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[artist]

lol, excuse me as it's 4am here and I cant sleep. Here, better?

 

[ConteZero76]

I guess the joke was worse than I ever anticipated.

;_;

No, it's just me being a bit too asperger (serious).

 

[Log4Girlz]

Xbone is powerful enough. The power difference won't become real apparent until Sony 1st party titles come out.

 

[mrklaw]

Xbone is powerful enough..

agreed. It'll have some great games

The power difference won't become real apparent until Sony 1st party titles come out

we don't know, this is pure speculation. We've not seen many 3rd party games on xbox one, and we've seen none side by side with the PS4 versions.

They could be on par initially, or there could be an immediate and obvious difference - we simply won't know until November 22nd.

All of this is complicated by it being launch. Cross generation quick ports from PC during the launch window won't take advantage of either machines' strengths (thereby giving console warriors ammunition for defence purposes)

 

[eival]

AFAIK both systems require installations. Dem blu-rays is 2slo.

if thats true then their drive speeds are the next spec i want to know, cause that will define if installs will take significantly longer for either machine.

also whether the wireless version will have battery packs like the 360 did with a charge stand, i didnt mind the recharge packs for 360, but its gonna be a pain if the XB1 only takes actual batteries...id much rather just use a lighter wired controller

if the "PC" version of the Xbox One controller coming out in 2014, is wired and works with the console as well, would be a huge plus.

 

[Metalmurphy]

Xbone is powerful enough. The power difference won't become real apparent until Sony 1st party titles come out.

It'll be apparent on the very first multiplatform titles

 

[MercuryLS]

The math geek in me died a little at a line graph being used for a discreet series of data.

This. What the hell, that graph actually makes me a little angry.

 

[cyberheater]

lol, excuse me as it's 4am here and I cant sleep. Here, better?

Very good. But was does that have to do with Xbox One and PS4.

 

[EmptySpace]

Xbone is powerful enough. The power difference won't become real apparent until Sony 1st party titles come out.

as far as EmptySpace is concerned, driveclub already looks better than forza.

 

[nib95]

Very good. But was does that have to do with Xbox One and PS4.

Both consoles have GPU's that closely match up with the two he's compared. If anything, Tflops wise it's unfair to the PS4.

 

[turk3y]

I do think people are underselling what Kinect could do. In terms of 'core' games it certainly has left a bad taste though. I think VR is where it's going to be at in five years, and if you throw in Kinect/PS Eye with that then you may be onto something big. If Kinect is vastly superior, maybe that hardware 'bundle' suddenly seems better in this context.

Right now though, there's really nothing beyond PR that they can say about the disadvantage. For the types of games that the core audience is concerned with, Kinect is not worth a weaker and more expensive console. The scary thing for MS right now is that the higher price means it may also not be worth it for the people who would be interested in Kinect.

kinect and vr looks mighty cool tho

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6C01tyrhf0

perhaps the road to fortaleza is still on.

 

[PaulExcellent]

I had NO idea any of this happened until now.
Man, is the PS4 really that much stronger than the XOne?

EDIT: I'm reading through the thread, and I'm confused as FUCK.

 

[polyh3dron]

as far as EmptySpace is concerned, driveclub already looks better than forza.

as far as polyh3dron is concerned, 60FPS is very important for racing games.

 

[SolidChamp]

So has Major Nelson decided to comment on this in the thread?

This is really one hell of an uphill battle for the MS PR guys.

 

[cyberheater]

Both consoles have GPU's that closely match up with the two he's compared. If anything, Tflops wise it's unfair to the PS4.

Both are running at different clock speeds compared to Xbox One and PS4.
One of them is using different memory and memory buss width.

So no. That graph has completely irrelevant.

 

[idrinkalone]

So has Major Nelson decided to comment on this in the thread?

This is really one hell of an uphill battle for the MS PR guys.

How so? I'm curious? For gamers like me.. That play 3 games a year and want more than a pc. How is this bad? They won me over with the snapping and fantasy football.
You have to figure us goons in.

 

[Fox_Mulder]

We must not forget that the xbone probably has also an OS heavier

 

[womfalcs3]

Why is everyone forgetting the cloud when comparing the consoles? MS doesn't have 300.000 servers for nothing.

I would think remote computing will be useful for online content, but of course content that can be played offline will not be designed with it in mind.

 

[cyberheater]

How so? I'm curious? For gamers like me.. That play 3 games a year and want more than a pc. How is this bad? They won me over with the snapping and fantasy football.
You have to figure us goons in.

Which is fine an all but this thread isn't really about that.

 

[EmptySpace]

as far as polyh3dron is concerned, 60FPS is very important for racing games.

there are a ton (if not, more) racers that were 30 fps and played great.

 

[Brad Grenz]

if thats true then their drive speeds are the next spec i want to know, cause that will define if installs will take significantly longer for either machine.

also whether the wireless version will have battery packs like the 360 did with a charge stand, i didnt mind the recharge packs for 360, but its gonna be a pain if the XB1 only takes actual batteries...id much rather just use a lighter wired controller

if the "PC" version of the Xbox One controller coming out in 2014, is wired and works with the console as well, would be a huge plus.

Both have 6x Blu-ray drives but both let you play as they install in the background. The Xbox One controller takes AA batteries by default, or you can buy a play and charge kit, but it also has the option to use a standard mini-USB cable to use it as a wired controller on Xbox One or on PC (DualShock 4 does the same). There won't be a wired version of either for this reason.

 

[artist]

Both are running at different clock speeds compared to Xbox One and PS4.
One of them is using different memory and memory buss width.

So no. That graph has completely irrelevant.

lol, okay.

 

[EGM1966]

Very good. But was does that have to do with Xbox One and PS4.

The red bar is performance from the GPU closest in spec to what's in the PS4 and the green bar is the GPU closest to what's in XB1 if I'm reading it correctly (at the resolution's noted for each game noted).

 

[TAJ]

Why is everyone forgetting the cloud when comparing the consoles? MS doesn't have 300.000 servers for nothing.

It's amazing how the hardest of hardcore MS fans were hanging their hopes on latency in the RAM comparison, yet somehow don't think latency applies to the cloud.

 

[panda-zebra]

Xbone is powerful enough. The power difference won't become real apparent until Sony 1st party titles come out.

So day one then?

 

[ekim]

The red bar is performance from the GPU closest in spec to what's in the PS4 and the green bar is the GPU closest to what's in XB1 if I'm reading it correctly (at the resolution's noted for each game noted).

But these are no PCs. There is missing the APU architecture, coherent memory busses, ESram, Move Engines, Jaguar CPUs, GDDR5 as main memory... Too much different variables to be a good indicator of the final performance.

 

[cyberheater]

lol, okay.

For starters. The 7770 is clocked at 1000Mhz. That's a 20% faster then what's clocked in the PS4.

Now recalculate your graph and drop all the 7770 scores by 20% and lets see what it looks like.


LOL, okay.

 

[idrinkalone]

Which is fine an all but this thread isn't really about that.

i would hope that everyone getting an xbox knows that the ps4 has better specs on paper.

 

[Doc Evils]

So has Major Nelson decided to comment on this in the thread?

This is really one hell of an uphill battle for the MS PR guys.

Right now, it would be a very bad idea to get involved in this thread, because no spin can help anymore.

 

[cyberheater]

The red bar is performance from the GPU closest in spec to what's in the PS4 and the green bar is the GPU closest to what's in XB1 if I'm reading it correctly (at the resolution's noted for each game noted).

Nope. That supposition is based on the fact that they are a good performance match for GPU's in a Xbox One and a PS4 which is factually incorrect.

 

[nib95]

Both are running at different clock speeds compared to Xbox One and PS4.
One of them is using different memory and memory buss width.

So no. That graph has completely irrelevant.

That does not make it irrelevant. It is the closest or most accurate comparison that can be made from existing PC hardware to date.

Both the respective GPU's are the same architecture as their comparatives, and add to that Tflop count matches up almost perfectly (a little short of the PS4's with the 7850). They are as you said, far from exact, but you won't find a better like for like comparison in existing hardware/GPU's to date.

 

[TAJ]

The difference will be seen in launch window on any multiplat game that has framerate dips on Xbone, at the very least. Does anyone really think there won't be one of those?

 

[SenjutsuSage]

Apparently lowering the resolution may also not get parirty

This horrible comparison again. The Xbox One GPU is not a 7770, far from it.

The Xbox One GPU has two geometry engines, the same number of geometry engines as Pitcairn, Tahiti, Bonaire, and the PS4 GPU.

The 7770, which is Cape Verde, has 1 geometry engine. The Xbox One GPU and the PS4 GPU as a result of this have practically identical triangle performance, with the Xbox One having a slight advantage due to the GPU upclock, that is if the PS4 GPU still remains at 800MHZ. Not a big deal when comparing the PS4 and Xbox One, but I'm just saying this to point out how very different the GPU is from a 7770. This is no small difference.

The 7700 is limited to 72GB/s of bandwidth, the Xbox One easily has access to quite a bit more than that, easily twice that amount, potentially even more. Comparing the Xbox One to a 7770 is wildly flawed. Toss in the move engines that can do various kinds of copy operations that help save bandwidth, one of which can actually handle texture de-compression in place of either the GPU or the CPU, and you have even more potential performance that your typical 7770 simply isn't matching. I know people love that 7770 comparison, but it's a lot less accurate than people think. If you're looking at a 7770 for anything at all, consider that a 7770 in a console would perform even better than on the pc due to superior optimization. Now consider that the GPU inside the Xbox One is clearly better than a desktop 7770, and you have a GPU that will definitely, and easily, outperform whatever performance metrics people are comparing to in the form of a desktop 7770.

 

[TAJ]

Why are they rendering at 1,920x1,200 for the "PS4" sample?

 

[Finalizer]

For starters. The 7770 is clocked at 1000Mhz. That's a 20% faster then what's clocked in the PS4.

The 7770 is brought up usually because it closely matches the Xbone GPU in GFLOPs. Despite some overall differences, they have a roughly similar performance level.

Really, the graph is kinda handy as it shows a basic example of what the GPU difference might end up manifesting in multiplats. Obviously it isn't representative of the systems as a whole, but it works as a basic measure of GPU difference.

And, again, there's more to the multiplat thing than just horsepower difference.

 

[artist]

For starters. The 7770 is clocked at 1000Mhz. That's a 20% faster then what's clocked in the PS4.

Now recalculate your graph and drop all the 7770 scores by 20% and lets see what it looks like.


LOL, okay.

facepalm.

The grunt behind either of the cards I chose is the closest approximation we can have right now. Unless MS and Sony release some numbers or a devs gives us cold hard data, this is all you can use. Or if you prefer secret sauces, Penello stories, cloud powah or mathemagic then obviously thats your opinion.

Why are they rendering at 1,920x1,200 for the "PS4" sample?

Its because I chose techpowerup as their benchmarking suite of titles is quite large and recent and those are the only relevant resolutions they used. If anyone has 1080p vs 900p for both GPUs, I'd gladly create a new one.

 

[randiangamer]

 

[SenjutsuSage]

The 7770 is brought up usually because it closely matches the Xbone GPU in GFLOPs. Despite some differences, they have a roughly similar performance level.

Really, the graph is kinda handy as it shows a basic example of what the GPU difference might end up manifesting in multiplats. Obviously it isn't representative of the systems as a whole, but it works as a basic measure of GPU difference.

And, again, there's more to the multiplat thing than just horsepower difference.

They really don't, but I've already said that.

 

[cyberheater]

That does not make it irrelevant. It is the closest or most accurate comparison that can be made from existing PC hardware to date..

And that's where you make your mistake. Given that they have different clock speeds. Different bus widths. Different memory interfaces. Are custom designed silicon with custom busses etc.... all integrated into a custom design. Add in optimised GPU drivers and this makes this comparison completely and I mean completely irrelevant.

If the fantasy of these graphs gives your e-loins a hard on then good for you but it's simply not based on reality.

 

[nib95]

This horrible comparison again. The Xbox One GPU is not a 7770, far from it.

The Xbox One GPU has two geometry engines, the same number of geometry engines as Pitcairn, Tahiti, Bonaire, and the PS4 GPU.

The 7770, which is Cape Verde, has 1 geometry engine. The Xbox One GPU and the PS4 GPU as a result of this have practically identical triangle performance, with the Xbox One having a slight advantage due to the GPU upclock, that is if the PS4 GPU still remains at 800MHZ. Not a big deal, but I'm just saying this to point out how very different the GPU is from a 7770.

The 7700 is limited to 72GB/s of bandwidth, the Xbox One easily has access to quite a bit more than that, easily twice that amount, potentially even more. Comparing the Xbox One to a 7770 is wildly flawed. Toss in the move engines that can do various kinds of copy operations that help save bandwidth, one of which can actually handle texture de-compression in place of either the GPU or the CPU, and you have even more potential performance that your typical 7770 simply isn't matching. I know people love that 7770 comparison, but it's a lot less accurate than people think. If you're looking at a 7770 for anything at all, consider that a 7770 in a console would perform even better than on the pc due to superior optimization. Now consider that the GPU inside the Xbox One is clearly better than a desktop 7770, and you have a GPU that will definitely, and easily, outperform whatever performance metrics people are comparing to in the form of a desktop 7770.

I like how you only use this argument to defend the Xbox One. The exact same arguments and defences can be made for the PS4, perhaps even more since the 7850 stacks up worse comparative to the PS4 than the 7770 does the Xbox One, especially in straight flop count. Should be mentioned that the PC counterparts run faster in clock speed than both the console GPU's.

As far as PS4 vs Xbox One GPU wise, here's how it stacks up.

PS4: 1.84TF GPU ( 18 CUs)
PS4: 1152 Shaders
PS4: 72 Texture units
PS4: 32 ROPS
PS4: 8 ACE/64 queues
8gb GDDR5 @ 176gb/s

Verses

Xbone: 1.31 TF GPU (12 CUs)
Xbone: 768 Shaders
Xbone: 48 Texture units
Xbone: 16 ROPS
Xbone: 2 ACE/ 16 queues
8gb DDR3 @ 69gb/s+ 32MB ESRAM @109gb/s

 

[EmptySpace]

This horrible comparison again. The Xbox One GPU is not a 7770, far from it.

The Xbox One GPU has two geometry engines, the same number of geometry engines as Pitcairn, Tahiti, Bonaire, and the PS4 GPU.

The 7770, which is Cape Verde, has 1 geometry engine. The Xbox One GPU and the PS4 GPU as a result of this have practically identical triangle performance, with the Xbox One having a slight advantage due to the GPU upclock, that is if the PS4 GPU still remains at 800MHZ. Not a big deal when comparing the PS4 and Xbox One, but I'm just saying this to point out how very different the GPU is from a 7770. This is no small difference.

The 7700 is limited to 72GB/s of bandwidth, the Xbox One easily has access to quite a bit more than that, easily twice that amount, potentially even more. Comparing the Xbox One to a 7770 is wildly flawed. Toss in the move engines that can do various kinds of copy operations that help save bandwidth, one of which can actually handle texture de-compression in place of either the GPU or the CPU, and you have even more potential performance that your typical 7770 simply isn't matching. I know people love that 7770 comparison, but it's a lot less accurate than people think. If you're looking at a 7770 for anything at all, consider that a 7770 in a console would perform even better than on the pc due to superior optimization. Now consider that the GPU inside the Xbox One is clearly better than a desktop 7770, and you have a GPU that will definitely, and easily, outperform whatever performance metrics people are comparing to in the form of a desktop 7770.

it is great that senjutsusage has memorized every beyond3d post for the xbone by heart.

 

[idrinkalone]

facepalm.

The grunt behind either of the cards I chose is the closest approximation we can have right now. Unless MS and Sony release some numbers or a devs gives us cold hard data, this is all you can use. Or if you prefer secret sauces, Penello stories, cloud powah or mathemagic then obviously thats your opinion.


Its because I chose techpowerup as their benchmarking suite of titles is quite large and recent. If anyone has 1080p vs 900p for both GPUs, I'd gladly create a new one.

my 2 year old pc has better specs than both these "next gen" consoles. guess which one I am buying.

 

[Finalizer]

They really don't, but I've already said that.

It's why I said a basic measure - they don't give the full picture obviously, but it's something to illustrate some idea since we've got not much else to go on at the moment.

 

[SenjutsuSage]

The 7770 is brought up usually because it closely matches the Xbone GPU in GFLOPs. Despite some differences, they have a roughly similar performance level.

Really, the graph is kinda handy as it shows a basic example of what the GPU difference might end up manifesting in multiplats. Obviously it isn't representative of the systems as a whole, but it works as a basic measure of GPU difference.

And, again, there's more to the multiplat thing than just horsepower difference.

They really don't, but I've already said that.

facepalm.

The grunt behind either of the cards I chose is the closest approximation we can have right now. Unless MS and Sony release some numbers or a devs gives us cold hard data, this is all you can use. Or if you prefer secret sauces, Penello stories, cloud powah or mathemagic then obviously thats your opinion.

The 7790 Is the closest comparison to the Xbox One GPU, except it has two more CUs, and is clocked up to 1000MHZ, making it close to a 1.8 teraflop part, but it has the same number of rops, the same number of geometry engines, and it comes even closer to the Xbox One's bandwidth numbers than the 7770. The Xbox One GPU still has it easily beat for overall bandwidth, though.

It's why I said a basic measure - they don't give the full picture obviously, but it's something to illustrate a vague idea since we've got not much else to go on at the moment.

The 7790 is the closest approximation, because it's a lot more architecturally similar to the Xbox One GPU compared to a 7770. People are focusing on the gap between a 7850 and the 7770, and using that as a guide, but considering how the Xbox One GUP has a 7770 beat, it's obvious that the numbers would be even better for the Xbox One GPU by comparison. Plus it will benefit from console level optimizations. Even in the very edge article they refer to 20fps or so on 1600x900 before any optimizations whatsoever. The Xbox One being a system that has to be more carefully managed by developers, would obviously suffer more from lack of proper optimization, and the more powerful PS4 that is simpler to design for would be much better off in such an un-optimized scenario.

 

[artist]

This horrible comparison again. The Xbox One GPU is not a 7770, far from it.

The Xbox One GPU has two geometry engines, the same number of geometry engines as Pitcairn, Tahiti, Bonaire, and the PS4 GPU.

The 7770, which is Cape Verde, has 1 geometry engine. The Xbox One GPU and the PS4 GPU as a result of this have practically identical triangle performance, with the Xbox One having a slight advantage due to the GPU upclock, that is if the PS4 GPU still remains at 800MHZ. Not a big deal when comparing the PS4 and Xbox One, but I'm just saying this to point out how very different the GPU is from a 7770. This is no small difference.

The 7700 is limited to 72GB/s of bandwidth, the Xbox One easily has access to quite a bit more than that, easily twice that amount, potentially even more. Comparing the Xbox One to a 7770 is wildly flawed. Toss in the move engines that can do various kinds of copy operations that help save bandwidth, one of which can actually handle texture de-compression in place of either the GPU or the CPU, and you have even more potential performance that your typical 7770 simply isn't matching. I know people love that 7770 comparison, but it's a lot less accurate than people think. If you're looking at a 7770 for anything at all, consider that a 7770 in a console would perform even better than on the pc due to superior optimization. Now consider that the GPU inside the Xbox One is clearly better than a desktop 7770, and you have a GPU that will definitely, and easily, outperform whatever performance metrics people are comparing to in the form of a desktop 7770.

CTRL+F "move engines" = success

I'm disappointed you didnt link me to a vague Baumann post.

my 2 year old pc has better specs than both these "next gen" consoles. guess which one I am buying.

Wii U?

 

[nib95]

And that's where you make your mistake. Given that they have different clock speeds. Different bus widths. Different memory interfaces. Are custom designed silicon with custom busses etc.... all integrated into a custom design. Add in optimised GPU drivers and this makes this comparison completely and I mean completely irrelevant.

If the fantasy of these graphs gives your e-loins a hard on then good for you but it's simply not based on reality.

Captain obvious over here. They're not exact comparisons, just the best that can be done with existing GPU's, and still a good, but vague reference point.

Can you even name a better comparison between the console GPU's and PC GPU's?

They really don't, but I've already said that.

The 7790 Is the closest comparison to the Xbox One GPU, except it has two more CUs, and is clocked up to 1000MHZ, making it close to a 1.8 teraflop part, but it has the same number of rops, the same number of geometry engines, and it comes even closer to the Xbox One's bandwidth numbers than the 7770. The Xbox One GPU still has it easily beat for overall bandwidth, though.

Doesn't matter, the raw performance output is still considerably more with the 7790 (1.8 Tflops vs the 7770's/Xbox One's 1.3 Tflops), as such it is far more disingenuous to compare the Xbox One's GPU with a 7790 than a 7770. You're essentially raising the bar for diminishing returns and giving the Xbox One more leeway and benefit than otherwise true. That is, strictly comparing the GPU's.

 

[idrinkalone]

CTRL+F "move engines" = success

I'm disappointed you didnt link me to a vague Baumann post.

Wii U?

ding ding ding. and an xbox.

 

[something fishy]

it is such a shame they compromised their own specs, presumably to keep the cost down so they could wedge in an unwanted Kinect.. and then they charged more anyway.

this could be tolerated if the machine were 100 less than ps4 without Kinect.

as it stands this risks being dead within the year I fear. it's completely put me off even considering it.

 

[SenjutsuSage]

CTRL+F "move engines" = success

I'm disappointed you didnt link me to a vague Baumann post.

Wii U?

If you're discounting the move engines, then you know a lot less than I thought. The various copy operations and especially the dedicated texture decompression on one of the move engines is something that helps the GPU in ways that a 7770 doesn't benefit from. Texture decompression is either performed on the CPU, or can be done on the GPU through computation. You can act as if it doesn't matter, but you'd be wrong. It also does copy operations using notably less memory bandwidth than is the case for a 7770. But, as I said before, I'm done with the tech talk. All it does is go in circles.

Captain obvious over here. They're not exact comparisons, just the best that can be done with existing GPU's, and still a good, but vague reference point.

Can you even name a better comparison between the console GPU's and PC GPU's?



Doesn't matter, the raw performance output is still considerably more with the 7790 (1.8 Tflops vs the 7770's/Xbox One's 1.3 Tflops), as such it is far more disingenuous to compare the Xbox One's GPU with a 7790 than a 7770. You're essentially raising the bar for diminishing returns and giving the Xbox One more leeway and benefit than otherwise true. That is, strictly comparing the GPU's.

A 7770 is a more architecturally flawed comparison to the Xbox One GPU than a 7790 is because the 7770 lacks dual geometry engines, and the 7770's bandwidth is even lower than the 7790's. The Xbox One's bandwidth is quite a bit more than the 7790's.

 

[cyberheater]

Captain obvious over here. They're not exact comparisons, just the best that can be done with existing GPU's, and still a good, but vague reference point.

Can you even name a better comparison between the console GPU's and PC GPU's?



Doesn't matter, the raw performance output is still considerably more with the 7790, as such it is far more disingenuous to compare the Xbox One's GPU with a 7790 than a 7770. You're essentially raising the bar for diminishing returns and giving the Xbox One more leeway and benefit than otherwise true. That is, strictly comparing the GPU's.

If you're not comparing real hardware then why bother with PC GPU graphs at all.

Let me repeat. Those graphs are completely useless and in no way reflect the real world performance of Xbox One and PS4 for a huge list of legitimate reasons. So why be stupid and use them in the first place.

We know the PS4 GPU is more powerful. We'll find out soon enough just how fast when the multiplats start shipping.