out what was happening, either.)
And possibly in the UK, but thats entirely from the trickle down affect of the xbox360 (Had a 360 before, so should get the next one). I have no idea just how good of an "upgrade" it will be to the current cable boxes we get here as standard now days with exceptionally good controls and options.
Humans are bad at intuiting stats. But I'm not sure that what I've been reading these last few pages is a math issue.%s strikes yet again!
Wow, guys you can't directly compare the performance of two consoles together - it depends on how they've implemented the back-end code in the SDKs and game engines for each console. Tflops be damned, it depends on the quality of the code/algorithms implemented. Of course, there will be performance differences since there's such a large gap in Tflops performance but it won't be THAT apparent visually. I guess the main difference will be in FPS and the amount of spiking present. But even then it won't be THAT noticeable.
Seems anandtech doesn't entirely disagree with my disdain for math. Agree to disagree, the math works both ways.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/6972/xbox-one-hardware-compared-to-playstation-4/2
You do remember this bit though:
From the same article, btw, just a few pages down: http://www.anandtech.com/show/6972/xbox-one-hardware-compared-to-playstation-4/5
anandtech is just using more and less whenever they refer to each system by name. So, if the sentence (or reference) starts with PS4 they say "more" and if the sentence starts with X1 they say "less." In this case the article itself is talking about X1, so they say "33% reduction in compute power."
Pristine_Condition
Member
Really? He did? How much cache does he argue a relatively mildly-clocked CPU needs to stay out of the weeds?
SenjutsuSage
Banned
In conclusion, the math works both ways, as I've said, and have been saying the entire time. Glad we could put this issue to rest lol.
shinra-bansho
Member
Nonsense and bullshit. Both are perfectly accurate given correct context. There is no "accepting one over the other." To do so is idiocy.
There is no "opinion" on either being accurate. It is mathematics.
What you've been incessantly trying to do is convince everyone that one phrasing is "more accurate/correct." It is not.
a downgrade of the bus speed is one thing, a downclock of the actual GPU is something else.
If the yield problem is deeper than suggested and the downclocking is only a bandaid, a delay of a few months will probably cost less than a repeat of the RROD disaster (now with downclocking!).
I'm very interested to see how MS will decide in the very near future.
Hey, how about we agree to do it andandtech's way?
If we refer to PS4 first, we say "more."
If we refer to X1 first, in our sentence, we say "less."
Then fanboys on both sides can agree that whichever system they are referring to first they will use each others preferred terminology. And we can all be friends.
You mean even if it's 0% less than true.
dragonelite
Member
You sure about what you're saying..
Pristine_Condition
Member
I'm was just saying that to show that downclocks and caps happen all the time due to yield issues. In the case of the PS4, it was likely done proactively.
It took me a while to process this before I spit coffee on my keyboard, asshole.
dragonelite
Member
Seems like microsoft greenlighted this project way to late.
JohnnySasaki86
Member
I doubt that's how it works. MS didn't reserve a set number of "flops". That's impossible. They most likely reserved a portion of a CU, or a whole CU unit. Giving XBone 11 out of 12 CUs for games.
With a down clock, all CUs would be affected, so the OS portion of the "flops" would be affected, as in decrease, since your taking 10% of an overall smaller number.
The OS would have a slightly less powerful CU. Would most likely be pretty minor.
bigbaldwolf86
Banned
All this talk of flips, flaps, flops and 40 kinds of RAM is hurting my head.
Good read though
Good read though
dragonelite
Member
Let say you bake 100 cakes.
You expected 60 cakes to be good enough.
But it seems only 30 cakes are good enough.
You have a problem
When you make a chip you are doing things at a very small scale. So sometimes it's not perfect and you have to throw away a chip. Now if you're doing a lot of things at a very small scale (like having 5 billion transistors) there's more chance of something not being perfect and you having to throw it away.
Basically people are arguing that because Microsoft opted to have a much larger chip with a lot more transistors (little logic gate thingies) they're having to throw away more chips than they wanted.
The "wafers" that the chips are made on are really expensive and have to go through a very clean environment and conditions, so if you wind up throwing away a chip you lose money (and that also delays production).
Let say you bake 100 cakes.
You expected 60 cakes to be good enough.
But it seems only 30 cakes are good enough.
You have a problem
^- or that
Nikodemos
Member
Early production yield issues were a near certainty with such a complex chip. Though my take is that it would be better for MS to simply accept restricted initial supply than to downgrade the console's capabilities (aiming for process maturation leading to better yields). Having the early buzz about their console be "It's really weak and it sucks!" is worse than not having enough consoles to sell everywhere.
It took me a while to process this before I spit coffee on my keyboard, asshole.
<3
Let say you bake 100 cakes.
You expected 60 cakes to be good enough.
But it sees only 30 cakes are good enough.
You have a problem
So the APU-die is created within too low margins, so too many aren't useable? And a solution to that is down-clocking, since heat is the issue? Or otherwise more chips can be used?
Let say you bake 100 cakes.
You expected 60 cakes to be good enough.
But it seems only 30 cakes are good enough.
You have a problem
Are those 30 cakes 50% less powerful than some other cakes?
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
I've heard the exact same thing as Thuway.
GPU is getting DC from 2 different sources. One that told me several weeks ago and the other that reconfirmed yesterday.
GPU is getting DC from 2 different sources. One that told me several weeks ago and the other that reconfirmed yesterday.
Those cakes have sufficient secret sauce sprinkled on them, the others do not.
Man, what happened to "Devs have more confidence in MS, are unclear about PS4" and "It'll be a wash"?
^OooooohoooOh.
IF BruceLeeRoy and Thuway are saying this, I'm on board.
Marked_Bravado
Banned
Perfectly stated, but the core does mean something. They buy games. Casuals do not. Casuals won't return now that they play free games on their phones and tablets.
jeff_rigby
Banned
I've posted cites that the PS4 would be using Stacked DDR3. This turned out to be wrong in the short term because it's not ready. Everyone is expecting Sony to move to Stacked DDR3 at the first refresh and that will reduce power and cost.
Everything about the PS4 screams AMD 2014 design released a year early with compromises.
As to the Xboxone rumor, my take is ESRAM is having yield problems. My understanding is that the TDP power limits are calculated using efficient code with as little memory move as possible. If your code is larger than can be contained in ESRAM for instance and you assumed when designing the Silicon that it could fit, you would be over TDP budget it it can't. You have two choices when you discover the issue, rewrite your code or downclock. Both options are configurable using software and can be updated later. I.E. you can downclock now and when you fix the software issue you can configure the clock higher with a firmware update. There is a rush to release and Microsoft may elect to fix the issue later.
Damn. I am torn between these cakes. I think they should retire and rethink the cake production. Don't want to jump into the next-generation half baked now.
Not the cake guy here, but yes! That's exactly it.
Remember how you could "unlock a core" on some AMD cpus? The reason you could do that was because they were unstable at higher temperatures. At least initially (turns out there were entire batches that were fully unlockable stable). So the heat is causing imperfect transistors / logic gates to behave badly and cause problems.
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
Only poster I saw say that was Arthur Gies
mysteriousmage09
Member
And another reporting this.
Lagspike_exe
Member
This entire project is starting to look like a colossal failure from a design standpoint. If this is true, Sony will end up with a 100% more powerful console with the same silicon budget. MS made a terrible mistake with DDR3.
michaelius
Banned
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiconductor_device_fabrication
basically there's a chance each manufactured transistor will be not working as designed (or not working at all)
if there's a 5*10^9 of them on chip then the chance to manufacture whole chip working correctly is p^(5*10^9) where p is chance to produce single transistor correctly.
JohnnySasaki86
Member
Really hoping they don't go through with this in the final units. Really hoping this isnt true, and I don't even plan on buying an XBone. This will hurt multi platform games and therefor PS4 as well. Most developers will program to the lowest common denominator. I see this being REALLY bad for multiplatform games, which is what 75% of people play.
Plus compititon is good for the industry, and XBone needs every performance gain it can get right now to stay competitive with Sonys console, this would be a big step in the opposite direction.
Nope - it was lherre afaik. (the wash part at least)
hUMA's going to change everything. /hackers
(But yeah I've been saying this, and I hope AMD succeeds. PC architecture needs a nice boost.)
Alternatively, Sony got damn lucky with GDDR5. If the supply chain wasn't there they would've been SOL.
Also they contain 50% more raisins, creating a rift for the target customers.
dragonelite
Member
It depends some cakes do have special sauce on them.
But some also make you feel like you're floating on air between the clouds.
EFF U M$! Splitting the userbase already.
No way bro, Xbone would only be 50% less powerful.
lol
Pristine_Condition
Member
Not if your goal was always to beat Google and Apple to the punch addressing the TV audience at-large, rather than competing head-to-head with Sony for core gamers. This has always been about establishing a beachhead vs. Google and Apple--the sooner, the bigger, the better, esp. in terms of marketshare--and they're still clearly more powerful than anything those guys have brought to market.
Like I've said in the past many times, while Microsoft was making core gamers happy and selling "just" 80M units in the process, Apple and Google sold ONE BILLION of their devices that people are using as "second screens," which are competing for consumers' attention in the TV room right now. Microsoft's shareholders see that as the biggest threat to everything Microsoft has done thus far, spending the last 15 years and billions of dollars establishing the brand in the living room.
And you know what? As much as we may not like it, those shareholders are probably right. Microsoft isn't in the business of selling 80-100M units when the other guys are selling over a billion combined. That doesn't interest them. The "core gamer" space has proven too small.
The only question now is, will it work, or has the "second screen" and the slow death of live TV killed the "set top box" model MS is perusing already?
JohnnySasaki86
Member
Yep. The whole thing looks like a big mistake and it started from the planning and design stages. The whole foundation is flawed. You can pretty much nail the blame on the "media all in ONE console" vision. They prioritized this and it cost them big time. All this bullshit that's distracted from what this thing should of focused on, GAMES. With out all this TV bullshit, they would of never mandated 8GB of RAM back in 2010, forcing them to come up with this ridiculous esRAM solution.
I still don't understand why they choose eSRAM over edram? Why? Isn't edram much higher bandwidth and less die space?
shinra-bansho
Member
This. Taken with Matt's comment, seems pretty solid.
Coulomb_Barrier
Member
More accurate is this story:
Say you have 10 eggs. The best poached eggs are cooked at 150ºF in the pot.
You cook the 10 eggs in the pot but only 8 of them cook as perfect poached eggs, 2 of them overcook because they are too hot inside (discard these for a salad or something).
So you turn down the pot temperature to 135ºF and you cook another 10 eggs and none are spoiled. These ain't 10 perfect poached eggs but at this point you don't give a shit cos you're hungry and you have 10 consumable poached eggs.
Amirite?
dragonelite
Member
Wont really matter when a stronger box can just as easily do all that stuff. And the stronger box will grant you more hype. So far the rumors are not really helping microsoft.
Weaker console higher price. I would bet google and apple could release a box as cheap as $99 to compete as a cable box running ios or android.
I really hope microsoft's 1 billion investment in games will pay off.
Only way they can probably increase hype under games.
NoirVisage
Banned
I don't understand, authur posted here in the past, before he lost a bet and wouldn"t pay up.
maquiladora
Member
This needs to go in the OP.
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