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Nintendo researches GPGPU powered cloud computing

W

wsippel

Banned
This tidbit was released the day Xbox One got announced and didn't get all that much attention, but I think it deserves a thread. Nintendo's European R&D outfit, aptly named NERD, is apparently working on something similar to Microsoft's cloud approach/ promise:

Alexandre Delattre said:
The developers at Nintendo headquarters need to spend their time developing the actual platform, so I think we’d like to explore areas that they don’t have time for. For example the possibilities which are opened up by the combination of cloud technologies and new software paradigms like general purpose GPU programming.
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http://www.nintendo.co.uk/Iwata-Ask...-Dreams/9-NERD-s-Goals-and-Dreams-759323.html

It should be noted that while the statement seems rather vague, NERD has indeed hired, and is still hiring, researchers in the field of cloud technology, heterogenous computing, and GPGPU development. Doesn't mean we'll see some results any time soon if ever, but I don't think Nintendo would publish this piece if they didn't believe they were on the right track. Especially considering this Iwata Asks seems to be mostly aimed at potential future NERD employees.

So this apparently isn't about trivial cloud applications like storing save games and profiles on a server or something, it's seemingly about stuffing some servers with a couple of Nvidia Titans or Intel Knights Corner accelerators and using those things to provide additional computational performance over the internet. And there might actually be a practical application for something like this in gaming (same thing is true for Microsoft of course). To quote myself from a different thread:

Let's say you want to accurately compute destruction physics based on the point and angle of impact and the energy transferred. A game can tell with a very high probability what will happen long before it actually happens, sends a request to some Titan powered cloud server, the server computes the actual physics and sends back animation data. The computation is long done and transferred even before the impact actually happens, and the game just needs to play back the animation once triggered. And if there's no internet connection, you'll get a simpler simulation or just a pre-canned animation, so there wouldn't even necessarily be an online requirement.
Click to expand...
 
B

BY2K

Membero Americo
So the Xbox One's secret sauce is actually real? (Depending on the application it requires, I presume.)
 
H

Hung_real

Member
hXKkyCJ.gif
 
P

PreyingShark

Member
ginger ninja said:
well than, PC gaming it is for next gen
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Uh, they're just saying that they're researching things to see if there's a way to make use of the cloud that doesn't make people want to shoot themselves. Remember, Iwata already said that cloud tech, as it currently is, is not good for gaming because there's too much input delay so don't worry about it.
 
O

orioto

Good Art™
I'll be amazed when this whole cloud thing happen cause everytime i hear about it, it deoesn't make any sense to me.. How do you pre-plan and pre-compute, with some lag, an element of a real time game.. Wouldn't it force a really scripted context ? I mean aren't videogame more and more about dynamic and real time things ? So how is that a progress..
How does that even work anyway...
 
B

BY2K

Membero Americo
So they could use Cloud to calculate physics send the data back to the game and do a playback? How does that work? And could it do other things, like AI?
 
W

watershed

Banned
I'm interested in what this is but NERD largely works on tech issues that we will never notice in a final game or app. They are behind the scenes folks.
 
W

wsippel

Banned
I am Michael Bolton said:
N.E.R.D.? Oh, Nintendo.
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It was actually the team in France that came up with that name. More specifically their Chief Production Officer.



Godslay said:
But I thought it was all bullshit? GAF never fails to impress.
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I believe there are useful applications for this, but it's not as simple as Microsoft made it sound. It can only work for very specific tasks under very specific conditions, not to boost the power of a system as a whole. It won't help the console push more polygons or pixels, but could do wonders in other areas.
 
D

Dragon

Banned
Godslay said:
But I thought it was all bullshit? GAF never fails to impress.
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What Microsoft said about the power of their box was pure unadulterated bullshit. Not sure what this has to do with this article but then again terrible strawman arguments aren't something I understand anyway.
 
M

markot

Banned
It's bullshit now. But that doesn't mean it didn't have potential.

It's currently virtual boy. In 15 years it might be occulus rift.
 
W

wsippel

Banned
orioto said:
I'll be amazed when this whole cloud thing happen cause everytime i hear about it, it deoesn't make any sense to me.. How do you pre-plan and pre-compute, with some lag, an element of a real time game.. Wouldn't it force a really scripted context ? I mean aren't videogame more and more about dynamic and real time things ? So how is that a progress..
How does that even work anyway...
Click to expand...
It's actually pretty simple. Let me go with my example: You have a game like Battlefield or something. You fire a missile at a building. The missile will take, say, two seconds to reach its target. But the game engine already knows where it's going to hit and how powerful the blast will be the moment you pulled the trigger, so unless the missile gets destroyed for some reason, or some other unexpected things happen, the engine has a pretty clear idea what's going to happen two seconds from now. But it doesn't know what it'll look like.

At that point, if you have the infrastructure in place, the engine can send its projection to a very high performance cloud server, that server computes the results of said projection, and sends the results back before the missile actually hits the target. Once the missile hits, the precalculated data from the cloud is applied, but if something unexpected happens, if the missile is shot down before it even reaches the target for example, the results can simply be discarded - no harm done.
 
D

Darryl

Banned
orioto said:
I'll be amazed when this whole cloud thing happen cause everytime i hear about it, it deoesn't make any sense to me.. How do you pre-plan and pre-compute, with some lag, an element of a real time game.. Wouldn't it force a really scripted context ? I mean aren't videogame more and more about dynamic and real time things ? So how is that a progress..
How does that even work anyway...
Click to expand...

in some rare circumstances a game can know what is going to happen before it happens. like in a game where you fire a rocket launcher you can instantly figure out the collision area the moment you push the trigger and you have the entire missle travel distance to send that data to the cloud and get back simplified instructions for displaying the fallout just in case it successfully impacts as originally planned. its just stuff really questionable stuff and i can't imagine anyone finding a whole lot of use for it anytime in the near future.
 
F

fred

Member
Nintendo have been working on this for years as far as I remember. I'm pretty sure Nintendo either bought outright or have major shares in a company suited for this a couple of years ago. Can't remember the name oftthe company now. Can anyone else remember something about this..?
 
M

markot

Banned
wsippel said:
It's actually pretty simple. Let me go with my example: You have a game like Battlefield or something. You fire a missile at a building. The missile will take, say, two seconds to reach its target. But the game engine already knows where it's going to hit and how powerful the blast will be the moment you pulled the trigger, so unless the missile gets destroyed for some reason, or some other unexpected things happen, the engine has a pretty clear idea what's going to happen two seconds from now. But it doesn't know what it'll look like.

At that point, if you have the infrastructure in place, the engine can send its projection to a very high performance cloud server, that server computes the results of said projection, and sends the results back before the missile actually hits the target. Once the missile hits, the precalculated data from the cloud is applied, but if something unexpected happens, if the missile is shot down before it even reaches the target for example, the results can simply be discarded - no harm done.
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So, useless and expensive.
 
G

Godslay

Banned
wsippel said:
It was actually the team in France that came up with that name. More specifically their Chief Production Officer.

I believe there are useful applications for this, but it's not as simple as Microsoft made it sound. It can only work for very specific tasks under very specific conditions, not to boost the power of a system as a whole. It won't help the console push more polygons or pixels, but could do wonders in other areas.
Click to expand...

So you are telling me that when MS as well as USC (iirc) researched AI distributed over the cloud it was bs? Granted it was a prototype using Quake III, but they clearly concluded that up to roughly 1 second of latency distributed AI performs better than local AI. It's in it's infancy, but there are very real applications for this.

Dragon said:
What Microsoft said about the power of their box was pure unadulterated bullshit. Not sure what this has to do with this article but then again terrible strawman arguments aren't something I understand anyway.
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Cloud computing is not bullshit. That's the only point. I don't care who uses it. It's in it's infancy for games, but I'm sure it will grow as an application. Especially if someone funds it on a large scale, like it looks like MS is attempting to do.
 
S

Somnid

Member
fred said:
Nintendo have been working on this for years as far as I remember. I'm pretty sure Nintendo either bought outright or have major shares in a company suited for this a couple of years ago. Can't remember the name oftthe company now. Can anyone else remember something about this..?
Click to expand...

You're probably thinking of this. Nintendo NERD used to be Mobiclip, Nintendo acquired it recently.
 
F

fred

Member
markot said:
So, useless and expensive.
Click to expand...

And dependant on a half decent internet connection. We're years away from the average gamer having a gooddenough connection to make this feasible.

Edit:Cheers Somnid, it was indeed Mobiclip I was thinking of. Think they bought majority shares around the same time that the Wii U was announced.
 
W

wsippel

Banned
markot said:
So, useless and expensive.
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To be perfectly honest, I can't think of many worthwhile applications either. I sure hope NERD does, because Nintendo is apparently willing to spend time and money on that project.

At the same time, I don't really think it would be all that expensive, actually. This approach doesn't require one server per client as some of Sony's cloud phantasies do. A single machine could provide hundreds of simultaneous players with data, because the computational performance isn't required every frame for every user.
 
G

Godslay

Banned
fred said:
And dependant on a half decent internet connection. We're years away from the average gamer having a gooddenough connection to make this feasible.
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Not specifically. Like I said above. Distributed AI calculations with 1 second latency outperforms local AI. Beyond that local AI is better, because the information is stale. 1 second latency is a lifetime. So it is feasible in real world conditions in this instance.
 
I

i-Lo

Member
Over dat ping unfriendly wi-fi it's going to be fantastic.

So it looks like WiiU may indeed end up being more powerful that PS4 which will be weaker than Xbone. And on paper, PS4 has the best local hardware. Oh, how cruel and clowded is its fate.
 
W

wsippel

Banned
Godslay said:
So you are telling me that when MS as well as USC (iirc) researched AI distributed over the cloud it was bs? Granted it was a prototype using Quake III, but they clearly concluded that up to roughly 1 second of latency distributed AI performs better than local AI. It's in it's infancy, but there are very real applications for this.
Click to expand...
No, AI is actually one area where such a thing makes a whole lot of sense. The Microsoft statement "10 times faster than 360, 40 times faster by using the power of the cloud" however is oversimplified, overgeneralized, and just plain bullshit. The difference would probably be much bigger than that in certain cases, but it would make no difference whatsoever in other areas - and there's absolutely no way to form an average.
 
G

Godslay

Banned
wsippel said:
No, AI is actually one area where such a thing makes a whole lot of sense. The Microsoft statement "10 times faster than 360, 40 times faster by using the power of the cloud" however is oversimplified, overgeneralized, and just plain bullshit. The difference would probably be much bigger than that in certain cases, but it would make no difference whatsoever in other areas - and there's absolutely no way to form an average.
Click to expand...

Okay then we are on the same page. The numbers might be bs, but it's a viable tech. We just need someone to make it happen in the real world. At least on a console.
 
W

wsippel

Banned
Godslay said:
Okay then we are on the same page. The numbers might be bs, but it's a viable tech. We just need someone to make it happen in the real world. At least on a console.
Click to expand...
Yeah, we're totally in agreement here. This is certainly viable, but it's not "free performance" the way Microsoft tried to sell it. It can be - in certain games, for certain things, under certain conditions. Not in general, not for every game.
 
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