iRAWRasaurus
Banned
To me, this indicates Kanji wasn't gay, cause ATLUS would have made him something like this.
If P5 is any indication, they aren't.
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"Persona 5 Can't Champion Marginalized Underdogs Without Queer Characters"
- Thread starter WrenchNinja
- Start date
90% of yaoi stuff is schlick-bait fantasy for girls by girls. It's not by any means inclusive to gay men.
Aarglefarg
Member
The article doesn't mention Yusuke and the queerbaiting responses offered to the player in his social link encounters.
Sure but none of that is mainstream. It would be great if someone wanted to sit down and write a really good LBGT+ character for almost anything that doesn't have the caivate of being sexy or comedic. But I don't think there's an entertainment section in Japan that would ever cultivate something like that for mass consumption. They'll acknowledge, make things for the fringe audiences it has and be content with it's numbers, similar to titty games and fanservice mangas.
But, and in gaming more than anything else, Japanese developers are not ready to push a protagonist forward and say, here's "x" he's gay. He's not over the top about it, but he will not be romancing any women. Maybe you'll see a dick. And he is the protagonist of this 60 hour 80 million dollar budget video game.
I mean, it's a good game.
It's just not the driving social commentary that people wanted.
benicillin
Banned
No! It's precisely why we should critique Persona 5 because it's a game that comes really close to getting it and then doesn't. I love the series and the only way it can grow is through thoughtful criticism like this.
lol fucking hell. That's worse than the "Funky Student" shit.
If P5 is any indication, they aren't.
Things like homosexuality is mostly treated as something only allowed behind closed doors.Don't be public about it, at all. Obviously Japan is very closed of in general but it is even worse for minorities.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
I think you definitely have male writers writing yuri and female writers writing yaoi but not as much as one would think. With the more open doujinshi market you have a lot of LGBT creators being able to create something for an audience as well.
I would recommend checking out a recently officially released manga called "My Lesbian Experience With Loneliness" which is a pretty deep cut into that kind of stuff.
I wouldn't disagree but I also don't know how much of it lines up with male authors writing bara/boys love. I at least know quite a few female mangaka that write girls love.
I think theres legit criticism of mostly yaoi but I don't really know much about it.
I'm guess I'm glad they didn't then.
Because they would have made him into a joke.
Honestly? Considering Hashino has left the series, I feel like Persona has nowhere to go but down.
He after Naoto is revealed to be a girl, he clearly fawns over her.
Hell in the anime his nose bled just thinking of the prospect of seeing her in a swimsuit. Even though he never does see it.
Inferno313
Banned
That's only if you have no idea what the concept of privilege actually means. It's a totally valid thing to talk about when talking about a work that, itself, seems to be interested in exploring.
Like, just as an example, the concept of "White Privilege" or "Male Privilege" doesn't mean that white people or men have it easy. Obviously plenty of white people have had shitty lives. Plenty of men have had shitty lives. What it means is that there are certain cultural benefits you gain from your privilege. White people can get pulled over by cops without having to worry about being shot. Men don't have to worry about how their employer will react to them becoming pregnant. Etc, etc.
Kanji was never explicitly said to be gay or even bi, though you could interpret his character as being the latter.
FUNKY STUDENT WAS AMAZING
And atleast no one was accusing him of being a fucking criminal, let alone a fucking pedophile.
In japanese media, the role of gay people is to either be hilariously over the top (which is rarely actually funny and usually results in a "eww gross" mentality) or be sexy, and then usually only lesbians.
Now that I think about it, the only piece of japanese media that treats a gay person like a real fucking person is Tokyo Godfathers, AND EVEN THEN, all of the gay characters are over the top Okama who are endearing and wonderful, but still caricatures.
Incandenza
Banned
It would have been so easy to make Yusuke romanceable. I mean his Confidant is already more intimate than the other male confidants and his sexuality is left highly ambiguous throughout the game. Just let me kiss the artboy!
Yeah I also don't buy that Makoto is particularly privileged in comparison to the rest of the cast. It's not like she was born into having good grades and being on a good career path, she was pressured into it partially from her sister and partially from feeling like a financial liability. I mean they may have an implausibly luxurious apartment but they're still orphans living off a single source of income that Sae can only maintain by selling herself out to Japan's fucked up criminal justice system.
Yeah I also don't buy that Makoto is particularly privileged in comparison to the rest of the cast. It's not like she was born into having good grades and being on a good career path, she was pressured into it partially from her sister and partially from feeling like a financial liability. I mean they may have an implausibly luxurious apartment but they're still orphans living off a single source of income that Sae can only maintain by selling herself out to Japan's fucked up criminal justice system.
WhateverItTakes
Banned
Forgot about Project Re Fantasy. Obviously a while off but I'm excited to see if breaking from the shackles of Persona (irony) means the writers can break new ground. I should really try and get through and FeMC run one of these days...
Yeah I hated this too.
Honestly I don't think I'm ever gonna bother beating it. Really disappointed with the game overall.
whalleywhat
Member
This isn't the Rainbow Coalition. There are marginalized underdogs who aren't homosexual, and homosexuals who are in no way marginalized. Fatlus can tell whatever story they want.
Losing your strongest creative voice/journeyman director does not usually improve a series' fortunes.
Raging Spaniard
If they are Dutch, upright and breathing they are more racist than your favorite player
Sure, theres inbetweens. I definitely didnt like that scene with the "super gay dudes" at the beach but I also think P5 does an amazing job at many other sensitive subjects it tackles so I dont think it deserves a ton of criticism ... well, let me rephrase that, it deserves a lot less criticism than most other games in the genre because at least its trying.
Its also hard for them to relate to such a different audience like LGBT people in America, its a completely different situation.
BRSxIgnition
Member
This is exactly why I'm excited that Hashino & co are moving on to a new title, leaving Persona for a new team @ Atlus.
Hopefully the new team doesn't go out of their way to treat LGBTQ people as a joke.
Hopefully the new team doesn't go out of their way to treat LGBTQ people as a joke.
I mean, we'll see in 10 years, but I'm not expecting the social reform in japanese culture that you seem to be hoping for.
WhateverItTakes
Banned
Oh I mean in Re Fantasy. Persona talent getting to try something new, y'know?
semiconscious
Member
the truth? it's the least 'woke' persona game, period. i enjoyed it for the gameplay, but the whole 'teen crusaders for truth & justice fighting corrupt adults' theme was seriously dismal, unimaginative, & heavy-handed. not to mention, just plain corny
...it's a very good game. but i was & still am disappointed with it. for me, story/character -wise, a big step back from what came before...
Haven't finished P5 yet, but fuck those homophobic jokes
Fates also had a character whose only character quirk was that she was attracted to other women. She can only S-rank men.
In their Japanese supports, the male avatar spikes her drink with a magic powder that makes her attracted to men.
Fates also had a character whose only character quirk was that she was attracted to other women. She can only S-rank men.
In their Japanese supports, the male avatar spikes her drink with a magic powder that makes her attracted to men.
The game in question(innocent sin) only came overseas in an psp remake that can be bought for ps vita at a rather cheap price during promotions and psp emulation is a thing so, yeah i expect people that are really engaged with the series to play it, espacially considering that p4g is a vita game. It also has the very same thing you talked about in your spoiler tags, it's awesome.
It bugs me the fact that people still think that persona 3 was the first game in the series when it was actually one of the worst games story wise
I won't lie to you, that game is a grind and the gameplay is clunky, the graphics are okayish and it didn't age well. But it also has one of the best stories in the franchise, and p5 should've learned a bit from it, p5 itself borrowed a lot from that game, especially regarding character designs
Depicting Hashino as some sort of fervent gay basher is painting with a broad brush. You may as well throw practically all of Japanese media under the bus too.
Y'all need to get some perspective. This all or nothing shit is embarrassing.
Yes, japanese media, where homosexuality is usually something that's DONE to you.
Not all of it, but the BIG mass media stuff? Absolutely. Hollywood is generally the same way, they've just been making strides because they've found out that people can engage with homosexual relationships on the silver screen. That being said, when was the last time you heard a brokeback mountain joke? Probably wasn't that long ago.
While i do think P5 can be tone def in its early hours, I do think that ann's situations can be seen in different ways.
As I played i saw those moments as reaffirmation of ann's need to be in control of her sexual image. Hence why she's okay and even jokes at Ryuji's leering at the beach but hated it when they leered in the van. Like why she is focused on control in the awakening battle that its not until after its finished that she realizes her outward appearance without her knowing and thus felt uncomfortable. (or how she tries to regain control of image during the "nude art" scene by wearing as much clothing as possible as a sort of dichotomy.)
not to say it was done perfect or even well, or anything but i just thought that it was an interesting thought.
I don't see the point in you responding in such a matter when i explicitly said exactly that later in the post. I literally said that being gay or having a marginalized sexuality fit the themes.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
its an example of another popular game known for romances but Fire Emblems writing is pretty shit in general, even in Fates the conversations became pretty bad as well but I was never sure if that drink spiking thing was legit or not. I wouldn't be all that surprised if it was though
the truth? it's the least 'woke' persona game, period. i enjoyed it for the gameplay, but the whole 'teen crusaders for truth & justice fighting corrupt adults' theme was seriously dismal, unimaginative, & heavy-handed. not to mention, just plain corny
it's a very good game. but i was & still am disappointed with it. for me, story/character -wise, a big step back from what came before...
The further I get from P5, the more I realize I'm never going to think about the game ever again, unprompted. It lasted 115 hours without managing to really say anything.
The beach scene in Persona is possibly one of my most hated scenes in videogames. Which sucks, because I otherwise love the game. There's the one dimensional gay stereotypes (which even then is giving their "characterisation" too much credit) of course, but it's also when the ogling of the women in Persona 5 is arguably at its worst. It's the culmination of everything wrong with that sort of anime-esque comedy.
If the P3P writer is actually involved in the studio zero game, then consider me back on board, because her influence was sorely missed in Persona 5. UGH THE BEACH SCENE. THE BEACH SCENE! If Persona 5 Crimson just cuts it out entirely, it would already be a vast improvement. Easy 10/10 remake, I'd buy the limited edition.
...I swear I actually love the game.
If the P3P writer is actually involved in the studio zero game, then consider me back on board, because her influence was sorely missed in Persona 5. UGH THE BEACH SCENE. THE BEACH SCENE! If Persona 5 Crimson just cuts it out entirely, it would already be a vast improvement. Easy 10/10 remake, I'd buy the limited edition.
...I swear I actually love the game.
chrominance
Member
I agree with "don't let perfect be the enemy of the good." On the other hand, "hey guess what the newest Battlefield game didn't mention LGBT issues yet again surprise!" doesn't exactly sell papers, so to speak.
I don't mean that in a flippant or cynical way, either. It's simply not that interesting to talk about games that completely fail or ignore a certain type of representation, because how do you discuss a void? You can talk about the continuing trend of a lack of representation (for example, this Motherboard article), but banging on and on about how every game released doesn't touch on [insert representation issue here] gets tiring if you do it on an individual game-by-game basis.
More generally I think it speaks to a split in viewpoint about the role of criticism. On one side, you have criticism as quasi-objective arbiter of quality: is this a good thing or a bad thing? Taken in that light, articles like this can be seen as painting Persona 5 as a "bad thing" because it fails at this particular issue of representation. That can seem awfully one-note, and people take offense that a game they otherwise liked gets failing marks for an aspect they don't care about.
But on the other side, you have criticism as discussion: not something intended to tell you about the overall value of a product, but to pick apart aspects of it and say why you liked them or didn't like them. Seen in that light, Persona 5's issues with LGBT representation don't make the game as a whole bad; it represents one problematic aspect of a whole. It's something we can discuss, argue, and disagree about while still thinking of the game as good or bad based on other merits.
I subscribe to the latter mode of thought, and really think it's healthier if you don't think of this article solely as a cudgel to strike Persona 5 down, but as a way to discuss a single problematic aspect of it in the hopes that one day we get a Persona game that does better.
My interpretation of Kanji's character and story arc is that straight guys are allowed to have and enjoy traditionally stereotypically female hobbies without being made fun or being called gay for it.
IS is getting better at least.
Leon wasn't treated as a joke or like he had some sort of illness or something.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
Honestly they should cut the animated scenes out. They suck, look like crap, feel completely out of place (yo dudes your engine is PRETTY GOOD at this stuff to begin with) and feature less voice acting then usual
whalleywhat
Member
Well, I mean more according to what people have actually encountered in life, not the narrative that Waypoint is demanding be reinforced.
That's not going to happen, if anything they might add more.
Here's another waifu for you MC to hooked up with, more fan service cut scene's and more gay stereotypes for Ryuji and you to deal with and have wacky banter with.
That's the one! Ah man, woulda been cool to see her helm another project; but I hope she gets to contribute some good stuff to ReFantasy.
BRSxIgnition
Member
I wouldn't call it "Social reform in Japanese culture" so much as not using that tired 'joke' anymore. They didn't need it in Persona 3, yet they've done it in Persona 4, Persona 4 Dancing All night, and now Persona 5.
There are other ways to write jokes, is all.
Depicting Hashino as a "fervent gay basher" was the furthest thing from my mind when typing that. I'm simply saying that maybe a new team working on Persona will remove these kinds of 'jokes' from use. (New writers, etc.)
Hollywood discovered that LGBTQ folx were a commodity to be serviced, that's all. I'm merely being pandered to. It makes me feel good in some ways and icky in others.
Perhaps Japan will discover that one day but for now we're kind of stuck with a mixed bag. I'd rather experience SMT and Persona, warts and all, then not play the games at all. It's been one of my favorite series since Nocturne.
If P5 is any indication, they aren't.
The weirdest thing about this to me is that those two appear in 2 scenes and have zero impact on anything, showing up out of nowhere and leaving again as if nothing happened.
On the one hand that makes it easier to ignore I guess, but on the other why is it even in the game in the first place?
It's not a coincidence that there was a playable female protagonist AND a gay love interest before Hashino came aboard. With him gone I fully expect there to be a female protagonist again at the very minimum, and maybe better queer representation.
You should get some perspective. Hashino has flat out stated his views in plenty of interviews.
Autoignition
Member
idk Akechi was pretty gay-coded.
But in all seriousness, Lala Escargot was so fantastic of a character that I almost forgive Atlus for those two rando predators.
But in all seriousness, Lala Escargot was so fantastic of a character that I almost forgive Atlus for those two rando predators.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
Yeah I like Lala a lot. I don't know how she is in the same game as gay rapist okama predators. It makes no sense.
I think calling her a fantastic character is a stretch given she's barely a character, but I'd love for the updated release to give her a portrait and S.Link. She was certainly better than those two stereotypes.
Spring-Loaded
Member
But don't they make fun of gay characters in P5? Seems like the headline should be taken/read as "you can't have a story about marginalized characters while portraying other marginalized groups"
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