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[PsihoPerihelion]

- At the same time we had people not knowing the movie Spaceballs............

That's without a doubt the biggest offender of this thread.

 

[astraycat]

Mods don't make those information public. And CBOAT has leaked checkable information, there is no need for a "verification" because everyone can do it themself.

I think that's part of it. The other part is CBOAT makes predictions about real events that will happen in the future, not claims about what may have happened in the past. The account bet is whether or not those things happen. And as far as I've seen so far, CBOAT's record is amazingly good -- especially given how easy it is for the future to change.

When you make a claim about something that has already happened, the mods really have no choice but to check credentials.

 

[CouldBeWorse]

This digression into the FF13 faceoff is even dumber than the previous ones.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Absolutely mental.

Not if you are able to read.

The eDRAM on the 360 has more bandwidth than the VRAM on the PS3. Leadbetter was complaining that the port didn't use this advantage.

I see. So you are privy to the internal workings of Squenix's development team and you determined yourself that however it is that Crystal Tools works, it could easily have been ported in a way to use the THE LIMITLESS BANDWIDTH AND ENORMOUS LEVELS OF FILL-RATE OF EDRAM?

Face Offs always have frame rate tests. This was the only area the 360 version was better that the PS3 version.

Except that he purposely picked a meaningless in-game cutscene and completely ignored, or more likely he never even played the game far enough to see, the superior framerate of the PS3 version later on in a very large section of actual gameplay.

The rest, well, just mental. OMG.

The classic tactic of someone trying to discredit another person on the Internet is to result to insults when their point has been disproved. It's also a tactic of someone who is losing an argument.

This digression into the FF13 faceoff is even dumber than the previous ones.

I wasn't even the one who brought this up. But the facts speak for themselves, so I won't derail the derailment of this thread any further. I've already proven my point pretty conclusively already.

 

[GribbleGrunger]

Soooo ... What's the percentage ratio of 'probability' that this news IS massaging the truth and hiding a downgrade?

50/50?
70/30?
90/10?

Or is it 100% the case?

 

[coldfoot]

Wouldn't devs just use the entire 32 MB as a frame buffer just like in the 360?

I don't know, but even so, not everything in the framebuffer will benefit from a fast read/modify/write cycle...

 

[Glorified G]

Got banned, which is funny because he could have argued his points using gameplay videos from Youtube or other sources. Lying about something that can be easily refuted is dumb. Why lie about something as silly as that?

He probably thought because there was gameplay footage available, that the game itself was available to the public.

 

[mavs]

I think you have a basic misunderstanding of the original article and claims.

Theoretical maximums by their very nature do not factor in inefficacies. Hence the article saying real world improvements (e.g. factoring in inefficacies) was 133GB/s.

The valid point everyone keep making is if MS have found out a way to double the bandwidth of the ESRAM, that new figure would be exactly twice that (100% increase) of the initial 102GB/s theoretical max. But it's not, it's 88% increase, or 1.92x more. The figures just don't add up.

I think that DF just jumped the gun and wrote an article before they had clarified the finer details (and the audience for DF articles are all about the finer details). I don't believe that MS are lying, or have fabricated numbers, or even that this confirms a downclock. MS (or a dev privy to the info) just need to clarify the maths behind it.

We don't know nearly enough to say the numbers don't add up. I don't expect Microsoft to ever explain to the public how the ESRAM works at an electrical level, and that is what it would take to say it doesn't add up.

Spoiler

I deeply regret having to show up on this side of the debate.

 

[ElTorro]

Soooo ... What's the percentage ratio of 'probability' that this news IS massaging the truth and hiding a downgrade?

If somebody cares about a "real" mathematical assessment of this question, we would have to do a bayesian analysis. Everything else is just...

 

[coldfoot]

The eDRAM on the 360 has more bandwidth than the VRAM on the PS3. Leadbetter was complaining that the port didn't use this advantage.

Show me a single DF Face-Off with a crappy PS3 port that Dick complains about the devs not using the Cell.
Case closed.

Dick might state facts and get most of them right, but his commentary is absolutely sickening and must be ignored. Just read who has better gfx and framerate and ignore the rest.

 

[I2amza]

The thread that keeps on giving strikes again! This time we checking if DF is biased or not.

 

[ginger ninja]

i like this junior bloke above me, thanks for the recap post mate

 

[StudioTan]

I wasn't even the one who brought this up. But the facts speak for themselves, so I won't derail the derailment of this thread any further. I've already proven my point pretty conclusively already.

Yes you were:

I was not aware that DF had a reputation to shit up in the first place. Richard Leadbetter is well known for being a blatant MS and 360 fanboy and because of this almost all of their cross-platform 360 Versus PS3 game comparisons were unreadable biased trash.

Then people asked you to back up this claim and you came up with an article where he talks about how inferior the Xbox version is and wishes it were better.

 

[CLEEK]

Dick might state facts and get most of them right, but his commentary is absolutely sickening and must be ignored. Just read who has better gfx and framerate and ignore the rest.

"absolutely sickening".

If anyone deserves a tag, it's you.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Yes you were:



Then people asked you to back up this claim and you came up with an article where he talks about how inferior the Xbox version is and wishes it were better.

Well, yes and no. The comment I made was in response to a comment on DF's "reputation", such as it was.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=67373286#post67373286

I guess it never occurred to me that the infamous FFXIII comparison wasn't common knowledge and that someone actually thought DF had any real credibility around here.

 

[guch20]

- At the same time we had people not knowing the movie Spaceballs...

 

[graywolf323]

Then people asked you to back up this claim and you came up with an article where he talks about how inferior the Xbox version is and wishes it were better.

I think you just made his point for him, as people have pointed out he doesn't do the same when a PS3 port is inferior

That's without a doubt the biggest offender of this thread.

the schwartz is obviously not with them

 

[StudioTan]

People not knowing Spaceballs.....the worst part of the whole thread.

 

[Snubbers]

Soooo ... What's the percentage ratio of 'probability' that this news IS massaging the truth and hiding a downgrade?

50/50?
70/30?
90/10?

Or is it 100% the case?

In reality it's anywhere from 0-100%, no one actually knows what the exact makeup of the increase is, other then reading and writing at the same time. There are many ways you can get to the same figure, one is the down clock, one is the assymetrical nature of where these processing holes are and I guess anything in between.

I personally think it's way to early to put any conviction into any conclusion, but being open minded seems to leave you open to accusations of working for MS, you have to pick sides and fight the good fight it seems..

 

[Suikoguy]

To be fair, Arguing about DF's credibility is far more on topic then the last 10+ pages, lol.

 

[I2amza]

hahaha. One of my favorite scenes in the movie lmao.

Whoever hasn't watched this movie needs to do themselves a favor and watch it this instant.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

I think you just made his point for him, as people have pointed out he doesn't do the same when a PS3 port is inferior

Furthermore, he doesn't ever excuse an inferior PS3 port as merely a bad port the way he repeatedly tries to state the 360 port of FFXIII is a bad port in as many words.

 

[StudioTan]

I think you just made his point for him, as people have pointed out he doesn't do the same when a PS3 port is inferior

I have no idea, I'm not about to go through all his articles looking for evidence but when he linked that comparison and I skimmed through it I was genuinely curious why that was the smoking gun that he's biased when the whole thing talked about how shoddy the port was.

*Shrug*

EDIT - http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/face-off-resident-evil-5-article?page=2

"What is clear is that while first-party developers are pushing the Sony hardware to new graphical heights for this generation, third-party multi-format game-makers are still having issues replicating Xbox 360 performance. That we should see this from a developer as accomplished as Capcom, whose home market sales are so reliant on PS3, is both surprising and a touch disappointing."

Is he redeemed now?

 

[I2amza]

In reality it's anywhere from 0-100%, no one actually knows what the exact makeup of the increase is, other then reading and writing at the same time. There are many ways you can get to the same figure, one is the down clock, one is the assymetrical nature of where these processing holes are and I guess anything in between.

I personally think it's way to early to put any conviction into any conclusion, but being open minded seems to leave you open to accusations of working for MS, you have to pick sides and fight the good fight it seems..

Technically the probability is 50/50, because it is either true or not. But I am just messing with you

 

[Unknown Soldier]

To be fair, Arguing about DF's credibility is far more on topic then the last 10+ pages, lol.

Well, to be on topic with this thread. Note the DF article's byline that is talked about in the OP. It's Richard Leadbetter.

Since we have now established that Leadbetter has no credibility, and furthermore that some random Twitter may have unwittingly proved that the information was fed to Leadbetter directly from MS, who as a dutiful fanboy or paid shill ran with it without checking the math, it's fairly clear that this whole thread is talking about a DF article which is little more than a fanboy's delusion or worse, a paid advertisement for the Xbox 180. I'll let GAF decide which it may be.

 

[grumble]

GDDR5 is good for graphics, less good for CPU operations due to the higher latency.
DDR3 is good for the CPU but worse for the graphics due to lower bandwith. ESRAM is there to make up for that, at least a little bit.

Incorrect. Gddr5 is similar latency in nanoseconds.

 

[Suikoguy]

Well, to be on topic with this thread. Note the DF article's byline that is talked about in the OP. It's Richard Leadbetter.

Since we have now established that Leadbetter has no credibility, and furthermore that some random Twitter may have unwittingly proved that the information was fed to Leadbetter directly from MS, who as a dutiful fanboy or paid shill ran with it without checking the math, it's fairly clear that this whole thread is talking about a DF article which is little more than a fanboy's delusion or worse, a paid advertisement for the Xbox 180. I'll let GAF decide which it may be.

Well, depends on what credibility we are referring. The statements made in regards to the comparison of multi-platform titles appears to be accurate. On the other hand, it's quite clear he has an agenda.

I think it's very likely that agenda had Leadbetter jump the gun, and he deserves the blow-back for it.

 

[MogCakes]

Speaking of cred, have CBOAT's credentials ever been verified?

The only verification we have is his track record of being over 90% right for his entire history of leaks.

 

[CouldBeWorse]

Well, to be on topic with this thread. Note the DF article's byline that is talked about in the OP. It's Richard Leadbetter.

Since we have now established that Leadbetter has no credibility, and furthermore that some random Twitter may have unwittingly proved that the information was fed to Leadbetter directly from MS, who as a dutiful fanboy or paid shill ran with it without checking the math, it's fairly clear that this whole thread is talking about a DF article which is little more than a fanboy's delusion or worse, a paid advertisement for the Xbox 180. I'll let GAF decide which it may be.

You haven't "established" anything except clearly defining your own bias. It's ironic that you would call someone else a dutiful fanboy with a negative connotation.

 

[CLEEK]

Yes you were:

Then people asked you to back up this claim and you came up with an article where he talks about how inferior the Xbox version is and wishes it were better.

Leadbetter was specifically talking about how the the alpha effect from the PS3 version are intact in the 360 version. Alpha transparencies have always been an issue in PS3 games, as they require high memory bandwidth. Even first part PS3 games suffer from this - see the 8-bit style rain drops in GT5, or even the blocky shadows in TLoU (which is the most technically advanced console game ever).

The EDRAM of the 360 should mean that alpha transparencies should be better. But they weren't. It wasn't DF bellyaching that their beloved Xbox has been robbed of a port of majestic quality it deserves, but just highlighting how the devs hadn't used a basic 'free' hardware benefit in the 360 to make an improvement. He was berating lazy devs.

 

[ElTorro]

There are many ways you can get to the same figure, one is the down clock, one is the assymetrical nature of where these processing holes are and I guess anything in between.

There is just not enough information.

Another thing that came to my mind is that the connections shown on the memory layout diagram are, maybe, logical and not physical. Otherwise, I can't really make sense of statements like

DRAM bandwidth is shared between the following components:

* CPU
* GPU
* Display scan out
* Move engines
* Audio system

in combination with this diagram:

If that is the case, then the bandwidth of the physical interconnect might have been higher than 102,4GB/s all the time but was shared in fixed scheduled slices between multiple clients. The "discovered" increase might be due to some optimization in the scheduling. The fact that some bandwidths are multitudes of other each other (e.g. the bandwidth of all 4 move engines is 102,4) might also point to this interpretation.

But, again, this is all pure speculation based on little reliable information.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

You haven't "established" anything except clearly defining your own bias. It's ironic that you would call someone else a dutiful fanboy with a negative connotation.

As opposed to you, since I've seen you consistently supporting this highly questionable DF article in this thread. I'm sorry, the whole article smells like bullshit and a lot of people have already shown why it's bullshit. Why you are defending it and then trying to call other people fanboys is itself questionable. I've merely demonstrated the highly questionable and biased rhetoric from Leadbetter in the past and noted that he's the same guy who wrote this bullshit article on DF about magical bandwidth increases. I think at this point even Phoenix Wright wouldn't have an objection here to what I have said.

 

[CLEEK]

Show me a single DF Face-Off with a crappy PS3 port that Dick complains about the devs not using the Cell.
Case closed.

Bam!

Case closed indeed.

Reality 1 - Insanity 0

 

[StudioTan]

As opposed to you, since I've seen you consistently supporting this highly questionable DF article in this thread. I'm sorry, the whole article smells like bullshit and a lot of people have already shown why it's bullshit. Why you are defending it and then trying to call other people fanboys is itself questionable.

What about the Resident Evil face off I linked where he was disappointed that 3rd party developers still aren't taking advantage of the PS3 like the first party devs have been able to?

 

[CouldBeWorse]

As opposed to you, since I've seen you consistently supporting this highly questionable DF article in this thread. I'm sorry, the whole article smells like bullshit and a lot of people have already shown why it's bullshit. Why you are defending it and then trying to call other people fanboys is itself questionable.

I will buy you a PS4 if you find ONE post where I support this article. I don't think I even commented directly on it once because I do not give a FUCK about the ESRAM.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

What about the Resident Evil face off I linked where he was disappointed that 3rd party developers still aren't taking advantage of the PS3 like the first party devs have been able to?

The one article he wrote years after he wrote many articles bashing the PS3, and then he wrote the infamous FFXIII article which many people deconstructed 3 years ago long before I was forced to?

I'm sorry, I'm not buying it. He's like a Fox News commentator which pretends to be objective by occasionally throwing in a positive comment about the Democrats once a month. It's not credible, and neither is he.

 

[CLEEK]

I will buy you a PS4 if you find ONE post where I support this article. I don't think I even commented directly on it once because I do not give a FUCK about the ESRAM.

Here

I support this article.

 

[StudioTan]

Here

LOL

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Here

Woah, I get a free PS4. FUCK YEAH!

Should I PM CouldBeWorse my address directly, or will we let a mod handle it?

 

[CouldBeWorse]

Woah, I get a free PS4. FUCK YEAH!

Should I PM you my address directly, or will we let a mod handle it?

SPE gets it.

Now find my actual post(s). I'll wait patiently.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

SPE gets it.

Now find my actual post(s). I'll wait patiently.

Aw, and I thought I was getting a free PS4. Now I'm sad.

I should know better than to look at a post from SPE without clicking the link first to verify it. As trolls go, he's a clever one. His username is a part of the Cell processor but he's a pretty blatant MS fanboy. I should have known better.

Spoiler

I'm not sure what's worse here, that SPE trolled me so easily or that I was happy about getting a free console from GAF. Oh well.

 

[coldfoot]

Is he redeemed now?

Not. Even. Close.

"What is clear is that while first-party developers are pushing the Sony hardware to new graphical heights for this generation, third-party multi-format game-makers are still having issues replicating Xbox 360 performance. That we should see this from a developer as accomplished as Capcom, whose home market sales are so reliant on PS3, is both surprising and a touch disappointing."

vs.

"The thing is, running in that single tile of eDRAM, Square-Enix has almost limitless bandwidth and enormous levels of fill-rate at its disposal. So it is extremely disappointing to note that the alpha-to-coverage interlace-style effect on the characters' hair remains in the Xbox 360 game."

The language tells you all you need to know about Dick. A touch vs. extreme, hyping up the limitless possibilities with EDRAM without a single positive comment about the Cell. An article that completely and thoroughly rips into Square from start to finish for not optimizing for the 360 vs. literally 3 words "a touch disappointing" at the very end of the RE5 comparison. If you think those are equal, I have nothing further to discuss.

Your proof of their pro-360, anti-PS3 bias is a Face Off that spends 3 pages slating the rubbish 360 version, and categorically saying the original PS3 version is better.

I know you're just playing dumb for the sake of your argument, but let me make it clear:
DF Faceoff PS3 version is shit: Dick says it's because of the unlimited bandiwidth EDRAM and how 360 is superior and we shouldn't expect the PS3 version to keep up.
DF Faceoff 360 version is shit (like FF13): Dick says it's due to lazy devs and the 360 is a wonderful machine just not being utilized properly.

Reality 1 - Insanity 0

More like MS Marketing 1 - Reality 0.

 

[Truespeed]

Furthermore, he doesn't ever excuse an inferior PS3 port as merely a bad port the way he repeatedly tries to state the 360 port of FFXIII is a bad port in as many words.

That analysis was a classic. The indignation he leveled towards the FFXIII developers for their 360 port was repugnant. It's as if he knew, first hand, how the engine worked and was criticizing their competence for not delivering a port that surpassed the PS3 version. I don't think I've ever seen him lambaste the developers of a bad PS3 port for not rewiting their systems for the SPE's, using the SPE's more efficiently or re-structuring and redesigning their code and data to make it more compliant with Cell.

 

[jayu26]

Here

Again, you are alright SPE.

 

[CouldBeWorse]

Does he actually go by "Dick" or is that just your little childish jab? Google didn't help answer.

 

[GribbleGrunger]

Ok, I guess I'm finished with this thread. Hardly anything I'm reading now relates to the OP at all. Just a bunch of people jousting with their dicks.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Yeah, I've done my part in this thread too. Now that it's been established that Leadbetter has no credibility and a long history of fanboyism, the rest of this thread can be left to fanboys and paid shills. I'm out.

 

[Biker19]

Man, a eSRAM with only 32 MEGA BYTES. I highly doubt it can do something significant in terms of graphics.

Moreover, the industry will get rid of DDR3 as VRAM in a year or two. This will lead GDDR5 prices down and the industry using it as standard VRAM.

So Xbox One specs will seem dated after 2 years.

It could not only cause problems for Xbox One in future 3rd party multiplats (visually, etc.), but it'll be even worse for Wii U as well, since that system also uses DDR3 RAM for games, but only 1 GB is dedicated towards games while Microsoft will use at least 5 GB's of it towards games for Xbox One.

 

[CouldBeWorse]

Yeah, I've done my part in this thread too. Now that it's been established that Leadbetter has no credibility and a long history of fanboyism, the rest of this thread can be left to fanboys and paid shills. I'm out.

Of course you're out now after falsely attributing posts to me and not backing it up, even with a free PS4 on the line. It makes me question your credibility if the truth isn't important to you.

And how can you NOT see the irony of you constantly throwing around the "fanboy" term?

 

[TrueBlueHero]

Holy fuck, wat? This is quite possibly the most insane post in this entire thread. Which is a pretty major achievement.

You were claiming the DF were unreliable 360 fanboys - a point I refuted - and your proof of their pro-360, anti-PS3 bias is a Face Off that spends 3 pages slating the rubbish 360 version, and categorically saying the original PS3 version is better.

Jesus that is one hell of a biased article!

A simple code of practice for XOne trolling regarding positive news:
a) It's PR (on the other hand Sony PR doesn't exist it's all FACT because Cerny said so)
b) It's MS paying someone (of course Sony isn't).
c) The news source must be biased (have always been Xbox fanboys - see LINK) CHECK
c) Even IF there's some positive news it's irrelevant because...
... MS is the devil and MUST be punished for their (DRM/Kinect) sins for all eternity (that Sony forced people into Blu-Ray is a totally different thing)
... the NSA will spy on you via direct Kinect stream regardless (I'm now preparing for the Zombie apocalpyse)
.. the PS4 is superior in EVERY regard and is without fault (and heals cancer by the way)