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Boss Doggie · Oct 13, 2017

Alternatively, "is never lazy".

There are beautiful hand-drawn animation. But they are beautiful not because they are hand-drawn. They are beautiful because they are... beautiful.

Sadly this is a peeve of mine that I keep seeing a lot. That apparently being "hand drawn" makes it immediately better and apparently immune to shit like being lazily drawn. People often complain that "modern shows are all so simple in shapes with very little expressions"... often forgetting that it has very little to do with what format or how they are made.

It's like people forget Lou Scheimer cartoons which essentially have really stiff movement and limited facial expressions, and often has a tendency where characters are just standing still.

Or Hanna-Barbera's "cheat" where the lower half of the body doesn't move and only the head does, complete with "exchangeable" head parts

Screen-shot-2012-10-02-at-9.33.05-PM.png

Or hell, the clut of the 90s where characters look really off model because merchandising or rushed production to catch that demographic.

And even anime isn't immune to shit like this.

Is it because people think something is hard, ergo it will produce something good? "Drawing with hands is hard ergo the outcome will definitely be good because it is harder to do!"

Slaythe · Oct 13, 2017

Somebody post the last Super episode gifs, quick !

Boss Doggie · Oct 13, 2017

Slaythe said:
Somebody post the last Super episode gifs, quick !

I haven't watched Super since Black Goku, did they do something terrible with the animation?

Spuck-uk · Oct 13, 2017

Akira, and Ghost in the Shell both use computer animation.

Pixar, in general.

Argument is bunk.

Westbahnhof · Oct 13, 2017

I mean, superior doesn't mean "good", right?
It's also a very generalized statement, meaning it doesn't have to apply every time.
In the end, I'd call it opinion, far from factual.

Spuck-uk · Oct 13, 2017

Boss Doggie said:
I haven't watched Super since Black Goku, did they do something terrible with the animation?

Can it be worse than DBZ? Because the animation in that was just insanely bad in parts (and only ever average on its best days).

andymcc · Oct 13, 2017

Boss Doggie said:
I haven't watched Super since Black Goku, did they do something terrible with the animation?

No but its the absolute best looking episode of the series and manages to look better than even some of the best of DB/Z.

Earthbound64 · Oct 13, 2017

That's "the most bs claim you've ever heard"?
Must not pay much attention to politics.

Lights and Waves · Oct 13, 2017

Speaking of hand drawn animation, your avatar kind of looks like a naked version of Were Garurumon pleasuring himself OP lol

sankt-Antonio · Oct 13, 2017

Which scene in Akira is computer animated?

CaviarMeths · Oct 13, 2017

Additionally, CGI isn't inherently worse than practical effects. All are just tools in the artist's hands and can be crafted poorly or to great effect. There are entire scenes constructed with CG now and audiences don't say a thing because they don't notice.

Earthbound64 · Oct 13, 2017

Also, a topic about "animation," and only 1 of the 4 pictures used as example are actually animated?

Aaronrules380 · Oct 13, 2017

Boss Doggie said:
I haven't watched Super since Black Goku, did they do something terrible with the animation?

the opposite really. Not sure why they're bringing it up

UnluckyKate · Oct 13, 2017

Define Handdrawn ?

Because everything is hand drawn to a point and computer assisted to another...

So hand drawn means absolutely no computer assistance ?

The definition is blurry.

Magwik · Oct 13, 2017

Earthbound64 said:
Also, a topic about "animation," and only 1 of the 4 pictures used as example are actually animated?

Animation = art now, don't ya know?

Bishop89 · Oct 13, 2017

Spuck-uk said:
Can it be worse than DBZ? Because the animation in that was just insanely bad in parts (and only ever average on its best days).

yes... average.

Westbahnhof · Oct 13, 2017

Earthbound64 said:
That's "the most bs claim you've ever heard"?
Must not pay much attention to politics.

I've heard people claim that North Korea might nuke Austria, that black people smell bad and that choosing civil service over military service shows hatred for your country. From one person, in one evening.

I wish animation bias was the most nonsensical claim I have been subjected to.

Aaronrules380 · Oct 13, 2017

UnluckyKate said:
Define Handdrawn ?

Because everything is hand drawn to a point and computer assisted to another...

So hand drawn means absolutely no computer assistance ?

The definition is blurry.

I'm assuming hand drawn as opposed to completely cgi. In this case hand drawn would apply to digital animation where the animators used a computer, but still drawn piece by piece instead of animating using 3d models

TEJ · Oct 13, 2017

I prefer high quality hand drawn animation to cgi. The low quality stuff you mentioned I have little to no love for.

However, movies like Zootopia and Moana are gorgeous, and im hoping that Disney can keep on outdoing themselves with the visuals in their cgi films.

old manatee · Oct 13, 2017

CGI hasn't yet reached the peaks of hand-drawn animation.

Earthbound64 · Oct 13, 2017

Westbahnhof said:
I've heard people claim that North Korea might nuke Austria, that black people smell bad and that choosing civil service over military service shows hatred for your country. From one person, in one evening.

I wish animation bias was the most nonsensical claim I have been subjected to.

Exactly.

Magwik said:
Animation = art now, don't ya know?

The animation on the Mona Lisa is really mediocre. Da Vinci was a hack.

Jackpot · Oct 13, 2017

I agree OP. I read reviews of Area 88 OAV vs those of Area 88 remake and it was full of that BS. It was like they were completely oblivious to the crudeness of the some of the plane drawings, the ballooning dimensions and deliberate aversion to changing the "angle" of the drawing even though it broke the laws of physics.

Saya · Oct 13, 2017

I'm on team whatever this is

Boss Doggie · Oct 13, 2017

Lights and Waves said:
Speaking of hand drawn animation, your avatar kind of looks like a naked version of Were Garurumon pleasuring himself OP lol

nah is halloween

Earthbound64 said:
Also, a topic about "animation," and only 1 of the 4 pictures used as example are actually animated?

Magwik said:
Animation = art now, don't ya know?

surprisingly enough it's hard to look gifs for old shows lol

honestly just watch a clip of the episodes to see my point, or hell, online reviewers about them

anyway if you did read my posts, you will get what I mean, especially if you've watched them

UnluckyKate said:
Define Handdrawn ?

Because everything is hand drawn to a point and computer assisted to another...

So hand drawn means absolutely no computer assistance ?

The definition is blurry.

iirc for that, the difference is traditional vs digital

basically hand-drawn can still include digital media, stuff like flash are opposite of hand drawn if you catch my drift, since even if they are drawn, most of the process are mostly manipulating shapes

Wag · Oct 13, 2017

Eidan · Oct 13, 2017

OP, Im sure those saying hand drawn animation is superior arent saying ALL hand drawn animation is superior, just that the highs seen in the best hand drawn animation is better than the highs seen in the best computer generated counterpart. Surely you knew this.

Earthbound64 · Oct 13, 2017

Jackpot said:
I agree OP. I read reviews of Area 88 OAV vs those of Area 88 remake and it was full of that BS. It was like they were completely oblivious to the crudeness of the some of the plane drawings, the ballooning dimensions and deliberate aversion to changing the "angle" of the drawing even though it broke the laws of physics.

What we really need is another U.N. Squadron game.

darkblade77 · Oct 13, 2017

Generally, assuming similar(high) levels of proficiency? Maybe, room for debate.

Inherently? Absolutely not

Foggy · Oct 13, 2017

I had no idea handdrawn animation could be done poorly. Thanks, OP.

mclem · Oct 13, 2017

My first thought, although not quite the same:

Boss Doggie · Oct 13, 2017

Eidan said:
OP, Im sure those saying hand drawn animation is superior arent saying ALL hand drawn animation is superior, just that the highs seen in the best hand drawn animation is better than the highs seen in the best computer generated counterpart. Surely you knew this.

Ehh depends on the focus.

Soapbox Killer · Oct 13, 2017

I see this a 2D vs 3D thing. I just happen to enjoy the best looking 2D over the best looking 3D. That would be with gaming too.

Haunted · Oct 13, 2017

OP's strawman doesn't really hold up, of course it isn't inherently better.

but...

Capra · Oct 13, 2017

It's a pretty dumb assumption that stems from the more reasonable claim that more effort = better quality. There's a misconception that digital animation is somehow easier to produce than hand-drawn animation (never mind the fact that it's still people drawing on a tablet) so therefore it must be "inferior." In reality most animators have always needed to cut corners in order to meet deadlines so not needing to paint directly onto cels or manage physical media subject to degradation should be a massive boon to those who do have the skill and can focus their efforts entirely into producing high-quality animation.

Sephzilla · Oct 13, 2017

Boss Doggie · Oct 13, 2017

Haunted said:
OP's strawman doesn't really hold up, of course it isn't inherently better.

but...

It's less about strawman though. I'm talking about random people making that claim. Most of the time, what they are complaining (e.g. lazily designed character) is attributed towards the medium rather than well... design. It's often using the mindset that "something is done hard ergo it will produce something better"

Extra Sauce · Oct 13, 2017

I've never seen 3D animation that looks as good as the best Ghibli has to offer.

If hand-drawn animation is not inherently superior, it's only because the vast amount of hard work that goes into something like Princess Mononoke doesn't magically come free with the medium.

Bishop89 · Oct 13, 2017

my first ever hand (digital) drawn animation is superior to all CGI animation

https://hairstylr.deviantart.com/art/Random-first-flash-100815752

lol

Crossing Eden · Oct 13, 2017

old manatee said:
CGI hasn't yet reached the peaks of hand-drawn animation.

As a CGI animator, this statement is bullshit.

LordOfChaos · Oct 13, 2017

There can be /bad/ hand drawn animation, but 3D graphics in animes are usually clunky low framerate ordeals.

btrboyev · Oct 13, 2017

OP you used a couple of examples of cartoons that were intentially made on the cheapest budget as possible. Masters of the universe especially. One season of that show was in the neighborhood of 65 episodes. And they were produced in about a year or less.

Thats not really fair is it?

Mendrox · Oct 13, 2017

"Hand drawn animation is not inherently superior!"

*posts worst offenders which are know and not once the godlike animations from other shows*

Of course there are more shit looking episodes in many shows than amazing ones. Hand drawn animation is super super expensive if you want to look it good (or you kill people by only throwing money for food at them because animating is their passion and companies act like they don't care).

Hand drawn will always be superior to anything else. Good example how good hand drawn animation can look? Cuphead. Show me one game or show that compares to that.

Ottaro · Oct 13, 2017

Bishop89 said:
yes... average.

God this is so hype.

Skellig Gra · Oct 13, 2017

I wouldn't say most BS claim ever but its dumb because even digital animation is still the work of a skilled artist.

Boss Doggie · Oct 13, 2017

btrboyev said:
OP you used a couple of examples of cartoons that were intentially made on the cheapest budget as possible. Masters of the universe especially. One season of that show was in the neighborhood of 65 episodes. And they were produced in about a year or less.

That's not really fair is it?

Mendrox said:
"Hand drawn animation is not inherently superior!"

*posts worst offenders which are know and not once the godlike animations from other shows*

Of course there are more shit looking episodes in many shows than amazing ones. Hand drawn animation is super super expensive if you want to look it good (or you kill people by only throwing money for food at them because animating is their passion and companies act like they don't care).

Hand drawn will always be superior to anything else. Good example how good hand drawn animation can look? Cuphead. Show me one game or show that compares to that.

You're missing the crux of my argument though - I'm targeting the inherent "work done = quality" mindset.

And most of the time this argument is used in cartoons nowadays as well, so it's applicable. I'm not comparing movies here - you usually see this argument towards "these shows today!" I didn't even bring up anything for the other side.

Also Cuphead, funny you mention that is while that game is really great and its visuals are amazing... if you actually look at the cartoons they are based from, they are actually more of an acquired taste and is less about animation only but animation + set pieces, like music (see Betty Boop's shows). And okay if you ask - Okami. Captures the sumi-e painting style and blending it in a 3D world.

Hello? This is Hailun! · Oct 13, 2017

The only thing that matters is budget.

Glass Shark · Oct 13, 2017

Always-honest · Oct 13, 2017

100% nonsense

Hello? This is Hailun! said:
The only thing that matters is budget.

And talent. But yeah, budget and time. And talent.

muteki · Oct 13, 2017

Good hand-drawn is good, bad hand-drawn is bad.

Good cgi is good, bad cgi is bad.

Mixing the two methods is....hit or miss.

Kthulhu · Oct 13, 2017

Hello? This is Hailun! said:
The only thing that matters is budget.

You can have a decent budget and still make an awful show, CG or not.

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"Hand drawn animation is inherently superior" is the most bs claim I've ever seen.

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