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'Stop Giving Evil Characters Brown Skin'

Kwame120

Banned
I don't think you should be grouping POCs and non-POCs together like that. Everyone has their own nuanced opinions.

Really we should be talking about people who give a fuck and don't give a fuck, and exclude POC from the conversation. If the discussion wad legitimate it shouldn't matter who was having the conversation.
This is an issue with the presentation of darker-skinned people in fiction. While you don't have to be a POC to have a valid opinion on the matter, it's absurd to suggest shutting them out of the conversation, or at least their opinion specifically as a POC, because they're the one's most affected by this issue.

Back on topic. I think the issue seems to have become incredibly specific. It's not about depicting people with dark skin, that'd okay, but it's not okay to darken someone's skin if they've been corrupted.

Well surely all evil characters have been corrupted in some way, just because we don't see the lighter, non corrupted form does that make it better? They've still been given the dark skin as a design choice to represent the corruption. Why is that any better?
Now in the second paragraph of the second fragment of your quote, you've made the assumption that there's a "lighter, non corrupted form" which existed in the first place, even if its not seen. That's not a valid assumption, as you can imagine a dark-skinned character doing something evil...and their skin colour not changing colour to reflect this. Unless you're implying that there's some external corruption force at work always, and even if this was the case, darkening of the skin need not be an indicator of it.

In other words, a "lighter and nicer" form does not exist by necessity, and must be presupposed, so you can create a villanous character that is always dark skinned, without running into the "darkening of skin" issue, as there's no reason that their skin wasn't always the colour that it is.

Essentially, the problem here must be stressed. In this thread, we're dealing with characters being given darkened skin to reflect a more evil version of them. Thus we have an issue of comparison - darker skin = more evil, which is both racist and colourist, due to applying negative stereotypes to a people simply because of the colour of their skin. There's no problem with having a dark-skinned villain who's always dark-skinned, as then their villainy is a feature of their personality - not their skin colour. Of course, you could run into a comparative problem here if dark-skinned characters were only, or overwhelmingly, villains - as then dark-skinned characters are more likely to be villains, and it's implicit that that's a feature of their race or colour, and you run into issues of colourism and racism again. The key point here is comparison, whether you have a change in skin colour, or an imbalance in representation.
 
I'm fucking crying
I wish you could see the tears flowing from my eyes

That's a reason why it's so prevalent, not a reason why taking that concept and applying it to darkening or lightening skin colour is appropriate.

I mean seriously, take a second to think about what it means to link darker skin colour to more evil. That line of thinking is how people were taught to rationalize the American slave trade, since black people were more afflicted by the curse of Abel and were therefore less human.
darth.jpg

41130_1241202436920.57res_500_280.jpg


Checkmate
 

Kwame120

Banned
darth.jpg

41130_1241202436920.57res_500_280.jpg


Checkmate
This is where the distinction between clothes and skin colour comes in. I can be a black guy who wears light colours, and someone else could be a white guy who wears dark colours. The meaning of colour in art does NOT need to extend to skin colour, and should not. No one here has a problem with villains wearing black clothing, and the heroes wearing white, the problem is when skin colour is used to reflect the nature of a character's character. And we're discussing serious matters here, "checkmate" isn't really appropriate.
 

FinalAres

Member
This is an issue with the presentation of darker-skinned people in fiction. While you don't have to be a POC to have a valid opinion on the matter, it's absurd to suggest shutting them out of the conversation, or at least their opinion specifically as a POC, because they're the one's most affected by this issue.
I wasn't suggesting shutting PoCs out of the conversation. I was suggesting it was hypocritical to be having a conversation on racism and yet tarring all non-PoCs that hold a certain view with the same negative brush, because of their race.

I really don't want to be that guy who says "well actually YOU'RE being racist" because i understand that that is hugely offensive and undermines real racism. So I'll just point it out as highly ironic, which it is.
 

RPGam3r

Member
I'm sorry for wasting my time if you think a non-sequitur refutes anything. We're talking about changing skin colour to denote how evil or bad a person is.

Just to clarify there is a equally prevalent trope that evil can be represented by very white/pale skin.

Not sure if that's what he/she was going for and the checkmate was lame.
 
Just to clarify there is a equally prevalent trope that evil can be represented by very white/pale skin.

Not sure if that's what he/she was going for and the checkmate was lame.

Yes, thank you for understanding my meaning. There are just as many pale white evil characters in media if not more so than dark ones.
A few examples.
 
The problem is not villains having dark skin. The problem is when only the villains have dark skin. For everyone posting pale skinned villains, the heroes are also pale skinned. You don't usually see the lone white person as the villain among dark skinned heroes and innocents in fiction (unless it is historical fiction, and even there the hero is typically white too).
 

KarmaCow

Member
Just to clarify there is a equally prevalent trope that evil can be represented by very white/pale skin.

Not sure if that's what he/she was going for and the checkmate was lame.

That would make sense if anyone was saying we should be doing reverse and stigmatizing people with albinism as some sort of twisted revenge. Admittedly I'm more looking it from the perspective of darkening to make someone seem more evil since that's what this thread is based on but the argument has been not to use skin colour make someone seem evil or sinister.

Yes, thank you for understanding my meaning. There are just as many pale white evil characters in media if not more so than dark ones.

A few examples.

Read above.
 

Kwame120

Banned
I wasn't suggesting shutting PoCs out of the conversation. I was suggesting it was hypocritical to be having a conversation on racism and yet tarring all non-PoCs that hold a certain view with the same negative brush, because of their race.

I really don't want to be that guy who says "well actually YOU'RE being racist" because i understand that that is hugely offensive and undermines real racism. So I'll just point it out as highly ironic, which it is.
I've shied away from actively calling out the racist posts as racist (and I now regret mincing my words), but if something's racist, it's racist. And its more due to content of the opinion or post itself. When you have people who feel like its not much of a problem then they're not being racist, though they are trivialising it. But I can't honestly see any way for someone to agree with the notion that skin colour can denote the morality of a character, and for such a view to not be racist. Perhaps the word is to charged for some people, and they instantly put their guard up upon hearing or seeing it, but using it in such a context wouldn't be inaccurate.
Just to clarify there is a equally prevalent trope that evil can be represented by very white/pale skin.

Not sure if that's what he/she was going for and the checkmate was lame.
I believe that was mentioned earlier on in the thread, about how there's the same issue with the portrayal of albinism. And one does not justify the other, I'm all in favour of stopping that trend also.
 

Big0Bear

Member
The only time in my life that I can remember the opposite is He-man. But yea stop making bad people brown abs stopping making the ones that are heroes lighter shades of brown
 

LotusHD

Banned
I believe that was mentioned earlier on in the thread, about how there's the same issue with the portrayal of albinism. And one does not justify the other, I'm all in favour of stopping that trend also.

Yea I've seen various posts that brought that up earlier. Just another example of stuff that you may not have really given much thought about, but once it's brought to your attention, you can't unsee it lol
 
Okay, so how do we get this message in the hands of Ishikawa so changes can be made and no one else is offended? And how do we do this for every designer for that matter?

Is this his twitter?
https://twitter.com/ishikawahideki
If it is, it's as easy as asking someone fluent in Japanese to either tweet him or translate a tweet for someone else to do so (I don't have twitter, so I can't help there). I think GAF mod Shouta is pretty much bilingual, and I believe Aeana is too but I'm less sure about her; you could PM them, I don't think they'll mind.
 

wandering

Banned
Women being associated with weakness and men being associated with strength is how it's been for thousands of years. It's just how it is folks.

Also would you people please stop with bringing up yin and yang? It has absolutely nothing to do with moral dualism, Jesus Christ
 
Actually though, in all honesty in this argument I'm actually on the opposite side of this argument. I don't think there are ENOUGH Black Villains. I can understand not wanting people to associate dark skin with evil but honestly beyond people who are just dark-skinned I have a real hard time coming up with a good number of notable and good Black Villains that really impact whatever fiction they are in. So you guys might be sick of it but I want them to go further actually. Give me more of this guy and people like him.

latest

I think the key difference is that Violent Ken is "turning evil = turning brown", while Zasalamel is an evil guy who just so happens to be black. Being black and being evil are just two disconnected attributes of him. In the case of Ken, literally the two changes from plain ol' Ken are "becomes dark-skinned" and "becomes evil". It's kind of hard not to draw conclusions from there.

Besides, we all love some good villains, especially if they're playable and cool. Nothing wrong with wanting to play as the badass who brings a scythe to a swordfight, and I can see many black people loving characters like him. This is again a far cry from Ken, which is a white dude that turned brown because evil. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm seeing quite less potential for a black player to identify with him.

I mean, let's simply substitute this with other ethnicities:
- Evil Asian character: not necessarily racist per se (although historically these characters tend to carry a lot of other racist / caricaturesque traits).
- An evil force that turns characters evil and Asian: uhhhhh... yeah...
 

diaspora

Member
I don't play the Fire Emblem games so I didn't know about that one but that shit is seriously uncomfortable.

Your two key international ally heads of states are both black, so it seems like a it's geared towards using caricatures of south asian/ middle eastern looks for antagonists specifically which is... not better when the hero is a pale in spite of being the direct son/daughter of Validar.
 
I have actually never noticed this until I saw the video. What a strange thing to do.
The Mulan guy is not brown tho, but gray, but that's subjective I guess.

The Harvard study is also really disturbing and shows that we are still a long way to a perfect judgemental system. Maybe millenial judges are going to change things if they are more liberal? idk...

***Darth Vader***
Checkmate

I think you missed the point...

Well that blows all of our arguments away. 30 pages of arguments gone just like that.

I loled harder than I should!
 
I have actually never noticed this until I saw the video. What a strange thing to do.
The Mulan guy is not brown tho, but gray, but that's subjective I guess.

The Harvard study is also really disturbing and shows that we are still a long way to a perfect judgemental system. Maybe millenial judges are going to change things if they are more liberal? idk...



I think you missed the point...



I loled harder than I should!
He's like the 5th person to come in here and just be like "well I'm black" and then leave like he actually made a point or something.

I'm black also, doesn't automatically make me right here.

This thread is going in cycles, talk to one person for three pages, and then someone else comes in with the exact same argument (having not read the previous pages) and then gets annoyed when you don't bother to refute their "fresh new" take on this subject.
 

MKIL65

Member
He's like the 5th person to come in here and just be like "well I'm black" and then leave like he actually made a point or something.

It's the most tiresome and aggravating argument I've experienced on the internet since it's inception. Next to the ''B-B-But I have a female friend so sexism in gaming is totally justified!''

They're just trying to shut down discussion. And it never stops...
 

OgCarnage

Banned
you DON'T think unfair and gross portrayals of minorities isn't a real issue in the gaming community?

ok.gif
No I do not, being a minority myself I have never played a game and been offended because of the color of the pixels. You know why? Cause I'm an adult and I understand This is just a game. I'm sorry I might just be old fashioned and i don't get easily offended but This is a really sad and pathetic thing to be up in arms over. Just play the game.
 

koss424

Member
It's the most tiresome and aggravating argument I've experienced on the internet since it's inception. Next to the ''B-B-But I have a female friend so sexism in gaming is totally okay!''

They're just trying to shut down discussion. And it never stops...

What the discussion really? If villains are always people of colour that's an issue, if it's just unnaturally dark coloured characters than it's really not - it's a universal theme. Talking in circles here won't solve anything. If a developers work offends let them know And Tetra was not a villain and Gagnon is green. It really seems like a lot of posters here are looking for some sort of validation to have other posters see the error of their ways. If they are not the developers of the game why?
 

diaspora

Member
The problem is the heroes, not the villains

Not enough variety in the race of heroes for games is an issue but a separate one. Taking a character and making them brown to illustrate becoming evil/corrupted, or taking a brown character and whitening them to illustrate them being "fixed", or in the case of Validar and Robin the hero being light-skinned while their true father, the villain is... very brown are all issues.

Nobody cares about Dark Link/ Dark Sora since they're literally shadows with red eyes, or Dark Samus being a dark blue; it's when games specifically use being or becoming tanned/browner as a means to illustrate being bad/ a villain/ corruption that's a really bad look.
 

MKIL65

Member
What the discussion really? If villains are always people of colour that's an issue, if it's just unnaturally dark coloured characters than it's really not - it's a universal theme.

If it's really a ''universal theme'' then where is the mixture of both?

We have multiple pale/white skinned heroes and villains in one game, but that's not the case for other racial groups.

That's the discussion.
 

koss424

Member
who the hell cares? They're thieves/pirates in OOT/MM and got fixed in BoTW. The bloody game knows they weren't represented well.

i never got the impression the Gerudo were bad in Oot (never played MM). They were protecting their lair and helped you at the end if you proved your stealthiness. Thieves are normally the stealth class in fantasy setting not the bad guys.
 

koss424

Member
If it's really a ''universal theme'' then where is the mixture of both?

We have multiple pale/white skinned heroes and villains in one game, but that's not the case for other racial groups.

That's the discussion.

If we keep talking about games for 20+ years ago I guess the argument can go on forever.

I'm sure now that we are going to movies, games music that were considered classic banned in the near future. A Canadian Unversity recently banned Take a Walk on the Wild Side for trans-gendered considerations. Maybe thatbwhay needs to happen, I don't like the idea but if that's what the majority of people wants so be it I didn't create any of these pieces of work so I don't really have a stake in the conversation I guess.
 

ZdkDzk

Member
Yes, thank you for understanding my meaning. There are just as many pale white evil characters in media if not more so than dark ones.

A few examples.

First off, you're still missing the point. It's not "POCs shouldn't be evil", it's "Stop using the real world skintone of POCs as a shorthand for evil/lesser versions of characters."

Second, characters like Darth Vader aren't light skinned, they're inhumanly pale, which combined with the rest of the make-up makes them look like corpses. The skintone isn't implying a connection between darker skin and evil/darkness; it's creating a visual link between the character and a litteral corpse. The end result is something more akin to Shadow Link than Evil Ryu. A character's evil form being litterally black is alright. A character's evil form being a POC AU version is not.

Third, half of those characters are just normal white people. Joker wears white face paint/has bleached skin because he's supposed to look like a clown; the Evil Queen's hag form isn't any whiter than most caucasians and is about the same tone as her normal body. The only ones which actually fits your argument is Dr Evil (who is artificially made to look whiter without the inhuman aspects) and Gollumn. Those the only two I can think of.

Although you can say that these depictions frame albinos to albinos in a negative light (I'm kind of in the middle on that).
 
No I do not, being a minority myself I have never played a game and been offended because of the color of the pixels. You know why? Cause I'm an adult and I understand This is just a game. I'm sorry I might just be old fashioned and i don't get easily offended but This is a really sad and pathetic thing to be up in arms over. Just play the game.

You can recognize something as problematic without being offended, which I don't know why you use that word like it's a bad thing. It's no one's fault they're offended by something. I'm not offended by the many (unintentionally?) racist things said in this thread, but I still recognize them as problematic.
 
you DON'T think unfair and gross portrayals of minorities isn't a real issue in the gaming community?

ok.gif

Why do people keep using the word minority when referring to people of color? Are you not aware that people of color are actually the vast majority on the planet?
 
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