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It's really troublesome how inclusive content is immune to criticism to so many

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R

Ryaaan14

Banned
I just finished watching this week's episode of Movie Fights by Screen Junkies on YT, and they happened to use an all female panel this week.

Before reading the comments I watched the full hour+ long episode and in my opinion is was a terrible mess. After I watched it and issued my dislike, I checked the comments section and it was full of "OMG ITS ALL WOMEN LET ME DISLIKE THIS, BEING 12 IS AWESOME".

I've seen this all over the place. Especially with the upcoming Ghostbusters movie. In my eyes this is a big problem and is sweeping legitimate criticism under the rug.

Do you think this will end up just being a swinging pendulum and work itself out after time or do you see this as something we'll just have to deal with going forward?

To clarify to some, I am explaining that you are taken to task for disliking things more if they involve women, minorities, etc.
 
A

AtomskEater

Member
Typically I see more posts the other way, where people assume female, minority, lgbt, etc main characters are only there because of the SJW cabal that is slowly eroding our rights to enjoy heterosexual white male characters.

There are people shitposting on both sides, definitely, but I have seen people take media that tries to or is claimed to be progressive to task. The recent PPG reboot is getting a lot of flack, the creators said they were going to address gender identity issues in an interview IIRC but the episode they did it in apparently didn't handle it well. I have seen no decrease in criticism, but if you're looking in the comments section instead of blogs or websites dedicated to producing thoughtful commentary, you're probably doin' it wrong.
 
A

Aureon

Please do not let me serve on a jury. I am actually a crazy person.
It's a kneejerk reaction to things being criticized because they're inclusive, which is a very real thing.

It'll pass.
 
E

echoshifting

Banned
I certainly hope it passes, but I'm not so sure. It's awfully easy to spew hate on the internet and that doesn't seem to be going away anytime soon. If anything these voices are getting louder or at least maintaining equilibrium.
 
W

War Peaceman

You're a big guy.
Aureon said:
It's a kneejerk reaction to things being criticized because they're inclusive, which is a very real thing.

It'll pass.
Click to expand...

Yup. If diversity becomes normalised then we can actually discuss the merits or problems with things more openly. One of many good reasons for diversity.
 
S

SoRuffShoNuff

Member
Yeah, I don't really care for Zootopia but I've seen enough nasty arguments arise from people voicing criticism about that movie that I pretty much steer clear of threads concerning that movie.
 
L

liquidtmd

Banned
People who are savvy enough will see the wood from the trees, and distinguish the content on its own merits from the usual internet bollocks.

Those that cant do this don't deserve it explaining to them. Its pointless.
 
M

MHWilliams

Member
Aureon said:
It's a kneejerk reaction to things being criticized because they're inclusive, which is a very real thing.

It'll pass.
Click to expand...

Indeed. As diversity becomes more normal, it's less of a problem.

Until then, your criticism needs to be on point. It's needs to be more than "This is bad! Why was this made?!" or you're going to get lumped in with the bad actors. Go the extra mile in your criticism and you won't have a problem.

Also, I took a look at the video in question and the comments. I'm not seeing a huge outpouring of what they're talking about, so I guess their issue is that it happens at all? That seems off.
 
K

Kenai

Member
It's probably something you'll have to deal with, just as the other side of the coin has to deal with people disliking it solely for being inclusive and have to go the extra mile to prove themselves. It sucks all around, but just expect to have to give the details on why you don't like it lest people assume the worst (assuming you care what they think).
 
P

partyphone

Banned
it's a huge problem here on GAF. like any time there's a new feminist frequency video much of the conversation is explaining basic feminist theory to people. and when anyone does have some legitimate criticism it's used as a wedge to invalidate FF's entire body of work.

I frankly don't know how it changes until our culture changes and whiny manbabies aren't as prevalent.
 
N

Not

Banned
I don't see a problem, to be honest. White men are just now having to deal with the needless overall dismissal of their points of view the same that every other group has for hundreds of years.

Your "inclusive content" is simply anything other than white men talking-- and the group that typically upsets the most is other white men.

The reason we hear about it or treat it like the most important issue is beacuse white men are the dominant social group. The reason GG and Ku Klux Klan aren't the ones being classified as "terrorists" and such is because they're largely Caucasian males.

You can criticize non-white men and all women giving their opinions all you want, but you don't get to complain when people now are able to cry foul for the first time in centuries.
 
P

partyphone

Banned
kaname-san said:
But it seems like they are becoming more prevalent no?
Click to expand...

I think they're making more noise as people push against the status quo. when privilege is attack it fights back pretty hard. I hope that change happens but we can't know for sure. and it may not happen in our lifetimes.
 
C

Cyan

Banned
MHWilliams said:
Until then, your criticism needs to be on point. It's needs to be more than "This is bad! Why was this made?!" or you're going to get lumped in with the bad actors. Go the extra mile in your criticism and you won't have a problem.
Click to expand...

Nailed it. I'd consider this analogous to, say, criticizing The Order 1886. If you say "ugh this sucked" you can expect responses that put in the same level of effort, and dismiss you with "oh here come the haters" or "ugh M$ fanboy" or whatever. Since there's no substance to your critique, responses don't need substance to be just as convincing. If you put some effort into your criticism... well, you'll still get some of those empty dismissive responses but they're going to be less successful.
 
O

old manatee

Banned
partyphone said:
it's a huge problem here on GAF. like any time there's a new feminist frequency video much of the conversation is explaining basic feminist theory to people. and when anyone does have some legitimate criticism it's used as a wedge to invalidate FF's entire body of work.

I frankly don't know how it changes until our culture changes and whiny manbabies aren't as prevalent.
Click to expand...

partyphone said:
I think they're making more noise as people push against the status quo. when privilege is attack it fights back pretty hard. I hope that change happens but we can't know for sure. and it may not happen in our lifetimes.
Click to expand...

I don't think that's what OP is talking about.
 
N

Not

Banned
I agree that all you need to do is clarify your criticism with well-thought-out, valid points. I'm super social justice-minded and I never have a problem if people are able to substantiate what they're saying with logic. Otherwise, yeah, unfortunately, people are going to think you're just a bigot. Sorry if that's "more work" or whatever, but in the end all it does is elevate the conversation.

CaptainAhab said:
I don't think that's what OP is talking about.
Click to expand...

I don't think people understood that the Youtube comments he was criticizing were supposed to be sarcastic.
 
M

Messofanego

Banned
As long as you don't bring up the gender or whatever personal thing that is irrelevant (which you didn't do in your comment on the video), and your criticism is based on the content, I don't think you need to worry.

Your criticism will be lost amongst the sea of misogyny for now, so until all female or equal gender representation hits more and more male-centric content and people get used to it, legit criticism will have to be pretty great to be paid attention to.
 
A

Aureon

Please do not let me serve on a jury. I am actually a crazy person.
MHWilliams said:
Indeed. As diversity becomes more normal, it's less of a problem.

Until then, your criticism needs to be on point. It's needs to be more than "This is bad! Why was this made?!" or you're going to get lumped in with the bad actors. Go the extra mile in your criticism and you won't have a problem.

Also, I took a look at the video in question and the comments. I'm not seeing a huge outpouring of what they're talking about, so I guess their issue is that it happens at all? That seems off.
Click to expand...

It's still a very touchy subject.
I distinctly remember posting a 6000-word comment on why i didn't like Daenerys' story arc, and most retorts were "You're just a sexist asshat".

There's a lot of people who take internet arguments really seriously, and have recently realized they can accuse the other party of being <sexist\racist\whatever> as a "trump card", even when it doesn't make sense.

But, eh. There's also a lot of other idiots who genuinely dislike things just because there's women\brown people\asian people\LGBT people in it, so i can see why it happens.

I think it doesn't actually happen that much, it just hurts a lot, because making well thought-out criticisms and getting shut down with vicarious attacks hurts.

partyphone said:
I think it's literally the same thing?

it's hard to criticize anything made by non-white/non-men without being lumped in regressives and reactionaries.

what do you think the OP is talking about?
Click to expand...

I think it's more about criticizing characters who are not white men.
Basically touching characters like Rey, Skyler, or Daenerys is guaranteed to get some people "You're just sexists anyway".
For the record, i love Rey, hate Skyler and Dany depends on arc
The people who are actually behind a show are far more invisible, and much less likely to be brought up. Viewers don't care if the writer is a woman or minority, in nigh all cases. (Producers tend to, though...)
 
M

Messofanego

Banned
Aureon said:
It's still a very touchy subject.
I distinctly remember posting a 6000-word comment on why i didn't like Daenerys' story arc, and most retorts were "You're just a sexist asshat".

There's a lot of people who take internet arguments really seriously, and have recently realized they can accuse the other party of being <sexist\racist\whatever> as a "trump card", even when it doesn't make sense.

But, eh. There's also a lot of other idiots who genuinely dislike things just because there's women\brown people\asian people\LGBT people in it, so i can see why it happens.

I think it doesn't actually happen that much, it just hurts a lot, because making well thought-out criticisms and getting shut down with vicarious attacks hurts.
Click to expand...
Maybe they didn't take the time to read a 6000(!)-word essay on disliking some character arc about a fantasy TV show. Those kind of retorts are dumb if they're incorrect, just brush them off.

If you can write 6000 words on some character arc, you must be amazing at essays for more educational things like university or research.
 
R

Ryaaan14

Banned
I added further clarification in the OP

Also, since it's a direct comparison, in other Movie Fights episodes, criticisms can actually be openly discussed amongst people who have issues. However in the recent episode, BECAUSE it's all women, criticisms are ignored and passed off as sexist
 
L

LosDaddie

Banned
Aureon said:
I think it's more about criticizing characters who are not white men.
Basically touching characters like Rey, Skyler, or Daenerys is guaranteed to get some people "You're just sexists anyway".
Click to expand...

This is definitely what happened in some of the TFA threads. Anyone who brought up that they thought Rey learned to use the Force a little too easily/quickly was accused of being sexist.
 
Surface of Me

Surface of Me

I'm not an NPC. And neither are we.
The people who dismiss legitimate criticism by lumping it in with reactionary knee jerks arent worth your time. They are no better than the knee jerkers themselves, in ny eyes.

Frankly though I dont really see many people do that, but the ones that do are very loud.


LosDaddie said:
This is definitely what happened in some of the TFA threads. Anyone who brought up that they thought Rey learned to use the Force a little too easily/quickly was accused of being sexist.
Click to expand...

Gramny threads got pretty ugly if 1989 was your album of the year.
 
M

MHWilliams

Member
Ryaaan14 said:
Also, since it's a direct comparison, in other Movie Fights episodes, criticisms can actually be openly discussed amongst people who have issues. However in the recent episode, BECAUSE it's all women, criticisms are ignored and passed off as sexist
Click to expand...

Again, not seeing a ton of that in the comments I browsed. Of course, I wasn't seeing a ton of legitimate criticism either. Most of it was of the "This sucks" variety.
 
T

TM94

Member
edit

I agree OP

People need to toughen up, bunch of crybabies.

Wonder if the usual suspects will roll through here and push their agenda
 
R

Ryaaan14

Banned
MHWilliams said:
Again, not seeing a ton of that in the comments I browsed. Of course, I wasn't seeing a ton of legitimate criticism either. Most of it was of the "This sucks" variety.
Click to expand...

The problem here is that if the creators of the show take dislikes and comments into account, they see the dislike ratio, and the comments driven towards "you all just didn't like this because of women" that receive the most upvotes/responses, and draw a parallel between the two.

It's a valid point that in this situation people should speak up about their concerns but in a regular episode, a dislike would have spoken for itself.
 
M

Messofanego

Banned
Ryaaan14 said:
The problem here is that if the creators of the show take dislikes and comments into account, they see the dislike ratio, and the comments driven towards "you all just didn't like this because of women" that receive the most upvotes/responses, and draw a parallel between the two.

It's a valid point that in this situation people should speak up about their concerns but in a regular episode, a dislike would have spoken for itself.
Click to expand...

What is the legitimate criticism that is being sweeped under the rug? I didn't see anything particularly detailed in the comments section.
 
M

MHWilliams

Member
Ryaaan14 said:
The problem here is that if the creators of the show take dislikes and comments into account, they see the dislike ratio, and the comments driven towards "you all just didn't like this because of women" that receive the most upvotes/responses, and draw a parallel between the two.

It's a valid point that in this situation people should speak up about their concerns but in a regular episode, a dislike would have spoken for itself.
Click to expand...

So your issue seems to be that they aren't reading your specific interpretation from a faceless like/dislike system? I'm not seeing the issue you're attempting to bring up in the OP, in that legitimate, well-thought criticism is impossible with inclusive content.

Here, I picked an early comment:

4KmUntV.png


What's being prevented here?
 
P

Platy

Member
OP, care to explain why this episode was a mess ?

Still didn't had time to watch it in full but the part I watched sounded like regular movie fights
 
J

John Kowalski

Banned
I think it's pretty easy to see people caching in easy points. Nonetheless even on gaf i've learned to take the short rebuttals of some more seriously than others', especially in these more sensitive subjects.
 
C

Cyan

Banned
Ryaaan14 said:
The problem here is that if the creators of the show take dislikes and comments into account, they see the dislike ratio, and the comments driven towards "you all just didn't like this because of women" that receive the most upvotes/responses, and draw a parallel between the two.

It's a valid point that in this situation people should speak up about their concerns but in a regular episode, a dislike would have spoken for itself.
Click to expand...

The problem is that a dislike or downvote or contentless negative response is an extremely lossy signal. What you are trying to communicate might be something like "hey I liked this episode but the sound mixing was really bad please fix" or "the panelists were great but they need better content to discuss" or "look I really disagreed with the central premise here and don't think you should do panels on this subject" or any number of other things. What they hear is "dislike."

In any of the above cases, you would be better served specifying what it was you didn't like. Otherwise you're leaving the creators to try to figure out on their own what it was that people didn't like and then solve it from there.

In this specific case, or similar ones, the dislike signal is plausibly going to be overwhelmed by people trying to send the message that they don't want all-female panels. That means if you try to send a different message using that same signal, it will be lost. This doesn't render the panel immune from criticism, it just means you need to use a different signal.
 
R

Ryaaan14

Banned
MHWilliams said:
So your issue seems to be that they aren't reading your specific interpretation from a faceless like/dislike system? I'm not seeing the issue you're attempting to bring up in the OP, in that legitimate, well-thought criticism is impossible with inclusive content.

Here, I picked an early comment:

4KmUntV.png


What's being prevented here?
Click to expand...

It's hard for me to not just repeat the last thing I said to you. I personally do leave comments from time to time (and I did make sure to leave one on that video too), but content creators don't really have the opportunity to read thousands of comments, they only see repeated comments or highly upvoted comments. This video isn't the easiest example because it's not the most widely watched show, it's only easy to compare to others because it's a fairly consistent show. In this particular episode not only was it a full panel of women, but the host and fact checker also were. The show is a bit iffy when guest fact checkers are on, and unfortunately for this episode not only was the fact checking poor, but the hosting was as well.

Now when you say "what is being prevented?" its not exactly a fair question because it's not being outright prevented, it's being drowned out by a completely unrelated issue. This is the same problem with Ghostbusters as I've mentioned.

Platy said:
OP, care to explain why this episode was a mess ?

Still didn't had time to watch it in full but the part I watched sounded like regular movie fights
Click to expand...

The show itself depends on judgment based on arguments. The host of this episode made several decisions based on her personal feelings opposed to the arguments. The fact checking was non-existent. And my biggest gripe was that the final game winning point was awarded without input from 2/3 judges, and frankly it was the wrong decision.
 
R

Raist

Banned
Not said:
I don't see a problem, to be honest. White men are just now having to deal with the needless overall dismissal of their points of view the same that every other group has for hundreds of years.
Click to expand...

You can't possibly seriously write this without ignoring a ridiculously large part of history either. Unless you truly believe that all "white men" never ran into such issues.

It's always been a result of power dynamics, which at some point in history and in some parts of the world turned into a white vs non-white thing. But you're making a sweeping generalization which is borderline a racist statement to be honest.
 
C

Cyan

Banned
Ryaaan14 said:
It's hard for me to not just repeat the last thing I said to you. I personally do leave comments from time to time (and I did make sure to leave one on that video too), but content creators don't really have the opportunity to read thousands of comments, they only see repeated comments or highly upvoted comments. This video isn't the easiest example because it's not the most widely watched show, it's only easy to compare to others because it's a fairly consistent show. In this particular episode not only was it a full panel of women, but the host and fact checker also were. The show is a bit iffy when guest fact checkers are on, and unfortunately for this episode not only was the fact checking poor, but the hosting was as well.

Now when you say "what is being prevented?" its not exactly a fair question because it's not being outright prevented, it's being drowned out by a completely unrelated issue. This is the same problem with Ghostbusters as I've mentioned.
Click to expand...

Ok, so it sounds like it's not so much an issue of being immune to criticism as a signal:noise problem. There's so much noise over something unrelated that your signal can't get through. I think (hope) that this is something that will become less of a problem over time as people get used to general inclusiveness and stop being noisy over it.
 
M

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
UltimaPooh said:
To take your example.

What is actually bad about the Ghostbusters movie teaser trailer?
Click to expand...
It wasn't funny, the jokes fell flat or were cringe-worthy. I say this as a disappointed feminist who was hoping the movie would be good but the trailer gave me zero incentive to go watch it.
 
P

Par Score

Member
Ryaaan14 said:
In my eyes this is a big problem and is sweeping legitimate criticism under the rug.
Click to expand...

Funny. In my eyes the big problem is all of the heinous sexism / racism / homophobia and other bigotry.

But I'm sure your "legitimate criticism" being ignored is a big deal too...

Ryaaan14 said:
The show itself depends on judgment based on arguments. The host of this episode made several decisions based on her personal feelings opposed to the arguments. The fact checking was non-existent. And my biggest gripe was that the final game winning point was awarded without input from 2/3 judges, and frankly it was the wrong decision.
Click to expand...

Oh wait, no, you just think their opinions were wrong somehow.

It's a debate about fucking hypothetical Spiderman reboot plots ffs. There is no wrong.
 
G

Garrett Hawke

Member
image.php


I think it's far more troublesome how any criticism of content that ISN'T inclusive is derided as censorship, anti free speech, pandering, pointless, etc.
TM94 said:
edit

I agree OP

People need to toughen up, bunch of crybabies.

Wonder if the usual suspects will roll through here and push their agenda
Click to expand...

Q8g55.gif

Not said:
I don't see a problem, to be honest. White men are just now having to deal with the needless overall dismissal of their points of view the same that every other group has for hundreds of years.

Your "inclusive content" is simply anything other than white men talking-- and the group that typically upsets the most is other white men.

The reason we hear about it or treat it like the most important issue is beacuse white men are the dominant social group. The reason GG and Ku Klux Klan aren't the ones being classified as "terrorists" and such is because they're largely Caucasian males.

You can criticize non-white men and all women giving their opinions all you want, but you don't get to complain when people now are able to cry foul for the first time in centuries.
Click to expand...
more eloquent than I could put it, perfect.
 
M

marrec

Banned
UltimaPooh said:
To take your example.

What is actually bad about the Ghostbusters movie teaser trailer?
Click to expand...

There are lots of things that look bad about Ghostbusters that can critiqued, but like MHW said it has to be on point.

OP:

If your criticism is specifically directed at something legitimate then the comments you mentioned aren't necessarily targeting your critique.

Also, the phenomena of downvoting content based on a bias against women being involved in it is real. Though I'm not sure being sarcastic about it in YouTube comments is the best way to deal with that.

Par Score said:
Funny. In my eyes the big problem is all of the heinous sexism / racism / homophobia and other bigotry.

But I'm sure your "legitimate criticism" being ignored is a big deal too...
Click to expand...

Don't be ridiculous, both problems can exist at the same time.
 
A

AstroLad

Hail to the KING baby
This is why I always qualify my (valid) criticisms of such work with my diversity "bona fides" -- grew up in a black neighborhood, lots of diverse friends, etc. Otherwise no one will take you seriously
 
R

Ryaaan14

Banned
Par Score said:
Oh wait, no, you just think their opinions were wrong somehow.

It's a debate about fucking hypothetical Spiderman reboot plots ffs. There is no wrong.
Click to expand...

No. If you actually watch the episode you can literally quantify that she didn't award points on the arguments. In a show of that nature there has to be objectivity to award points, and although some people may weigh points more or less than others, awarding a point because "I like ________ more" is not the way to do it.
 
G

Garrett Hawke

Member
marrec said:
Don't be ridiculous, both problems can exist at the same time.
Click to expand...
Can they, though? Racism, sexism and homophobia are so deeply rooted in our culture that it is incredibly difficult to separate legitimate criticism from criticism made with significant bias against marginalised groups, or criticism written solely because of the inclusion of marginalised groups - wherein the critic will try and find any and all small flaws with the piece of work and then amplify their importance in order to discredit the work as a whole, due to it's "PCness".

see: every episode of FemFreq ever, wherein if Anita makes a mistake it will be posted on 4chan and reddit for 2 weeks with a TotalBiscuit video about how Anita doesn't even know what a video game is because she misunderstood the meaning of that one line that one NPC in Fallout New Vegas said.
 
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