Autoignition
Member
In a drought, even a tablespoon of clean water brings relief.
I really wanted her to get a portrait, too. That chick in Ann's SLink gets one, but Lala doesn't? Shenanigans.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
"Persona 5 Can't Champion Marginalized Underdogs Without Queer Characters"
- Thread starter WrenchNinja
- Start date
In a drought, even a tablespoon of clean water brings relief.
I really wanted her to get a portrait, too. That chick in Ann's SLink gets one, but Lala doesn't? Shenanigans.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
It's wasted potential if your gonna have a story about marginalized youth and not have an LGBT character.
And I fully expect the series to slide into decline regardless of what they do and don't put in. We shall see.
We could get an awesome FemC route that cuts out that shit out. The lack of transphobic shit in P3P's FemC playthrough was great.
Lala is great. So weird to have her in the same game as the gay predator dudes. Those scenes were terrible. Even on just a purely comedic judgment, they were terrible. Not funny at all (I can only assume they were meant as comedic scenes).
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
I don't see that coming since P4 Golden didn't even bother to do it.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
Autoignition
Member
Oh my.
snow in jamaica
Member
The sauna was one big gay joke down to the location, innuendo, and Yosuke panic of NO I DONT SWING THAT WAY. Whether he's gay or not, his issues were a venue for that garbage.
Poor GRIMES
Banned
Haven't read the article fully but agree with its basic premise.
I really don't think Persona writers are fully equipped to write about the LGBT+ experience without trivializing or caricaturizing it. Just take one cursory look at the outdated stereotypes of the gay predators in Persona 5 and Yosuke and Teddie's general homophobia in Persona 4.
Persona can barely make their female characters right either. Making a hot dumb blonde party member whose social link is completely devoted to her modeling career is not a good look. Sexualizing Futaba is not a good look. Etc
I really don't think Persona writers are fully equipped to write about the LGBT+ experience without trivializing or caricaturizing it. Just take one cursory look at the outdated stereotypes of the gay predators in Persona 5 and Yosuke and Teddie's general homophobia in Persona 4.
Persona can barely make their female characters right either. Making a hot dumb blonde party member whose social link is completely devoted to her modeling career is not a good look. Sexualizing Futaba is not a good look. Etc
Persona 5 Crimson would have to change a looooooot if there was a Female MC, way more so than 4. For example, I don't think people would be cool seeing
a teenage girl getting beaten up senselessly by the police
Well played
Mhmm, Kido mostly works on the S Link stuff.
As in, the parts of the games that are actually well written.
I think you mean HOO BOY
and replaying the game I still love it but I definetly wish it has some better LGBT and female respresentation. It does some progressive themes so well and then just completely falls on it's face on others
And don't get me started on how most of the romance options have really creepy power dynamics
Poor GRIMES
Banned
I think that's a copout. Women are in infantry forces in the real world. Chun Li and Cammy have been staples in the fighting genre for a long ass time. Etc.
Maybe just make it still images that imply it.
Then again Persona tries to be daring so maybe they should do it.
But then again I really don't see it happening for reason like that.
Autoignition
Member
Eh, just switch all the goons to female agents. That's an easy fix.
Thank you. This shit really grinds my gears in a game that's seems to want to shine a light on how terrible those power dynamics are. The only romances that needed to be in the game were Ann, Makoto, Haru, and Hifumi (in addition to Ryuji, Yusuke, and Akechi /coughcough). Everything else has really gross undertones to it.
Poor GRIMES
Banned
What do you mean? Are you implying women never get shunned in school? If anything, I think it's WORSE for women. There's a woman in your main cast herself that gets slut shamed for no goddamn reason.
This is wrong.
Katsura Hashino is the game director. He did not tell Troy Baker that Kanji is gay, lol.
Troy interpreted it that Kanji was gay (or so he says, who really knows), but the Japanese development team explicitly see Kanji as a straight character.
It is a game about children, so yes?
It was SUPPOSED to be, but yeah that's another point of friction.
Tbf I think Hifumi, Makoto and the fortune teller are the only ones without creepy undertones
ann just escaped an abusive relationship and Harus dad literally just died
Didn't Hashino say they left it purposely obscure so the player could decide. Personally i read him as Bi
We had a thread like this a few months back about Persona 4 and it's really sad how Atlus can both be the absolute best and worst at tackling tricky issues at the same time.
There's clearly some clever ideas going on but they always manage to piss away any good will or meaning from it by going for incredibly poor taste jokes or adhering to the typical Japanese perception of something which is almost always highly regressive.
It does make me feel like in future Atlus should stay away from tackling stuff like LGBT issues or any other touchy issues if they keep messing up in such catastrophic ways.
PS: Yaoi is almost never a positive thing for gay men. 99% of the time it's a fetish and nothing to do with progressive mindsets towards gays. Neither is lesbian porn before anyone tries to use that as an example either.
There's clearly some clever ideas going on but they always manage to piss away any good will or meaning from it by going for incredibly poor taste jokes or adhering to the typical Japanese perception of something which is almost always highly regressive.
It does make me feel like in future Atlus should stay away from tackling stuff like LGBT issues or any other touchy issues if they keep messing up in such catastrophic ways.
PS: Yaoi is almost never a positive thing for gay men. 99% of the time it's a fetish and nothing to do with progressive mindsets towards gays. Neither is lesbian porn before anyone tries to use that as an example either.
No it doesn't. How does it do that?
I very much doubt it was Hoshino, most likely was just the English voice director that told him that, who thoughts means jack shit in terms of the game development.
They could've easily just gone with 'bi'. Bi dudes are hardly ever presented as its a thing that is significantly less popular to fetishize compared to bi women.
But again, they just stepped away from any queerness in Kanji's sexuality at all.
Autoignition
Member
Chihaya is also an adult (and a scam artist wtf why I gotta get to rank 10 before you give me my 100k back) so I don't mess with her, either. Ann was never in a relationship, just an abusive situation -- like all the rest of the cast was. And Haru never seemed too pressed about what happened lmfao. That was always a weird foible with her character, though.
Yeah that's something I was just thinking about earlier today.
Generally not for the reasons the P5 MC is. Sojiro probably also wouldn't be nearly as cold initially toward the MC if they were a girl too.
Not saying it's impossible for the game to work with a female main character or anything, just that some things especially at the beginning of the game would need to be rewritten
TheEndOfItAll
Neo Member
But is P5 really trying to champion marginalized characters? I always thought it was the opposite: demonizing sinful adults, and convincing those that conform that those in power aren't always in the right. Every character's arc starts out with being a victim of direct abuse from a powerful person. None of them are minorities or come necessarily from low social standing and they are all heterosexuals. They are victims first.
Ann is a particular example here. Marginalized? Hardly. There were rumors about her and Kamoshida, which turned out to be somewhat true, but guys stayed away from her more out of deference to Kamoshida rather than thinking she was some bad person. Girls just exhibited typical high school jealousy. Despite that, she still had a budding modeling career and friends in school. She's no underdog.
Yusuke was a promising art student who was "schooled" by Madarame specifically because of his extreme talent. Haru was the heir apparent to a food empire. Futaba is a literal victim of brainwashing. Ryuji was a track star before he rebelled and may well be the only case of real marginalization. His case, however, was the first real attempt at non-conformity along with MC's arc. Makoto was the freaking student council president and on the way to gathering a lengthy list of college recommendations. Mishima was basically Ryuji without the balls to do anything about it.
Ann is a particular example here. Marginalized? Hardly. There were rumors about her and Kamoshida, which turned out to be somewhat true, but guys stayed away from her more out of deference to Kamoshida rather than thinking she was some bad person. Girls just exhibited typical high school jealousy. Despite that, she still had a budding modeling career and friends in school. She's no underdog.
Yusuke was a promising art student who was "schooled" by Madarame specifically because of his extreme talent. Haru was the heir apparent to a food empire. Futaba is a literal victim of brainwashing. Ryuji was a track star before he rebelled and may well be the only case of real marginalization. His case, however, was the first real attempt at non-conformity along with MC's arc. Makoto was the freaking student council president and on the way to gathering a lengthy list of college recommendations. Mishima was basically Ryuji without the balls to do anything about it.
Slut shaming is not comparable to the way the main character is outcast.
The entire
Teenage female protects another female from sexual assault, but is accused of assault by the perpetrator and then proceeds to get shunned by all of society for being perceived as some wanton criminal delinquent
funkystudent
Member
I bet they could pull something decent off with a gay character if they committed to it. It would probably still be surrounded by the other creepiness that Persona normally has though. Like P4 and 5 have great female characters and as well as a bunch of creepy sexist bullshit. They give as hard as they take.
Being ambiguous with Kanji felt like a cop out. Given how sensitive some people can be I cant totally blame them for getting cold feet but I think that was their shot and they missed. For the most part they handled him great and one or two lines could have really gone a long way.
Being ambiguous with Kanji felt like a cop out. Given how sensitive some people can be I cant totally blame them for getting cold feet but I think that was their shot and they missed. For the most part they handled him great and one or two lines could have really gone a long way.
Poor GRIMES
Banned
Yes.
Persona 5: Cast Spoilers
MC - Thrown accusations of commiting a crime and kicked out of school, being sent away as a boarder.
Ryuji - Former athlete that was shunned for rebelling against the practices of his coach. Also his former team hates his ass
Ann - Pretty girl who gets slut shamed and accused of sleeping with the high school coach.
Yusuke - Orphaned student who seemingly has notoriety but no peers whatsoever.
Makoto - Honors student that straight up flops at making meaningful connections with her peers and lives in the shadows of her older sister
Futaba - A literal shut-in case.
Morgana - Maybe functions as a parallel to trans people with his "I'm supposed to be human!" belief, but more believably, a cat who has a mission but no means to communicate with anyone else.
Haru - Rich girl who has an arranged marriage and everyone seems to be afraid of her because of her last name.
Ryuji - Former athlete that was shunned for rebelling against the practices of his coach. Also his former team hates his ass
Ann - Pretty girl who gets slut shamed and accused of sleeping with the high school coach.
Yusuke - Orphaned student who seemingly has notoriety but no peers whatsoever.
Makoto - Honors student that straight up flops at making meaningful connections with her peers and lives in the shadows of her older sister
Futaba - A literal shut-in case.
Morgana - Maybe functions as a parallel to trans people with his "I'm supposed to be human!" belief, but more believably, a cat who has a mission but no means to communicate with anyone else.
Haru - Rich girl who has an arranged marriage and everyone seems to be afraid of her because of her last name.
TetraGenesis
Member
PLEASE do not try to defend Persona 5's treatment of homosexuality.
That's what happens when your characters continuously rant about how much better they are than anyone else out there.
Which is fair I guess, considering the game lacks any world building.
But underdogs? Hardly.
Chosen ones? Of course!
this was disgusting
If P5 is any indication, they aren't.
TheEndOfItAll
Neo Member
You're trying to project them as adults, though. Just consider them as what they are supposed to be: 15-to-17 year old moody teenagers. In that light, it is an accurate projection for most.
Autoignition
Member
It works well for me. I've (female) had to put hands on a dude for hassling a fellow lady friend at a bar before. I could absolutely see a female character jumping in to help a woman like that.
Also, it never got out why Joker was charged with assault. People around Shujin just seem to be under the impression that he went crazy and hauled off and slugged a dude.
Shido
Lord of Ostia
Member
This is a good article, the terrible representation of LGBTQ characters is the biggest knock against Persona 5
TheEndOfItAll
Neo Member
It is a step backwards, for sure.
Poor GRIMES
Banned
I don't believe it's not realistic when, in the real world, rape cases by the victim and close peers to the victim get treated like an actual joke by everyone involved. "She was asking for it," "she probably shouldn't have left her house at that time," etc. are all common phrases that have been thrown in the right-wing media and diet sexists on social media. It's perfectly believable to have a female MC intervene and be shit on.
As an addendum, I really think that having a female MC be thrown the same shit the MC did would really emphasize the themes of rebelling against fascism and populism the game really is all gung ho about. The right-wing is notorious for marking women with witch hunts and getting them shamed.
Persona 5 is all about undercutting itself with the stuff mentioned in the OP, and of course its ridiculous depiction of gay men with those two guys who pop up from time to time and make me ashamed to be playing the game. They really need new people in charge of this series, because the constant lack of awareness is really disappointing to see in games such as these. They are close to something pretty good, but not without some staff changes, I think.
Well boy do I have good news for you, because all of the staff leads have left to form a new team called Studio Zero!
P6 will have new directors, writers, composers etc. etc.
TheEndOfItAll
Neo Member
Hell yeah you could. Imagine a P5 where you choose to be either the defender (the current MC) or the girl that is assaulted. The girl could also be a Shujin student, or a student at a different school who gets expelled by rejecting his advances.
The MC was also charged with assault, so everybody in the game think he's a dangerous hoodlum as a result. You couldn't really pull that off with a Female main character. At least, not in Japan, where their society is much more conservative.
Similar threads
- Locked