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[randiangamer]

I don't know why Albert and Major Nelson need to keep reminding us they have the smartest people or the smartest engineers around. Honestly this is the fourth or fifth time they have said it. Albert twice here, Major Nelson on Reddit, hell, Major Nelson said the exact same, nearly to the exact words, like seven years ago on his PS3 vs 360 blog post...


Its some unprovable comment they keep throwing out like the fact they have smart people work for them makes up any differences the systems may have in hardware. Why do they keep saying it? I feel its so dumb and isn't some check mark on the Xbox One spec sheet.

Guess what? Sony and Nintendo have some very smart people working for them too, but they don't keep saying it over and over....

Whats bad with saying that? I mean, when my boss tells in public that i ve done a great job, pushes my moral.

 

[Mercury Land-Snake]

It's an absolute waste of time arguing with Panello, he's going to push his company's box no matter what. That's what PR does.

I'm more interested in seeing the practical application of the power for both consoles. I'm especially curious how 3rd party titles look on both consoles and if there will be any advantages to PS4 SKU's, that's where the power difference will matter (or not). It will also be interesting to compare 1st party MS and Sony titles and see which one are more technically impressive.

All of this specs bickering doesn't solve anything and even if PS4 is more powerful than Xbox One, it means nothing if devs don't take advantage of it. Lets wait and see how this all plays out over the next few years.

 

[Curufinwe]

Is that intentionally misleading comparison a marketing standard when discussing these technologies? In other words, does everybody do it? Maybe thats what Albert or the fellow means by stating that you can add them.

If you add them together the 360 has higher bandwidth than the Xbone. That should tell you something.

 

[Dead Prince]

Somebody please tell me this thread isn't this long because people are arguing about dual GPUs. Please?

My Technical Fellow says no.

 

[ElTorro]

But I still don't know anything more about whether you can add bandwidths [...]

That's pretty easy: you can add bandwidths as you can add the maximum amount of cars that can drive on a road during an hour. You can compare the effectiveness of two different roads by comparing the amount of cars that they can bring from Las Vegas to Los Angeles within that hour and without provoking a traffic jam.

But if both roads have a junction, one way to Los Angeles Downtown and the other to Hollywood, and only one road maintains the number of lanes on both individual off-branching lanes while the other road splits the lanes, then one road has a problem if all cars want to go to Hollywood, the other has not. The total amount of cars per lane still stays the same though and can be summed up for both roads.

But given your nickname, I assume you already know such things.

 

[Micromegas]

The amount of spinning from Microsoft is just insane. I don't think I've ever seen a company try to discredit performance specs of another console, emphasize that it's all about the games and then go back to spinning their hardware specs. That's fine - if you want to make it all about the games then talk about your games, but don't try to bullshit us with heavily massaged PR driven theoretical hardware specs and metrics to make it seem the Xbox One is just as powerful as the PS4. You are only going to eat your words when the truth is revealed and the truth always comes out eventually. Don't play that game because you can't win. So just talk about your games because there isn't a damn thing you can do about the hardware you're stuck with.

They will say and do anything to turn things around.


EDIT: I want to say that a few months before the Xbox 360 was released, Major Nelson had a person on his podcast (I think was this Albert), and they were talking about how "whisper quiet" the 360 was, and "how it was a good citizen in the AV rack." Again, they have no credibility. They will say and do anything to spin things in their favor.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

I don't understand why Major and Albert are so dead set on proving the Xbox isn't weaker. Being weaker wasn't an issue for the PS2 or Wii so why not focus on other aspects.

 

[Devilgunman]

Alright, lets vote which scenario is more likely

a) MS "Technical Fellow" didn't know what he/she was talking about.
b) Albert didn't understand what his fellow was talking about.

 

[PSGames]

I don't know why Albert and Major Nelson need to keep reminding us they have the smartest people or the smartest engineers around. Honestly this is the fourth or fifth time they have said it. Albert twice here, Major Nelson on Reddit, hell, Major Nelson said the exact same, nearly to the exact words, like seven years ago on his PS3 vs 360 blog post...


Its some unprovable comment they keep throwing out like the fact they have smart people work for them makes up any differences the systems may have in hardware. Why do they keep saying it? I feel its so dumb and isn't some check mark on the Xbox One spec sheet.

Guess what? Sony and Nintendo have some very smart people working for them too, but they don't keep saying it over and over....

You bring up an interesting point. Back when the 360 and PS3 were revealed I remember plenty of people didn't want to believe that the 360 could go toe to toe with the PS3 let alone best it in any area because of the specs. It took countless multiplatform games running better on 360 for people to finally accept they were damn near equal. Can't wait to see if MS's official stance of barely any differences will hold true this time.

 

[NullPointer]

Somebody please tell me this thread isn't this long because people are arguing about dual GPUs. Please?

It's not. Not even close.

That's pretty easy: you can add bandwidths as you can add the maximum amount of cars that can drive on a road during an hour.

The whole idea of adding bandwidths seems beyond bizarre to me, but I could honestly see it being perfectly acceptable in the hall of circus mirrors known as PR and marketing circles. So at least we know MS does it - but are they the only ones?

Maybe they figure its not misleading if they're not the only ones who do it.

 

[Tallshortman]

IF there are noticeable differences at or near launch is Albert going to come back here to explain himself after this fierce defense or is this going to be a pretend this never happened sort of thing? I mean the hardware runs on much of the same exact architecture except the PS4 simply has a significant hardware advantage. Is Albert going to continue coming in here and make suggestions that the xbone is only slightly less capable or even possibly more powerful?

 

[StevieP]

IF there are noticeable differences at or near launch is Albert going to come back here to explain himself after this fierce defense or is this going to be a pretend this never happened sort of thing?

I am honestly surprised at how many people here care about hardware power.

 

[Fresh Face]

It's not. Not even close.

Thank you.

What is everyone arguing about? I'm kinda sorta busy, so I don't have time to go through it all.

 

[Jack_AG]

I am honestly surprised at how many people here care about hardware power.

Soooo... If you aren't interested... Why post? How does your comment facilitate clearing the air or add to either side of the debate? Thread whining is a no-no on GAF.

 

[beast786]

I am honestly surprised at how many people here care about hardware power.

Why shouldn't.?

 

[Quote]

Whats bad with saying that? I mean, when my boss tells in public that i ve done a great job, pushes my moral.

I don't think they're here to push their employees moral. They're here to push GAF. However that's working out.

 

[Albert Penello]

Oh, I'm sure I'm going to regret this.

Let me ask on the AMA. I think the team wanted to do something different. The people I'm talking about will be getting out there to give details.

I do want to point out, this original discussion started with me saying, "Games on both systems look great. Look at Forza, Rise, Dead Rising, etc. All next-gen, on par or better than anything out there. We believe this 50% number is overstated"

Then people said, "that's subjective, we want proof"

So I explain that we have people on the team who are very experienced optimizing tools and development for graphics (DirectX, etc.) because we are a SW company, and that we have balance in the system in other places that equalize the playing field.

Then it's said that was all hokum, you're just spinning, we want math and more detail to prove what you're saying.

So at THIS point - I go talk to someone. "Hey, you helped design our system. You're a sr. technical leader at Microsoft. You're sitting with 3rd party developers right now who are working on both systems. Can you give me some points to help explain why nobody is seeing this rumored 50% delta"

Then I publish the points, so now I have GAF telling me a developer working on our system is wrong, and that I should just let the games speak for themselves.

Which is where I started. And since my attempts to provide more direct lines of information aren't considered truthful, because I'm not the source.. then I agree we are back where we started.

I will ask two questions of the detractors, honest questions.

1. What piece of information would you want that I could provide that would convince you there is not a huge delta in performance?
2. If it comes out after we launch that the difference between 3rd party games is maybe single-digit FPS between the two platforms, will I get an apology or concession?

 

[FINALBOSS]

I am honestly surprised at how many people here care about hardware power.

People here care about FACTS.

And even then, have you EVER been around a new console generation before? Of course people care about power. People care about the effectiveness of ANY product they buy.

How is any of this surprising to you?

 

[benny_a]

Why shouldn't.?

Let me spoil the response:

Because then you would play on PC, you dummy.

Baseline for consoles don't push graphics, don't you realize that? It's all enthusiasts PCs.

 

[Dead Prince]

Thank you.

What is everyone arguing about? I'm kinda sorta busy, so I don't have time to go through it all.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=80951633&postcount=195

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=80962073&postcount=426

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=80967909&postcount=561

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=80976649&postcount=718

 

[Tallshortman]

I am honestly surprised at how many people here care about hardware power.

Why? This is a forum made up primarily of core gamers. Of course power is going to be very important to people.

 

[Ricky_R]

What an amusing thread.

I'm suspecting that Albert or any other MS rep will cease posting in GAF by order of the higher-ups. It's just not working on their favor.

 

[chadskin]

I am honestly surprised at how many people here care about hardware power.

I think it's less about caring but more about genuine interest which console has the beefier hardware from a technical point of view.

 

[artist]

Albert opened a can of worms, should've never entered such a discussion if he has to go ask someone else.

He pulled an Nvidia, opened a can of whoopass on self.

 

[Puppet Shadow]

Alright, lets vote which scenario is more likely

a) MS "Technical Fellow" didn't know what he/she was talking about.
b) Albert didn't understand what his fellow was talking about.

c) MS "Technical Fellow" didn't realize some people on Gaf actually know this stuff.

 

[Radec]

Can't wait took November 22nd so we can finally let the games do the talking.

You won't get much on launch games though.

 

[Jack_AG]

I don't think they're here to push their employees moral. They're here to engage with GAF, failing or not.

At this point I'm sure they just post to meet some sort of "engaging with the common rabble" quota they need to meet on a weekly basis. Nothing being "shared" seems to shed any kind of light on the debate and only serves to further obfuscate in an attempt to purposefully confuse the public, IMO.

I don't believe it is sincere.

 

[Fresh Face]

Oh, I'm sure I'm going to regret this.

Let me ask on the AMA. I think the team wanted to do something different. The people I'm talking about will be getting out there to give details.

I do want to point out, this original discussion started with me saying, "Games on both systems look great. Look at Forza, Rise, Dead Rising, etc. All next-gen, on par or better than anything out there. We believe this 50% number is overstated"

Then people said, "that's subjective, we want proof"

So I explain that we have people on the team who are very experienced optimizing tools and development for graphics (DirectX, etc.) because we are a SW company, and that we have balance in the system in other places that equalize the playing field.

Then it's said that was all hokum, you're just spinning, we want math and more detail to prove what you're saying.

So at THIS point - I go talk to someone. "Hey, you helped design our system. You're a sr. technical leader at Microsoft. You're sitting with 3rd party developers right now who are working on both systems. Can you give me some points to help explain why nobody is seeing this rumored 50% delta"

Then I publish the points, so now I have GAF telling me a developer working on our system is wrong, and that I should just let the games speak for themselves.

Which is where I started. And since my attempts to provide more direct lines of information aren't considered truthful, because I'm not the source.. then I agree we are back where we started.

I will ask two questions of the detractors, honest questions.

1. What piece of information would you want that I could provide that would convince you there is not a huge delta in performance?
2. If it comes out after we launch that the difference between 3rd party games is maybe single-digit FPS between the two platforms, will I get an apology or concession?

I doubt you'll get an apology. They will list other things like screen res and other stuff. It's like trying to stand on a bar of soap.

 

[Crisco]

Wait, people were taking that rumor seriously? Holy shit....

 

[LiquidMetal14]

This conversation is starting to feel like "for or against".

 

[Quote]

At this point I'm sure they just post to meet some sort of "engaging with the common rabble" quota they need to meet on a weekly basis. Nothing being "shared" seems to shed any kind of light on the debate and only serves to further obfuscate in an attempt to purposefully confuse the public, IMO.

I don't believe it is sincere.

Word

 

[Klocker]

The ESRAM is tiny compared to the amount of slow DDR3 RAM. So adding their bandwidths together and comparing to the bandwidth of the GDDR5 memory makes for an intentionally misleading comparison.

The way the esram will be used means that 32mb will be extremely useful even compared to larger pool of slower ram so that 32mb that is constantly dismissed here is not nearly as dismissible as I repeatedly hear it is.

That's why they are using it.

 

[CLEEK]

I don't understand why Major and Albert are so dead set on proving the Xbox isn't weaker. Being weaker wasn't an issue for the PS2 or Wii so why not focus on other aspects.

Because (as has been pointed out ONE BILLION TIMES before) the PS2 wasn't the least powerful at launch. It was absolutely cutting edge. The only reason the GC and Xbox had more grunt is they were released years later. At which point, the PS2 had an insurmountable lead. The Wii was sold on the back of motion controls, not it's GPU power.

The PS4 and One are launching head-to-head, which makes things a different ball game.A great deal of the positivity around the 360 this gen was in its better multi-plat games. So while tech specs don't really matter as they're always theoretical and open to opinion, better games most certainly do and are plain to see to all.

 

[Bowler]

You bring up an interesting point. Back when the 360 and PS3 were revealed I remember plenty of people didn't want to believe that the 360 could go toe to toe with the PS3 let alone best it in any area because of the specs. It took countless multiplatform games running better on 360 for people to finally accept they were damn near equal. Can't wait to see if MS's official stance of barely any differences will hold true this time.

True. But wasn't that because of a last ditch price saver when Sony went with the RSX?

 

[Bsigg12]

Oh, I'm sure I'm going to regret this.

Let me ask on the AMA. I think the team wanted to do something different. The people I'm talking about will be getting out there to give details.

I do want to point out, this original discussion started with me saying, "Games on both systems look great. Look at Forza, Rise, Dead Rising, etc. All next-gen, on par or better than anything out there. We believe this 50% number is overstated"

Then people said, "that's subjective, we want proof"

So I explain that we have people on the team who are very experienced optimizing tools and development for graphics (DirectX, etc.) because we are a SW company, and that we have balance in the system in other places that equalize the playing field.

Then it's said that was all hokum, you're just spinning, we want math and more detail to prove what you're saying.

So at THIS point - I go talk to someone. "Hey, you helped design our system. You're a sr. technical leader at Microsoft. You're sitting with 3rd party developers right now who are working on both systems. Can you give me some points to help explain why nobody is seeing this rumored 50% delta"

Then I publish the points, so now I have GAF telling me a developer working on our system is wrong, and that I should just let the games speak for themselves.

Which is where I started. And since my attempts to provide more direct lines of information aren't considered truthful, because I'm not the source.. then I agree we are back where we started.

I will ask two questions of the detractors, honest questions.

1. What piece of information would you want that I could provide that would convince you there is not a huge delta in performance?
2. If it comes out after we launch that the difference between 3rd party games is maybe single-digit FPS between the two platforms, will I get an apology or concession?

As it stands, most people want to know how the math works. Like the adding of RAM bandwidth or why is it 204Gb/s. Some people will chime in with specifics though.

Thanks for weathering the storm.

 

[FINALBOSS]

The way the esram will be used means that 32mb will be extremely useful even compared to larger pool of slower ram so that 32mb that is constantly dismissed here is not nearly as dismissible as I repeatedly hear it is.

That's why they are using it.

No one cares why they are using it.

It's still incredibly misleading and incorrect to add those 2 numbers together in comparison to the bandwith of an entire pool of unified 8GB GDDR5.

You bring up an interesting point. Back when the 360 and PS3 were revealed I remember plenty of people didn't want to believe that the 360 could go toe to toe with the PS3 let alone best it in any area because of the specs. It took countless multiplatform games running better on 360 for people to finally accept they were damn near equal. Can't wait to see if MS's official stance of barely any differences will hold true this time.

It's INCREDIBLY different this time around...people need to get this through their brains.

They are both on the same exact architecture. It's much easier to compare the 2.

 

[Tallshortman]

2. If it comes out after we launch that the difference between 3rd party games is maybe single-digit FPS between the two platforms, will I get an apology or concession?

Not necessarily a "detractor" but yeah sure, however are you also going to give an apology or concession if there is a noticeable difference in performance or graphical fidelity?

Anyways, you work for MS and are advocating for their box, why would people not be skeptical when there have been devs who have said there is a significant power difference? Of course people want to know the "math" and how it's working out in order to come to the conclusions you have posted here. That's just natural for people.

 

[LiquidSolid]

My laymen (read: I don't know shit) perspective:

Optimistic: Albert is right, anonymous GAF experts are full of shit/misunderstand.
Middling: Albert has some of his facts wrong, or is misstating them, but means the best.
Cynical: As a PR move for MS, you don't have to win the graphics debate as much as cast doubt and muddy the waters.

My gut (and/or ass) is somewhere between cynical and middling, even though the idea of designing for balance rather than raw power does conjure a certain elegance in my imagination.

But I still don't know anything more about whether you can add bandwidths or whether the One's chip does both reads and writes in the same cycle, as nobody seems to have credibly disputed either. I was kind of hoping those were two easilyfalsifiable statements if they were truly false.

Consider me cynical. There's no possible way Albert's just posting these figures and comparisons on a whim, Microsoft's PR department has their fingers over all these posts.

Is that intentionally misleading comparison a marketing standard when discussing these technologies? In other words, does everybody do it? Maybe thats what Albert or the fellow means by stating that you can add them.

Microsoft used the same bullshit math with the 360 but that's the only other time I've seen it being used.

 

[NullPointer]

I doubt you'll get an apology. They will list other things like screen res and other stuff. It's like trying to stand on a bar of soap.

Crow is served pretty often around here, and people's vehement arguments are all stored and searchable, able to be retrieved at just the right moment as needed.

All things considered though, you don't need apologies when you can just show the results alongside opposing quotes.

 

[Klocker]

You're sitting with 3rd party developers right now who are working on both systems. Can you give me some points to help explain why nobody is seeing this rumored 50% delta"

This is the part that people seem to be missing here

 

[Jack_AG]

Oh, I'm sure I'm going to regret this.

Let me ask on the AMA. I think the team wanted to do something different. The people I'm talking about will be getting out there to give details.

I do want to point out, this original discussion started with me saying, "Games on both systems look great. Look at Forza, Rise, Dead Rising, etc. All next-gen, on par or better than anything out there. We believe this 50% number is overstated"

Then people said, "that's subjective, we want proof"

So I explain that we have people on the team who are very experienced optimizing tools and development for graphics (DirectX, etc.) because we are a SW company, and that we have balance in the system in other places that equalize the playing field.

Then it's said that was all hokum, you're just spinning, we want math and more detail to prove what you're saying.

So at THIS point - I go talk to someone. "Hey, you helped design our system. You're a sr. technical leader at Microsoft. You're sitting with 3rd party developers right now who are working on both systems. Can you give me some points to help explain why nobody is seeing this rumored 50% delta"

Then I publish the points, so now I have GAF telling me a developer working on our system is wrong, and that I should just let the games speak for themselves.

Which is where I started. And since my attempts to provide more direct lines of information aren't considered truthful, because I'm not the source.. then I agree we are back where we started.

I will ask two questions of the detractors, honest questions.

1. What piece of information would you want that I could provide that would convince you there is not a huge delta in performance?
2. If it comes out after we launch that the difference between 3rd party games is maybe single-digit FPS between the two platforms, will I get an apology or concession?

1) Developer names. Force them to cough up info. Other 3rd party devs have gone on record to say the opposite of you. If you have them in your camp saying the contrary - then they can go on record, too. Until then - we still only have one side going on record in favor of PS4.
2) Dennis? Is that you?

 

[StevieP]

Soooo... If you aren't interested... Why post? How does your comment facilitate clearing the air or add to either side of the debate? Thread whining is a no-no on GAF.

Why shouldn't.?

People here care about FACTS.

And even then, have you EVER been around a new console generation before? Of course people care about power. People care about the effectiveness of ANY product they buy.

How is any of this surprising to you?

Why? This is a forum made up primarily of core gamers. Of course power is going to be very important to people.

I think it's less about caring but more about genuine interest which console has the beefier hardware from a technical point of view.

I was being facetious. Sorry that it came across so poorly in typing, as I guess it would. Of course people care. However, sometimes the tone is hypocritical when some of the same people who have posted so vociferously in this thread show up in other threads similar to these. I'm not thread whining at all. This thread has been entertainment from any and all perspectives.

Edit: Frankly, although Albert has clearly engaged in some number fudging, his big point of "the consoles are fairly close" makes sense if that statement is compared to any modern rig. It also doesn't change the *fact* that the PS4 is the stronger console in many respects, even though the One has a couple of advantages.

 

[artist]

I will ask two questions of the detractors, honest questions.

1. What piece of information would you want that I could provide that would convince you there is not a huge delta in performance?
2. If it comes out after we launch that the difference between 3rd party games is maybe single-digit FPS between the two platforms, will I get an apology or concession?

2. 30fps on Xbone and 39fps on PS4 would still be 30% deficit.

 

[TechnicPuppet]

You won't get much on launch games though.

Why wouldn't we? If the PS4 is easy to develop for, 50% more powerful and ahead in the tools provided to developers along with having very similar architecture to PCs and the XB1 what possible reason could there be for not seeing it at launch.

 

[McHuj]

Oh, I'm sure I'm going to regret this.

Let me ask on the AMA. I think the team wanted to do something different. The people I'm talking about will be getting out there to give details.

I do want to point out, this original discussion started with me saying, "Games on both systems look great. Look at Forza, Rise, Dead Rising, etc. All next-gen, on par or better than anything out there. We believe this 50% number is overstated"

Then people said, "that's subjective, we want proof"

So I explain that we have people on the team who are very experienced optimizing tools and development for graphics (DirectX, etc.) because we are a SW company, and that we have balance in the system in other places that equalize the playing field.

Then it's said that was all hokum, you're just spinning, we want math and more detail to prove what you're saying.

So at THIS point - I go talk to someone. "Hey, you helped design our system. You're a sr. technical leader at Microsoft. You're sitting with 3rd party developers right now who are working on both systems. Can you give me some points to help explain why nobody is seeing this rumored 50% delta"

Then I publish the points, so now I have GAF telling me a developer working on our system is wrong, and that I should just let the games speak for themselves.

Which is where I started. And since my attempts to provide more direct lines of information aren't considered truthful, because I'm not the source.. then I agree we are back where we started.

I will ask two questions of the detractors, honest questions.

1. What piece of information would you want that I could provide that would convince you there is not a huge delta in performance?
2. If it comes out after we launch that the difference between 3rd party games is maybe single-digit FPS between the two platforms, will I get an apology or concession?

I'm not a detractor, but can we get the exact calculation for the peak eSRAM bandwidth? Why is the peak not exactly 2X the ~109 GB/sec minimum. Honestly the peak number seems fishy and it wasn't even addressed at Hotchips.

 

[CambriaRising]

This conversation is starting to feel like "for or against".

It is becoming oddly similar, especially with that last bit.

 

[benny_a]

So at THIS point - I go talk to someone. "Hey, you helped design our system. You're a sr. technical leader at Microsoft. You're sitting with 3rd party developers right now who are working on both systems. Can you give me some points to help explain why nobody is seeing this rumored 50% delta"

What do you mean nobody? In this thread we've posted that somebody (= developers) have said there are differences.

Your Sr. Technical Leader doesn't trump independent developers or independent journalists when it comes to this question in the absence of multiplatform footage that can analyzed collaboratively by us.

I doubt you'll get an apology. They will list other things like screen res and other stuff. It's like trying to stand on a bar of soap.

Right. Screen resolution and other stuff doesn't matter. And here I thought that stuff mattered based on the last few years of Face-Offs discussed on GAF.

 

[ambar_hitman]

Well you guys are jumping the gun. He said performance differences are overstated, but didn't mention PS4. What if he was talking about WiiU and Xbone?

 

[Curufinwe]

This is the part that people seem to be missing here

So Chmielarz is back to being nobody again?

 

[Ricky_R]

I will ask two questions of the detractors, honest questions.

1. What piece of information would you want that I could provide that would convince you there is not a huge delta in performance?
2. If it comes out after we launch that the difference between 3rd party games is maybe single-digit FPS between the two platforms, will I get an apology or concession?

I'm not in this back and forth because 1) I don't know squat about hardware specs 2) I really don't care about it since I know the PS4 (which is the one I'm getting) will look good.

However, if you are right and the performance disparity turns out to be very little, I will apologize for those who won't have the balls or just don't care. Just so you can get the credit you deserve from as many people as possible.

Btw... I'll expect an apology or concession from you if your info turns out to be BS.