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[Platy]

The show itself depends on judgment based on arguments. The host of this episode made several decisions based on her personal feelings opposed to the arguments. The fact checking was non-existent. And my biggest gripe was that the final game winning point was awarded without input from 2/3 judges, and frankly it was the wrong decision.

So it is a mess because the judge that gives points that don't mater suck but the ideas and arguments, the everything that is made up, that is 90% of the video is good ?

That sounds like a good video to me ... Much better than any episode with Max Landis, for example =P

 

[Team Filler]

There does seem to be a lot more noise-to-signal ratio on this kind of stuff lately (or at least it seems that way to me). I'm hoping it diminishes to just the fringes as entertainment and the audiences around it become more inclusive.

This is why I always qualify my (valid) criticisms of such work with my diversity "bona fides" -- grew up in a black neighborhood, lots of diverse friends, etc. Otherwise no one will take you seriously

 

[kirblar]

Can they, though? Racism, sexism and homophobia are so deeply rooted in our culture that it is incredibly difficult to separate legitimate criticism from criticism made with significant bias against marginalised groups, or criticism written solely because of the inclusion of marginalised groups - wherein the critic will try and find any and all small flaws with the piece of work and then amplify their importance in order to discredit the work as a whole, due to it's "PCness".

It really isn't difficult at all if you actually listen to someone- they'll hang themselves eventually if there's a real issue. You do have to go the extra mile to make it explicitly clear what your issues are. (the FemFreq threads are the prime example of this.)

 

[marrec]

Can they, though? Racism, sexism and homophobia are so deeply rooted in our culture that it is incredibly difficult to separate legitimate criticism from criticism made with significant bias against marginalised groups, or criticism written solely because of the inclusion of marginalised groups - wherein the critic will try and find any and all small flaws with the piece of work and then amplify their importance in order to discredit the work as a whole, due to it's "PCness".

There will be a group of people who criticise just to tear down inclusive content, but if legitimate criticism is laid out in a considered way it shouldn't be ignored or lumped in with groups of illegitimate assholes.

Like, for example, the awful Ghostbusters trailers.

see: every episode of FemFreq ever, wherein if Anita makes a mistake it will be posted on 4chan and reddit for 2 weeks with a TotalBiscuit video about how Anita doesn't even know what a video game is because she misunderstood the meaning of that one line that one NPC in Fallout New Vegas said.

It should be easy to recognize legitimate criticism and separate it out from assholes. And making diversity content immune to criticism because we want to insulate it from assholes will only prove to make diversity content worse in the long run.

 

[SolidSnake9]

There are those who would use current agenda to silence criticism. Simply spouting things like "you're sexist" for criticising a women's viewpoint or "you're racist" for having concerns over migration.

However then again there are a lot of awful people out there. Hard situation.

 

[Garrett Hawke]

It really isn't difficult at all if you actually listen to someone- they'll hang themselves eventually if there's a real issue. You do have to go the extra mile to make it explicitly clear what your issues are. (the FemFreq threads are the prime example of this.)

There will be a group of people who criticise just to tear down inclusive content, but if legitimate criticism is laid out in a considered way it shouldn't be ignored or lumped in with groups of illegitimate assholes.

Like, for example, the awful Ghostbusters trailers.



It should be easy to recognize legitimate criticism and separate it out from assholes. And making diversity content immune to criticism because we want to insulate it from assholes will only prove to make diversity content worse in the long run.

I think it's the sheer volume of the opposite that makes this harder, though. I do see what you mean about legitimate criticism being more thought out and further explained, and while people who drive by comment or post like "looks shit" or "im so fed up of PC culture..." are easy to dismiss as not having legitimate criticism, you have YouTubers like Maddox who will make a long, seemingly well thought out video that isn't actually any better criticism than the drive by posts - it is the same complaints, just hidden behind some misdirection - purely because their panties are in a twist over some "PC SJW FEMINAZI!" content that they've seen.

 

[Ganzlinger]

Do you think this will end up just being a swinging pendulum and work itself out after time

God, I hope so

 

[Ryaaan14]

It should be easy to recognize legitimate criticism and separate it out from assholes. And making diversity content immune to criticism because we want to insulate it from assholes will only prove to make diversity content worse in the long run.

Yeah pretty much this. Stuff needs to be judged at face value more.

 

[marrec]

I think it's the sheer volume of the opposite that makes this harder, though. I do see what you mean about legitimate criticism being more thought out and further explained, and while people who drive by comment or post like "looks shit" or "im so fed up of PC culture..." are easy to dismiss as not having legitimate criticism, you have YouTubers like Maddox who will make a long, seemingly well thought out video that isn't actually any better criticism than the drive by posts - it is the same complaints, just hidden behind some misdirection - purely because their panties are in a twist over some "PC SJW FEMINAZI!" content that they've seen.

For sure, not all content that is described as "legitimate criticism" actually is. In these cases it's really just up to people who recognize this kind of content to point it out and respond appropriately. Also, most of this "faux" criticism is just a ridiculous as the "fuck women!" comments, if only longer and more convoluted.

We shouldn't let proper criticism go ignored though, it's supposed to be there to help make content better. Hence the need for FemFreq and her videos, not to tear stuff down, but to make future stuff better.

 

[Cipherr]

Only seen this once. When some of us were like "Ugh I don't like Skyler in Breaking Bad".

The "Oh you don't like her because shes a woman!" stuff that followed was loud and overbearing. Super shocking. That's the only time I can recall interaction with it though.

 

[kirblar]

Only seen this once. When some of us were like "Ugh I don't like Skyler in Breaking Bad".

The "Oh you don't like her because shes a woman!" stuff that followed was loud and overbearing. Super shocking. That's the only time I can recall interaction with it though.

Fun Police characters are always going to get crapped on by the audience- it's why they wrote out Raylan's ex on Justified rather than have the backlash happen to her.

I'm surprised there's not a TVTropes listing for this, actually, it's a concept that's worth getting out there as something to avoid in media.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

What did you actually write?

Without that the thread is just pointless conjecture

 

[Brakke]

Yeah this is definitely a thing. That new Ghostbusters is kind of an interesting case here. I think a lot of the let's-be-conspicuously-positive-about-this-movie angle comes from people who are agnostic about its actual quality, who are just interested in seeing a ladies cast get a shot at this kind of movie. Which is a legitimate feeling to have and I recognize that, even if it's not a feeling I have. If the number of sci-fi / adventure movies starring a cast of women who are good at their job is basically zero, then the one you do get to see ends up graded on a curve. So people get territorial about it because there's a sense of "why would you try to take even this away from us who have nothing".

It's tough because of the systemic angle. We might think that the reason movies like the new Ghostbusters are so rare is that men have historically been (or have historically been perceived to be) uninterested in stories about women. So to then see a man say he's uninterested in this story about women would be, naturally, frustrating. Women put up with stories about men all the time, and it seems that men are less willing to put up with stories about women.

Having said all this, the attitude still sucks and it sucks to get dismissed as simply sexist even if you're coming in from a place of good faith. Because people usually don't try to articulate this but just roll eyes at the sexist knucklehead oblivious to his privilege. Which is a fair response, I suppose; it's not really fair to expect people to respond to every flip dismissal with a detailed explanation about the virtues of privilege-checking in a world where many people have demonstrated their disinterest in / unwillingness to seriously engage with these politics.

* I barely know anything about the new Ghostbusters. For all I know, maybe it'll be good / funny. I'm just running with it as a basically-hypothetical example.

Only seen this once. When some of us were like "Ugh I don't like Skyler in Breaking Bad".

The "Oh you don't like her because shes a woman!" stuff that followed was loud and overbearing. Super shocking. That's the only time I can recall interaction with it though.

This happened a lot with The Force Awakens, too. Critiquing it got tagged with some "it's the same in the old movie, you're only bothered by it now because Rey's a girl and Finn is black" ish.

 

[Team Filler]

This happened a lot with The Force Awakens, too. Critiquing it got tagged with some "it's the same in the old movie, you're only bothered by it now because Rey's a girl and Finn is black" ish.

Yeah, this has been particularly noticeable with Finn and Rey. Dogwhistles and misogyny all day every day, apparently.

 

[MisterShine]

Much better than any episode with Max Landis, for example =P

Say what now? Landis is the best guest!

His pitch for an Alien:Cavemen movie was legit amazing.

Spoiler

Sorry to go off topic, I love movie fights.

 

[GamerJM]

Indeed. As diversity becomes more normal, it's less of a problem.

Until then, your criticism needs to be on point. It's needs to be more than "This is bad! Why was this made?!" or you're going to get lumped in with the bad actors. Go the extra mile in your criticism and you won't have a problem.

Also, I took a look at the video in question and the comments. I'm not seeing a huge outpouring of what they're talking about, so I guess their issue is that it happens at all? That seems off.

This.

Also I read the topic title as "exclusive," and thought this was going to be about how like....console exclusive games are immune to criticism from fanboys, or if there's like some weird breed of Netflix fanboys who do the same thing for Netflix-exclusive content since this is OT.

 

[Corpekata]

I'm really baffled a screenjunkies video is what prompted this.

 

[Platy]

Funny how one of the biggest complains about the new Powderpuff Girls is that the trans episode they made is REALLY shit in dealing with trans people =P

Say what now? Landis is the best guest!

His pitch for an Alien:Cavemen movie was legit amazing.

Spoiler

Sorry to go off topic, I love movie fights.

His pitches are awesome, but exactly like Kevin Smith, ONLY his pitches are good. His arguments defending his stuff makes Landis sounds SOO much like a spoiled kid ><

 

[Stallion Dan]

It's easier to just call someone sexist, racist etc than it is to defend something that is shit, so it isn't going away anytime ever.

 

[Exodust]

Terrible mess? Sounds like a Screenjunkies video, alright.

 

[Hackworth]

Typically I see more posts the other way, where people assume female, minority, lgbt, etc main characters are only there because of the SJW cabal that is slowly eroding our rights to enjoy heterosexual white male characters.

Yeah, I see more of this than the other thing.

 

[Not]

For sure, not all content that is described as "legitimate criticism" actually is. In these cases it's really just up to people who recognize this kind of content to point it out and respond appropriately. Also, most of this "faux" criticism is just a ridiculous as the "fuck women!" comments, if only longer and more convoluted.

This is a well-worded version of what I wanted to add. Kudos.

 

[Coreda]

There are those who would use current agenda to silence criticism. Simply spouting things like "you're sexist" for criticising a women's viewpoint or "you're racist" for having concerns over migration.

However then again there are a lot of awful people out there. Hard situation.

Wait, he was banned for this?

 

[Cyan]

Wait, he was banned for this?

No.