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"Hand drawn animation is inherently superior" is the most bs claim I've ever seen.
- Thread starter Boss Doggie
- Start date
I'd love to know how new Simpsons is drawn. Do they intend to make it look so bland or is it simply the cheaper option?
Dice//
Banned
It's easy to use some of the water stuff (and like Tangled was for hair, Moana hit it out of the park for what it did for animating water), but for concept-to-visual, I think this is the best 4 seconds from Moana:
You get a lot more...individual character in hand drawn; I think that's why "hand drawn products" just have a 'genuine--ness' and dedication to the craft that's just not as felt with CG. CG can be more impressive, and it technically it's kinda accurate, but hand-drawn animation is more raw and a design based on the artist's own talent.
One great example is that hand-PAINTED Van Gogh movie that's in the works
https://youtu.be/47h6pQ6StCk
Both have their merits for sure; but I think I'm more impressed by what hand-drawn can do with representing the individual artist. CG is more 'assembly line'.
EvilRedEye
Member
I feel like it's worth mentioning in this thread how Disney have had a long history of clearly thinking that hand-drawn animation is terrible for rendering vehicles. In Pinocchio they used stop-motion for moving carriages and transferred it across using an early form of xeroxography and then in 101 Dalmatians they filmed model cars with black lines painted on them and painted on the xeroxed footage - the animator even compares it to modern CGI in the making of doc.
Then in the run up to using digital link and paint they started using CGI for vehicles.
So as much as we think of CGI as a modern trend in animation, there are areas where animators seem to have been waiting for the tech to come along since forever.
Then in the run up to using digital link and paint they started using CGI for vehicles.
So as much as we think of CGI as a modern trend in animation, there are areas where animators seem to have been waiting for the tech to come along since forever.
BlackGoku03
Member
I think it was this bit with the Doctor.
This is a weird example, as why the classic, hand drawn version is miles better, there's absolutely nothing stopping that from being a 1:1 recreation digitally.
That's correct. I've heard rumors they may have traced over some CG but Otomo says there's only one scene with CG.
-tetsuo-
Unlimited Capacity
I'm on team whatever this is
This show looks so fucking terrible i cant even watch it
The idea is if you give a studio enough time or money they can give you quality animation.
2d or 3d animation are not inherently better or worse. Audiences are bias towards one or the other based on what they grew up with.
When each is "bad", it is for different reasons. DBZ is bad because they are animating shows weekly, but can get away with it because people like the property. When an audience connects with stories, characters, and topic, generally, they will overlook the "quality" of any medium. Just look at You-tube and memes. Thing with low production values are loved equally if not more that works with high quality.
3d can have large budgets , talent, and time, but suffer because stories are done by committee, marketed tested to death, removing any spark of originality. For every Toy Story, there a dozens of generic smirking animal slapstick comedies.
3d suffer the same problem as live action right now- the false belief that more shit crammed on a screen with make up for the lack of decent script.
When each is "bad", it is for different reasons. DBZ is bad because they are animating shows weekly, but can get away with it because people like the property. When an audience connects with stories, characters, and topic, generally, they will overlook the "quality" of any medium. Just look at You-tube and memes. Thing with low production values are loved equally if not more that works with high quality.
3d can have large budgets , talent, and time, but suffer because stories are done by committee, marketed tested to death, removing any spark of originality. For every Toy Story, there a dozens of generic smirking animal slapstick comedies.
3d suffer the same problem as live action right now- the false belief that more shit crammed on a screen with make up for the lack of decent script.
omg misty... I miss you ;_;
Seriously though, they have been just knocking it out the park with Sun/Moon.
Aaron Strife
Banned
Id definitely put myself in the camp of hand-drawn at its best is better than CG at its best, but thats also completely a personal preference and Im well aware that its not a binary distinction as plenty of hand-drawn films are blends of traditional hand-drawn with CG elements.
That being said I just spammed a bunch of Thief and the Cobbler gifs in a thread earlier and fuck me this movie is so good.
That being said I just spammed a bunch of Thief and the Cobbler gifs in a thread earlier and fuck me this movie is so good.
I think its funny how I feel Pokémon (and similar kids gotta catch em all-type shows of the era) really reinforced the anime is cheap and bad stereotype in the US because the animation in Sun & Moon is stellar. Pokémon has always been improving from series to series but Id say Best Wishes is where it started getting consistently decent.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
That entire sequence was likely the hardest sequence to work on in the entire film. And it's jawdropping.It's easy to use some of the water stuff (and like Tangled was for hair, Moana hit it out of the park for what it did for animating water), but for concept-to-visual, I think this is the best 4 seconds from Moana:
This genuinely isn't true in anyway shape or form.
What did he mean by this?
Member
Its like when people say practical effects are inherently better. Theyre not
Ok maybe I should watch Moana now.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
What the hell is going on here.And even anime isn't immune to shit like this.
Is it because people think something is hard, ergo it will produce something good? "Drawing with hands is hard ergo the outcome will definitely be good because it is harder to do!"
This is extremely false. Watch DBZ again.
Gentleman Jack
Member
freiza is choking on a pretzel and goku is slapping him on the back to help him cough it out.
Is anyone actually arguing that traditional animation is inherently superior and the worst examples of it are better than all cg? I've never heard that.
But are, for example, Ghibli movies more beautiful than every piece of barf Pixar churns out? In my opinion yes. When Marnie Was There is one of the most visually stunning movies I've seen and yes I know cg is used to supplement these films.
But are, for example, Ghibli movies more beautiful than every piece of barf Pixar churns out? In my opinion yes. When Marnie Was There is one of the most visually stunning movies I've seen and yes I know cg is used to supplement these films.
Maybe this is more a matter of art direction rather than strictly animation, but I also loved Song of the Sea:
https://i.imgur.com/YrfK8Su.gifv
https://i.imgur.com/YrfK8Su.gifv
And it can look really bad in other works where it stands out too much and clashes with the surroundings.
Hit or miss.
mentallyinept
Banned
Inherently?
No.
In Practice?
Depends on budget.
Lower budget => Hand drawn typically wins.
Higher budget => CGI typically wins.
No.
In Practice?
Depends on budget.
Lower budget => Hand drawn typically wins.
Higher budget => CGI typically wins.
Sure it's not inherently better, but there is far more beautiful hand drawn animation out there than beautiful computer animation. 2D computer animation is a bit of a grey area, but when it comes to 3D computer animation, hand-drawn style 9 out of 10 times is just so much better looking IMO.
In the works? Boy, have I got some good news for you. It's coming out in less than a month and it's absolutely beautiful, I highly recommend it.
In the works? Boy, have I got some good news for you. It's coming out in less than a month and it's absolutely beautiful, I highly recommend it.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
And just to reiterate the point. The tools behind 3D animation are now where they need to be in this day and age to not hamper artists as much.
As in the turning point of when it finally started to look good and age well or what's currently the best out there?
According to wikipedia:
Computer-generated imagery was also used in the film, primarily to animate the pattern indicator used by Doctor Ōnishi, but it was additionally used to plot the paths of falling objects, model parallax effects on backgrounds, and tweak lighting and lens flares
To say that Akira isn't a hand-drawn anime and falls into CGI is reaching. 99% of it is hand drawn. GitS is also primarily hand drawn where CGI is only used in a few spots like computer/map readouts. The majority of each movie is hand drawn and they're gorgeous.
I feel like it's unfair to use Disney/Pixar or Dreamworks stuff to prove the point that 3D animation can be beautiful. Of course those films are beautiful, they are made with the highest possible budgets with the best 3D animators out there. If you look at lower-budget 3D animated films or even medium budget ones like Sausage Party, you can see a huge loss in quality.
thepenguin55
Member
I personally feel like there used to be a HUGE divide between hand drawn and CG in terms charm and personality but I think its safe to say that CG has come a LONG way over the past 30 years. Having said that, I would still argue that some of the worst hand drawn animation is still better than some of the worst CG, but really my main issue is with shows that historically have or would have been hand drawn with paper and ink that are now drawn digitally.
The Simpsons is a great example of this. I don't exactly remember what season it was where the change happened but fairly late into the 90s The Simpsons went from being hand drawn with ink and paper to being drawn digitally and just so much charm and personality was lost in the process. I would continue watching the show for quite awhile after the change but it was never quite the same. I've checked in with the Simpsons over the years and while the animation and art is definitely better now that it was when they first moved to digital the show still just looks so clean, sterile and boring now.
The Simpsons is a great example of this. I don't exactly remember what season it was where the change happened but fairly late into the 90s The Simpsons went from being hand drawn with ink and paper to being drawn digitally and just so much charm and personality was lost in the process. I would continue watching the show for quite awhile after the change but it was never quite the same. I've checked in with the Simpsons over the years and while the animation and art is definitely better now that it was when they first moved to digital the show still just looks so clean, sterile and boring now.
Pie and Beans
Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
"Hand drawn" is a quick go to phrase that doesn't get to the bottom of why a certain style of animation is superior:
Frame by frame. When every frame is its own creation, you can trick the human eye with squash and stretch/smear frames that make for more fluid motion than exists in reality. 3D and Flash-esque puppetry just move skeletons about that look stiffer for this very reason and have to resort to motion blur approximation to seem less so.
In recent years, 3d animators have chosen to combat this by literally recreating squash and stretch effects on 3D models in a frame by frame approach.
The end result is amazing shit like Xrd and Dragon Ball Fighterz. If you can't beat em, join em.
Frame by frame. When every frame is its own creation, you can trick the human eye with squash and stretch/smear frames that make for more fluid motion than exists in reality. 3D and Flash-esque puppetry just move skeletons about that look stiffer for this very reason and have to resort to motion blur approximation to seem less so.
In recent years, 3d animators have chosen to combat this by literally recreating squash and stretch effects on 3D models in a frame by frame approach.
The end result is amazing shit like Xrd and Dragon Ball Fighterz. If you can't beat em, join em.
Given the ideal budget, time and talent, both 2D and 3D animation will produce results that are absolutely amazing. At lower budgets though I do feel that 2D gets better results since 3D requires so many disciplines to pull off well. You need a modeller, a rigger, a texture artist, a lighter, and an animator, all requiring very different skillsets. Whereas for 2D handdrawn animation, you just mostly need an animator and a background artist so the entry costs for that medium are much lower.
At the end of the day though, as an animator that works in both 2D and 3D, the most determining factor for how good something looks is the budget (both money and time)
At the end of the day though, as an animator that works in both 2D and 3D, the most determining factor for how good something looks is the budget (both money and time)
The budgets of those films are not dissimilar to the budgets used to produced the exemplars of 2D animated films this thread is replete with.
Fancyarcher
Member
Well both the Hanna Barbera shows and Filmmation (not just Lou Schumer), are not great examples of hand-drawn animation, because they were made for TV, and they had to cut-corners, since the budget was not there, especially given the era, since they weren't working in film, additionally they had to make several shows a year. Same with even anime in the 60's, which also used recycled animation, and had stiff looking characters as a result. It's not like these animators came into these cartoons with the intention of making "poor animation" or something. If a look at an actual rare drawn-cell from that era, you can see that too. It's why when Disney did Ducktales in the 80's, it was considered risky to have an animated show with that kind of bigger budget, but it paid off thankfully.
Plus those "cheaper animated" shows could occasionally have small picture moments of beauty too. I mean filmmation used rotoscoping for a few of there shows.
And the reason people say hand-drawn animation is superior is because early CGI animation like all CGI, was really "rough" and video-game-like, since it was constantly changing. It's improved a lot since then though, and I don't mind CGI animation at all, if I'm being honest. I just wish we'd see more 2D animated films really.
Plus those "cheaper animated" shows could occasionally have small picture moments of beauty too. I mean filmmation used rotoscoping for a few of there shows.
And the reason people say hand-drawn animation is superior is because early CGI animation like all CGI, was really "rough" and video-game-like, since it was constantly changing. It's improved a lot since then though, and I don't mind CGI animation at all, if I'm being honest. I just wish we'd see more 2D animated films really.
BlackGoku03
Member
There are both great and terrible examples of both lol.
Anyway, look at these smooth Patlabor gifs
These are from the second one, right?
I think the bleached out colors of the sequel. There's some other amazing shots in there as well:
I tend to have a preference for hand-drawn/2D/cell style vs. some of the 3D/CG stuff I've seen, at least where anime is concerned. The animation in the latter just somehow feels more 'wooden' at times, and I'm not entirely sure on why (less frame-by-frame stuff and more blur/tweening, maybe?). The best CG is stuff that looks like it could have been cell animated. 
Like, I popped Twitch on yesterday and there was something on Twitch Presents (RWBY?) and the combat animations or whatever just felt really jarring. Berserk is also especially egregious - for all its faults, I vastly prefer the look/style of the 1997 series.
There's a lot of really good Western 3D stuff, though. Some great examples in this thread.
Like, I popped Twitch on yesterday and there was something on Twitch Presents (RWBY?) and the combat animations or whatever just felt really jarring. Berserk is also especially egregious - for all its faults, I vastly prefer the look/style of the 1997 series.
There's a lot of really good Western 3D stuff, though. Some great examples in this thread.
Messofanego
Banned
A Boss Doggie thread without bringing up DreamWorks? Most impressive.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
more like bad drawings are not caused by the format and just because something is "harder" to do doesn't mean it is better
it is something people blurt out when trying to find something wrong in an animation
FlashbladeGAF
Member
exmachina64
Banned
Fixed.
Id definitely put myself in the camp of hand-drawn at its best is better than CG at its best, but thats also completely a personal preference and Im well aware that its not a binary distinction as plenty of hand-drawn films are blends of traditional hand-drawn with CG elements.
That being said I just spammed a bunch of Thief and the Cobbler gifs in a thread earlier and fuck me this movie is so good.
I think its funny how I feel Pokémon (and similar kids gotta catch em all-type shows of the era) really reinforced the anime is cheap and bad stereotype in the US because the animation in Sun & Moon is stellar. Pokémon has always been improving from series to series but Id say Best Wishes is where it started getting consistently decent.
Thief and the Cobbler is beautiful.
Unless I'm mistaken does GitS also only use CG in those moments where the movie shows literal computer graphics like holograms etc. It was GitS 2.0 that went as far as replacing 2D animated scenes with CG and from what I know do most people prefer the original
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKRwAgPy2AE
The scene when the bikers ride into the tunnel, the CD jukebox in the bar and the doctors pattern indicator.
Anyway, the whole "Traditional is better" argument comes from a place of ignorance regarding how both styles of animation are produced.
People do massively underestimate how much effort and talent go into producing good cg animation.
Pretty sure Akira has been stated to only have one CG scene, and i'ts the one you posted the gif of. The others you mentioned are not.
The absolute opposite