LittleJohnny
Banned
Oh wow, owned. I can defnitely see the road reflecting, but I guess real life looks off to them lol
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EuroGamer: More details on the BALANCE of XB1
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Oh wow, owned. I can defnitely see the road reflecting, but I guess real life looks off to them lol
SwiftDeath
Member
Oh wow, owned. I can defnitely see the road reflecting, but I guess real life looks off to them lol
Admitting when you're wrong is far harder than admitting when you are right
Kudos johnny
Should still look nice but not that technically impressive
Doesn't MS have specialized silicon such as SHAPE to handle things like audio that would normally have taken up GPGPU resources?
So does the PS4...
Ok, now i understand what You are saying, that reflection isnt completely physically correct. Yes, i agree, but screenspace reflection is just a hack. They could compress image on car-to-car bases to make reflection on the hood edges more physically correct, but they probably didnt bother and just stick to standard material properties.
Still, its screen space reflection like in every other game and its as correct as in every other game. Btw its also quite high precision and resolution in comparison to other titles, which is quite impressive for 60fps title.
Both consoles do, but the Xbox One will still likely have more of the CPU/GPU reserved for non gaming tasks due to the snap functionality and split screen multitasking.
Dictator93
Member
You are most likely not really ever going to use GPGPU for audio. Either they shove it to the PS4s dedicated audio or have it piggy back on CPU.
I can see many more interestng things seeing GPGPU being used for.
I wasn't comparing it with the PS4, I was addressing what was quoted.
Also, from one of Cerny's presentations, the GPGPU (CUs) are used for non-trivial audio.
Unless I'm reading this slide incorrectly. Excuse me if this has been addressed already, I'm still catching up since all we have to go by with PS4 is leaks and stuff Cerny says.
That's true of every computer under the sun, including the PS4 which I assume will be able to do some sort of multitasking which will require a certain amount of GPU resources.
I'm not the one who dropped youtube links to prove a point, which look absolutely nothing like the Forza gif, and then go with the "well the bonnet in forza's car has more of an angle and it's different conditions and stuff". So yeah, the burden of proof is on the person trying to provide an argument to defend a baseless claim.
Besides, a Maserati Grancabrio has a fairly aggressive bonnet, a further curvature would only make the "squashed" appearance even worse, and "us" seems to include a couple of people who are fine with the effect in Forza, while as many others find it, like I do, off.
Maybe you can see that the overall reflection looks completely off in this direct comparison. Essentially, the one you see in the Forza gif looks more or less like what you'd expect to see from a flat water surface directly underneath the stuff from the environment it's reflecting. But not what you see in the supposedly equivalent effect you'd normally see.
Chobel
Member
I wasn't comparing it with the PS4, I was addressing what was quoted.
Also, from one of Cerny's presentations, the GPGPU (CUs) are used for non-trivial audio.
Unless I'm reading this slide incorrectly. Excuse me if this has been addressed already, I'm still catching up since all we have to go by with PS4 is leaks and stuff Cerny says.
SHAPE can't do audio raycasting.
Why do you need GPU resources to do multitasking? AFAIK multitasking don't need to use GPU.
Audio can be pretty resource intensive. I believe that in the X360 one CPU core was dedicated to audio and with the PS3, RSX was responsible for audio.
shinra-bansho
Member
I think other people have already talked about this? I don't think the XB1's fixed function audio chip can do things like audio raycasting.I wasn't comparing it with the PS4, I was addressing what was quoted.
Also, from one of Cerny's presentations, the GPGPU (CUs) are used for non-trivial audio.
Unless I'm reading this slide incorrectly. Excuse me if this has been addressed already, I'm still catching up since all we have to go by with PS4 is leaks and stuff Cerny says.
Fake edit: beaten.
This is a weird myth that persists, stemming from a B3D post about a particular game that used a thread of one of the cores for audio, iirc.
Shape is only 15GFlops quite a leap to 400.
I wasn't comparing it with the PS4, I was addressing what was quoted.
Also, from one of Cerny's presentations, the GPGPU (CUs) are used for non-trivial audio.
Unless I'm reading this slide incorrectly. Excuse me if this has been addressed already, I'm still catching up since all we have to go by with PS4 is leaks and stuff Cerny says.
Raycasting for audio cannot be done on SHAPE. It also cannot be done on the PS4 audio chip to add "Balance" to the sentence.
Also the 400GFLOPs which would be done on GPGPU would not include standard audio, as it would be done on the PS4 audio chip, anything done on the GPGPU of the PS4 would have to be either done on GPGPU on xb1 or dropped entirely.
Where did I say it could. I posted this slide when talking about Cerny saying from his presentation was possible with GP compute with PS4's beefed up CUs. That's the reason Sony beefed up the CUs. Cerny wanted a system that was easy to develop for but difficult to master.
Edit: I'm responding to two different replies and you guys are getting the arguments mixed up.
I wasn't comparing it with the PS4, I was addressing what was quoted.
Also, from one of Cerny's presentations, the GPGPU (CUs) are used for non-trivial audio.
Unless I'm reading this slide incorrectly. Excuse me if this has been addressed already, I'm still catching up since all we have to go by with PS4 is leaks and stuff Cerny says.
I hope you don't think Shape is going to do Audio Raycasting with it's 15GFLOPS.
Not at all the same. PS4 uses some sort of instant switch and dump functionality putting one or the other in an extreme resource limited idle state. It doesn't actually have to run a game and Skype or Web browser etc at the same time, just one or the other, whilst keeping either in a paused or limited state. Xbox One on the other hand can actually do these things at the same time (split screen), so must have the adequate resources reserved. Not to just have them running in an idle or paused state, but to have them running in a full state too.
the only time audio would take up GPGPU is if it was doing raycasting.
Chobel
Member
Correct If I'm wrong but you said
then you showed in your next comment this
So I assumed you're talking about audio raycasting.
Oops! Missed this one.
Multi-tasking, running more than one thing at once. If the PS4's OS needs to be available at anytime, it will have to be resident in memory. And with all of the stuff the PS4 OS will be able to do, I think it will need a certain amount of GPU resources allocated to it.
Correct If I'm wrong but you said
then you showed in your next comment this
So I assumed you're talking about audio raycasting.
Okay, I see. Yeah, I thought I made it clear that I was changing points. Didn't want to create a separate post just to do that.
it is nice when considering the two consoles multi tasking and GPU allocations like playing a game on PC.
One console, alt tabs out of the game to firefox, so the Game and firefox do not need to be rendered at the same time so much less GPU needs to be reserved for firefox, However the XB1 simply snaps the game to the side in windowed mode and broses firefox on the other side of the screen so bot need to be rendered, so the firefox allocation must be reserved so the game can still display when firefox is open.
shinra-bansho
Member
I'm confused what you were asking in the first post then - about SHAPE off-loading tasks that would normally take up GPGPU resources? Did you mean CPU resources - since you followed up later with something about "audio taking up a 360 CPU core"? ElTorro has a really good post regarding that, which I'll see if I can find.
I was responding to the post that questioned where XONE was going to get the extra non-GPU compute from. I mentioned that there was SHAPE and some other dedicated processors.
My point was that if there's ever the need for the OS and a game to be running at the same time, you'll have to be able to guarantee that there will be GPU resources available for the OS. The only way to do that is to allocate some up front. There's going to be that one person that pauses Killzone to bring up a how-to video on Youtube.
The same is true for memory resources. That's why both machines have a set amount reserved for the OS.
Chobel
Member
Unless I'm missing something, the stuff that PS4 OS does don't need GPU while a game is running, because while the game is running the OS won't draw anything in screen. In case of multitasking it will suspend the game and show the apps.
Maybe you can see that the overall reflection looks completely off in this direct comparison. Essentially, the one you see in the Forza gif looks more or less like what you'd expect to see from a flat water surface directly underneath the stuff from the environment it's reflecting. But not what you see in the supposedly equivalent effect you'd normally see.
Now You are over exaggerating. Its actually pretty close in Your comparison except for edge of the hood.
ElTorro answered this already in response to DieH@rd.
Laughing_Man__
Neo Member
So what your saying is, I can balance it anywhere and it won't fall over? Good to know.
shinra-bansho
Member
I may still be misunderstanding what you're saying, but are you suggesting that were a game to require the equivalent of 4 CUs worth of compute resources on the PS4 GPU for non-graphical tasks, that the fixed function hardware in the XB1 would mean that the same game wouldn't require similar GPU compute resources on the XB1...?
phosphor112
Banned
Cell did audio on PS3 in it's first party titles. It's capabilities as a "DSP alternative" is unmatched compared to other methods.
AMD cards have hardware for handling video encoding & decoding so pulling up a video when you pause a game shouldn't be a problem.
No I'm not. It's not just the edge, it's the fact that the overall curvature is wrong and that on the Forza pic it's not sqaushed at all as it should be (check the house vs its reflection in the top pic). The stuff in Forza (arch, hill) is also a lot further away from the car so it should be even worse.
Things far in the distance shouldn't be reflecting that much off and that far on a fairly "flat" surface that is placed more or less directly underneath your POV. That's why you normally see something very squashed and limited to the extreme edge of the hood, while things more or less directly above you (trees for instance) looks roughly directly mirrored.
Been enjoying this back and forth since I came to see why SenjutusuSage was banned. One of the most hilarious things about his demeanor is that he flat out admitted that one of the reasons he was so heavily championing the Xbone was because of that supposed personal friend who was a MS developer. Talk about some crazy devotion.
One of the only things that concern me about GPU utilisation on the PS4 is potential failure rate. With async fine grain compute could utilisation become so high as to threaten the life of the GPU?
These are PC GPUs and unlike in PCs a console is likely to thrash them hard for a longer period of time. Will this result in more heat generated? Slightly off topic I know but this has always been a bit of a mystery for me, maybe I've got this wrong? We've seen this generation that certain games have killed machines after a few minutes.
Hopefully given the low TDP of the consoles this won't be a problem, but still makes me wonder.
These are PC GPUs and unlike in PCs a console is likely to thrash them hard for a longer period of time. Will this result in more heat generated? Slightly off topic I know but this has always been a bit of a mystery for me, maybe I've got this wrong? We've seen this generation that certain games have killed machines after a few minutes.
Hopefully given the low TDP of the consoles this won't be a problem, but still makes me wonder.
SwiftDeath
Member
I don't see how GPGPU would make the GPU run any hotter
Isn't it just re-purposing the same resources for non-graphic use?
And besides I doubt a developer isn't going to use all 18 CU's right?
Even if the game isn't very visually demanding it would just make coding it easier?
Let's get the discussion back on topic (& away from Forza baked lighting discussion)
So I went around looking at the OC models of two GCN members to map out what kind of a tangible boost it netted;
So first up, 10% OC on the 7770 (15% on the mem), netted an overall benefit of ~8.7%
Moving on to the 7790, a 7.5% OC lead to an overall benefit of ~5.2%.
And Penello company wants us to believe that performance scales linearly with clocks, like they keep pedalling 6%, 6%, 6%! when in reality the performance benefit is probably close to ~4% which really amounts to nothing. But yes, I forgot it was all about balance. Also take that you yield rumor, in YO FACE!
So I went around looking at the OC models of two GCN members to map out what kind of a tangible boost it netted;
So first up, 10% OC on the 7770 (15% on the mem), netted an overall benefit of ~8.7%
Moving on to the 7790, a 7.5% OC lead to an overall benefit of ~5.2%.
And Penello company wants us to believe that performance scales linearly with clocks, like they keep pedalling 6%, 6%, 6%! when in reality the performance benefit is probably close to ~4% which really amounts to nothing. But yes, I forgot it was all about balance. Also take that you yield rumor, in YO FACE!
These GPU's are sold by AMD clocked at 1,000MHz PS4 GPU is clocked at 800MHz I think it will be ok.
After all the replies from previous threads you would think you'd understand what that means. smh. The lighting in Forza is 100% dynamic, the only thing different is that the global illumination system has a static light source, no day/night transitions during races but the lighting and shadows behave exactly the same way they would in DC if the sun stayed in the same place, visually there's no difference.
Reflections are lovely:
Reflections in F5 are at 30 fps. And real-time reflections are ONLY ON YOUR CAR. Check this gif :
I was wondering this a while back. In theory, wouldn't a game pushing PS4 be almost like running furmark on your PC? You only run that on a PC as an artificial stress test because most games don't push GPUs that hard.
LittleJohnny
Banned
Not saying Shape can do ray casting but a processor architecture designed specifically for audio can be 15GFLOPS while at the same time it could take another non audio processor 100-200 GFLOPS to emulate it's functions... just sayin, you can't take those Gflops at face value.
Good digging. Love these charts!
Emulation is an entirely different scenario.
EmptySpace
Banned
wrong. environmental lighting in forza is baked, meaing they captured lighted textures and mapped them onto surfaces.
LittleJohnny
Banned
Right. PS4 doesn't have any hardware to match SHAPE. The audio processor in the PS4 is just a compression/decompression piece and does nowhere near what shape does, anything advanced to match and beyond has to be handled in software using CU, which has been estimated would drain 100-200 Gflops to match shape, or even more if your doing audio raycasting.
Did you read my full post? I never said shadows and reflections in the environment were dynamic. However lighting, reflections and shadowing all happen dynamically and in real-time in the perspective of your vehicle. If the sun is not moving, why would you have to change the shadow cast by a lamp post?
Forza team is being smart and focusing on what matters, I mean, just for an example, who cares if a game is actively rendering the environment that's off screen all the time just for bragging rights when smart programming can save resources by only accounting on what's seen by the player, this technique is done all the time in modern programming, likewise unless you can somehow exit your vehicle in the middle of a race and scrutinize every shadow cast in the environment by objects in the field, then you need to quit gaming and find another hobby quick.
To be clear, I'm not saying DC is not doing more technically, but I remember when the first DC screens showed shadows in the car casting all around, several people claimed it a difference from F5 or not possible to do in F5 because it's shadows are baked, but as you can see the effect in car is the same because in relation to the vehicle, the effect is exactly the same as DC.
The shadows that you see in the cabin are dynamic and impossible to bake
Kleegamefan
K. LEE GAIDEN
GI is not just for bragging rights, FYI
Just sayin
Just sayin
Ricerocket
Member
How can it drain from 100-200GFLOP when Shape is est at 100. SHAPE also doesn't deal with raycasting.
EmptySpace
Banned
Right. PS4 doesn't have any hardware to match SHAPE. The audio processor in the PS4 is just a compression/decompression piece and does nowhere near what shape does, anything advanced to match and beyond has to be handled in software using CU, which has been estimated would drain 100-200 Gflops to match shape, or even more if your doing audio raycasting.
Did you read my full post? I never said shadows and reflections in the environment were dynamic. However lighting, reflections and shadowing all happen dynamically and in real-time in the perspective of your vehicle. If the sun is not moving, why would you have to change the shadow cast by a lamp post?
Forza team is being smart and focusing on what matters, I mean who cares if one game is actively rendering the environment that's off screen. For example smart programming can save resources by only accounting on what's seen by the player, likewise unless you can somehow exit your vehicle in the middle of a race and scrutinize every shadow cast in the environment by objects in the field, then you need to quit gaming and find another hobby quick.
To be clear, I'm not saying DC is not doing more technically, but I remember when the first DC screens showed shadows in the car casting all around, several people claimed it a difference from F5 or not possible to do in F5 because it's shadows are baked, but as you can see the effect in car is the same because in relation to the vehicle, the effect is exactly the same as DC.
The shadows that you see in the cabin are dynamic and impossible to bake
obviously lighting inside the vehicle is dynamic, just like any other racing game out there, that is nothing to brag about.
what matters? forza 'til this day still has no day/night cycle or weather. night racing alone makes a difference in the approach to the track gameplay-wise. "smart"? please. people bragging about forza's visuals but when faced with how technical driveclub is, suddenly forza team is smart and focusing on what matters? natural lighting adds to the experience of the game, period. no one has to go out of the vehicle to notice that.
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