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PS4's memory subsystem has separate buses for CPU (20Gb/s) and GPU(176Gb/s)

benny_a

extra source of jiggaflops
So is this basically a way to eliminate or severely reduce the latency inherent to GDDR5 memory?
There is no inherent latency with GDDR5. (Well, comparatively speaking. Of course there is latency. On a fundamental level data has to travel which takes time.)

The difference in latency between DDR3 and GDDR5 on PC are because of the memory controllers and what kind of use case they are optimized for.
 

spwolf

Member
I got sidetracked by this as well on the Eurogamer article in OP:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-ps3-disc-vs-digital-delivery

PSN downloads being capped at 1.5MB or 12mbps. My connection tops out at that too which is why I've never experienced slowdown (and I hardly ever download anything). What I'm worried about is my download speed not being enough, and having the game stop or something, essentially buffering, because I caught up with the download. Hopefully GAF's man crush Cerny will explain soon?

dude, they are talking about their download speed, not overall.

As much as i know, Sony uses Amazon S3 for CDN. So it depends on how close you are to their servers... my downloads always run at full speed.
 

Demon Ice

Banned
There is no inherent latency with GDDR5. (Well, comparatively speaking. Of course there is latency. On a fundamental level it's physics and c is a factor.)

The difference in latency between DDR3 and GDDR5 on PC are because of the memory controllers and what kind of use case they are optimized for.

Ah ok. So then this is basically separate ways for the CPU and GPU to both access the memory without having to go through the same bus?

Sorry for the noobish questions, I thought I was decent with tech but this has gone way over my head.
 

Taiser

Member
not really news ...
Lawd Cerny explained it months ago:

Cerny said, pointing to the 8GB of GDDR5 RAM that's fully addressable by both the CPU and GPU. "If [a PC] had 8 gigabytes of memory on it, the CPU or GPU could only share about 1 percent of that memory on any given frame. That's simply a limit imposed by the speed of the PCIe. So, yes, there is substantial benefit to having a unified architecture on PS4, and it's a very straightforward benefit that you get even on your first day of coding with the system."

According to Cerny, PS4 addresses the hiccups that can come from the communication between CPU, GPU, and RAM in a traditional PC. "A typical PC GPU has two buses," Cerny told Gamasutra in a very detailed technical write-up. "There's a bus the GPU uses to access VRAM, and there is a second bus that goes over the PCI Express that the GPU uses to access system memory. But whichever bus is used, the internal caches of the GPU become a significant barrier to CPU/GPU communication--any time the GPU wants to read information the CPU wrote, or the GPU wants to write information so that the CPU can see it, time-consuming flushes of the GPU internal caches are required."

PS4 addresses these concerns by adding another bus to the GPU "that allows it to read directly from system memory or write directly to system memory, bypassing its own L1 and L2 caches." The end result is that it removes synchronization issues between the CPU and GPU. "We can pass almost 20 gigabytes a second down that bus," Cerny said, pointing out that it's "larger than the PCIe on most PCs!"
 

GameSeeker

Member
Not to support who you quoted, but it does seem like they won't be utilizing all the uniqueness of the PS4 setup in order to preserve fidelity across all platforms. Anything they can share among the two systems I'm sure they'll capitalize on.

People still seemed to be confused about the PS4 somehow sharing code with the Xbone and multi-platform titles trying to keep things even between the two platforms. What we have learned from this article is that this is not true.

I made a simple diagram to explain things:

nVbhiM4.jpg


While the article is about The Crew from Ubisoft, it's highly likely the same process is being used for other Ubisoft titles: Assasin's Creed 4: Black Flag , Watchdogs, The Division, etc. Similarly, we know EA is using the PC platform as the lead platform for Battlefield 4 & NFS. Having 3rd party developers follow this process is good news for PC gamers, PS4 gamers and Xbone gamers.
 
To pry a bit...

Do we know if actual numbers were used in the question, or was the interviewer prefacing the question for the reader?

Either way, I still believe the KZ slide, as it was on the money with CPU reserve.

The problem is that maybe the Killzone slides were misinterpreted. The Killzone presentation was based on early code running on apha kits and not on final PS4 hardware. Thus, it's possible that on the alpha dev kits only 6 cores where available because 2 of them were emulating the dedicated audio/video hw of the PS4.

http://www.edge-online.com/features/killzone-shadow-fall-and-the-power-of-playstation-4/

Guerrilla Games said:
“Animation networking quality was much higher, I think it’s just basically been proven that the amount of time it takes AI programmers to get their code up and running in parallel is so much easier that it just enables us to do much more. Of course we were optimising towards 30fps, making sure we didn’t drop a frame – or that we dropped a few frames but not very many – basically just making sure it ran smooth. And this is a launch title, we’ve just got new hardware and we weren’t using some of the hardware acceleration for stuff like audio at the time we did the demo, which we have now done. So I think there’s a lot more left in the system.”
 

miso_Jeff

Banned
Eurogamer has an interesting article on the process of porting Ubisoft racer The Crew from PC to PS4. In it, developers of the PS4 version speak in detail about the porting process. It's a fascinating read:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-how-the-crew-was-ported-to-playstation-4

What caught my eye was the mention of two separate system buses, one for the GPU and one for the CPU. While the GPU bus has the full bandwidth of 176GB/s, the CPU one is 20Gb/s. Also, according to the devs, allocating data correctly between the CPU and GPU bus is extremely important in order to achieve good performance.





So I'd like the opinion of people far more knowledgable than me in matters of technology as to what this means. If the memory pool is unified (which we know it is) but the buses are separate and of different speeds, is the memory subsystem truly unified?

Well, I don't think there's a CPU/GPU out there that has the same size "bus" (my guess). I didn't think this news was anything "new" these specs have been out for awhile now, right? The different "bus" goes for both the PS4 & X-1.
 

velociraptor

Junior Member
People still seemed to be confused about the PS4 somehow sharing code with the Xbone and multi-platform titles trying to keep things even between the two platforms. What we have learned from this article is that this is not true.

I made a simple diagram to explain things:

nVbhiM4.jpg


While the article is about The Crew from Ubisoft, it's highly likely the same process is being used for other Ubisoft titles: Assasin's Creed 4: Black Flag , Watchdogs, The Division, etc. Similarly, we know EA is using the PC platform as the lead platform for Battlefield 4 & NFS. Having 3rd party developers follow this process is good news for PC gamers, PS4 gamers and Xbone gamers.
Interesting. And what is this knowledge based upon? Are Ubisoft really coding their games separately based upon the relative strengths of each console? I will be mighty impressed if that is the case.
 
Interesting. And what is this knowledge based upon? Are Ubisoft really coding their games separately based upon the relative strengths of each console? I will be mighty impressed if that is the case.
That's what the article is saying... But DF suspects the PC and xbone versions are being developed by the same team that is doing the Pc version.
 
What is the bus width from SoC to the 8 GB of GDDR5?

256 bit.

BTW, you can tell bus width by number of memory chips. Each chip is 32 bits. So 256 bit equal 8 memory chips (8x32) or 16 memory chips in clamshell mode (half installed on back of board and share bus with other 8 chips). PS4 has 16 4Gbit memory modules.
 

Omeyocan

Member
One of my friends who was working for a big publisher (I won't tell which it is) told me recently that the OS memory footprint for the PS4 is 3GB. Same as Xbox One.
 
Interesting. And what is this knowledge based upon? Are Ubisoft really coding their games separately based upon the relative strengths of each console? I will be mighty impressed if that is the case.

I don't think that's what it's saying. It's saying that for "the crew" at least, the PC is going to be the lead platform, and will be initially coded to its strengths. It happens that the PC is very similar in architecture to these consoles, so there won't really be any compromises when porting from PC to PS4, or PC to Xbox.

What they're NOT going to do for the crew is Port from PC to PS4 to Xbox, which would cause all kinds of problems.

This is all well and good, but what happens when Ubi makes a console exclusive game? Lets say- Just Dance 5. It's unlikely that game is getting a PC port.

in that case, Ubi WILL have to pick a lead platform based on marketshare, and port to the lesser platform. the alternative is building two separate versions from scratch which isn't at all cost effective.
 

Locuza

Member
Not really. The GPU architecture itself is already outdated.
In which point? The µ-architecture is up-to-date.
There is only a big power-gap between the PS4 GPU and the High-End PC GPUs.
When Volcanic Islands really arrives at the end of this year, than the PS4 GPU might be missing some interesting enhancements.

And how does this compare to the Xbox360 architecture?
http://www.abload.de/img/slide-33-102489int.jpg

Left: Xbox 360 like
Right: PS4 like

The Xbox 360 has one physical memory, but on a logical level the system still seperate the memory allocation, which leads to the fact that data is still copied between GPU and CPU.

What is the bus width from SoC to the 8 GB of GDDR5?
256-Bit.
 
One of my friends who was working for a big publisher (I won't tell which it is) told me recently that the OS memory footprint for the PS4 is 3GB. Same as Xbox One.

3GB of GDDR5 for a FreeBSD OS? That makes no sense at all. It's actually a huge waste. I don't believe this at all.
 
One of my friends who was working for a big publisher (I won't tell which it is) told me recently that the OS memory footprint for the PS4 is 3GB. Same as Xbox One.

So the purported OS footprint tripled since the time they decided to double the RAM from 4GB to 8GB?

Sure.
 
Not really. The GPU architecture itself is already outdated. What makes these systems over come that is how things are designed and reconfigured specifically for developing video games.

Sony has taken a lot of care to give this system a lot of growing room in terms of developing at an extremely optimized degree. This is how it will keep up with superior PC and off the shelf architecture. But the GPU in and of itself is not g0d-liek.

The GPU is not outdated at all yet. It may be out powered by the PC top level GPUs, but the architecture itself is still fresh GCN+ advancements. The GPU architecture is better than what AMD has out right now thanks to the ACE customizations added in.

The GPU is definitely not a Titan, but it's extremely capable and a vast vast improvement over the current GPU in the 360.
 
One of my friends who was working for a big publisher (I won't tell which it is) told me recently that the OS memory footprint for the PS4 is 3GB. Same as Xbox One.
I'd be surprised if this was true...

The PS4 only had 4GB of memory at a time so I would find it strange that Sony managed to increase the OS footprint to 3GB...
 

RoboPlato

I'd be in the dick
I like the part where they kinda say that they could be doing a lot more with the PS4, but won't because it's multiplatform so they will just do a little more.

Next gen will be interesting.
I read it more that they wouldn't have the time to take full advantage of it but they will still get better results.
 
One of my friends who was working for a big publisher (I won't tell which it is) told me recently that the OS memory footprint for the PS4 is 3GB. Same as Xbox One.
Probably makes sense if Sony doesn't want to get caught flat footed again with OS improvements like they were last gen.
 

DonMigs85

Member
In terms of raw shader power, how does the PS4 GPU compare to the 1600 5-dimensional stream processors on the old Radeon HD 5870?
 

CREMSteve

Member
dude, they are talking about their download speed, not overall.

As much as i know, Sony uses Amazon S3 for CDN. So it depends on how close you are to their servers... my downloads always run at full speed.

I get rocking good speeds on PSN. But I've got a 50/15 fiber connection.
 

Donnie

Member
The cpu has to go through the gpu to acess ram. So its actually 176 minus 20 = 156 I belive

You're more or less correct. The memory chips themselves have a combined bandwidth of 176GB/s. No amount of separate external buses can increase that bandwidth. So as you say it's 176GB/s total bandwidth available and if you're using the full 20GB/s capacity of the CPU bus then it becomes 156GB/s for the GPU and 20GB/s for the CPU. This certainly isn't anything unusual either, every console out there has a separate bus for GPU and CPU.
 

TheCloser

Banned
One of my friends who was working for a big publisher (I won't tell which it is) told me recently that the OS memory footprint for the PS4 is 3GB. Same as Xbox One.

LOL, very much bs. It makes no sense what so ever and would be a glorious waste of memory.
 
Probably makes sense if Sony doesn't want to get caught flat footed again with OS improvements like they were last gen.

WTF is going on in this thread.

In terms of raw shader power, how does the PS4 GPU compare to the 1600 5-dimensional stream processors on the old Radeon HD 5870?

They changed their structure greatly from 5xxx to 6xxx with GCN. The SPs in that case aren't created equal. GCN is better suited for modern GPU workloads. PS4 has 1120 shaders for reference. The 5870 is capable of 2.7 TF (multiply + add), but a 7850 can handily beat it in any game with "less" theoretical TF at 1.76.
 

Locuza

Member
In terms of raw shader power, how does the PS4 GPU compare to the 1600 5-dimensional stream processors on the old Radeon HD 5870?

5870 = 2,72 TFLOPs
PS4 GPU = 1.84 TFLOPs

However, thx to the GCN µ-architecture the PS4 GPU is faster.
The Radeon HD 7850 with 1,76 TF is around 10% faster than the 5870.
But this only counts for the rendering power, in compute tasks the GCN outperform the old VLIW5 architecture.
 

Raist

Banned
One of my friends who was working for a big publisher (I won't tell which it is) told me recently that the OS memory footprint for the PS4 is 3GB. Same as Xbox One.

Is your friend Jack McBeehess? I'm friends with him as well. He told me the next Smash is not just Wii U / 3DS but iOS and Ouya as well.
 

Donnie

Member
No he isn't the CPU doesn't need to go through the GPU to access the GDDR5.


Did you bother to read my post?, or didn't you get passed the snippet you quoted? He's correct in that the 20GB/s isn't in addition to the 176GB/s. Thats why I said more or less correct rather than just correct.
 
Did you bother to read my post?, or didn't you get passed the snippet you quoted? He's correct in that the 20GB/s isn't in addition to the 176GB/s. Thats why I said more or less correct rather than just correct.

Because the quoted post is a backwards way of looking at it. There shouldn't be any subtracting of numbers from the 176 GB/s. There's only one way in and out of the APU, and that's 176 GB/s. How that bandwidth is divided up internally is academic. The Xbone has the same structure-- one unified path in and out of the APU. How it's divided up on there between CPU, GPU, ESRAM blah blah is academic. There shouldn't be any adding or subtracting of numbers.

You should only add if your internal busses can read/write from each other while you're pulling down that full 176/8x through your unified memory interface simultaneously. Otherwise you're playing number games.
 

AgentP

Thinks mods influence posters politics. Promoted to QAnon Editor.
Did you bother to read my post?, or didn't you get passed the snippet you quoted? He's correct in that the 20GB/s isn't in addition to the 176GB/s. Thats why I said more or less correct rather than just correct.

I read it, don't let him think his FUD is correct, be explicit. His premise was wrong, the rest is self evident, of course you can't count the same bandwidth more than once.
 

Donnie

Member
Because the quoted post is a backwards way of looking at it. There shouldn't be any subtracting of numbers from the 176 GB/s. There's only one way in and out of the APU, and that's 176 GB/s. How that bandwidth is divided up internally is academic. The Xbone has the same structure-- one unified path in and out of the APU. How it's divided up on there between CPU, GPU, ESRAM blah blah is academic. There shouldn't be any adding or subtracting of numbers.

You should only add if your internal busses can read/write from each other while you're pulling down that full 176/8x through your unified memory interface simultaneously. Otherwise you're playing number games.

To be honest I wasnt really bothered about exactly what he said. He was just the first person to mention that the CPU having it's own 20GB/s bus doesn't equate to 196GB/s. I saw people mentioning 196GB/s so I thought I'd back up that specific point but with the correct reason behind it.
 

TheD

The Detective
This has been known for months and does not indicate an upgrade at all!


What the PS4 has is a memory controller that is connected to the main RAM (at 176 GB/s), that then has buses to both the CPU and GPU, the bandwidth of the bus from the controller to the GPU is up to the full speed of the memory (176 GB/s), the other bus from it to the CPU is limited to 20 GB/s.

It even says so in that diagram!
 
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