That Halo quote is out of context. He was talking about not wanting to make a Halo-like game just because Halo is really popular, not saying that he could have made Halo before Halo.
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Larry Bundy Jr: 4 Times Shigeru Miyamoto Was an Asshole
- Thread starter nynt9
- Start date
GreatestHits
Member
It seems like a ton of shit people overheard and have no idea how it really went down.
And of course I'm gonna defend my man Miyamoto blindly and give him the benefit of the doubt. He's earned that. There's an interesting corporte culture in Japan, and I'm sure there's some asshole Miyamto stories, but this attempt at defaming him as a game designer seems a bit lacking in content or a bit fishy
And of course I'm gonna defend my man Miyamoto blindly and give him the benefit of the doubt. He's earned that. There's an interesting corporte culture in Japan, and I'm sure there's some asshole Miyamto stories, but this attempt at defaming him as a game designer seems a bit lacking in content or a bit fishy
Here's the full question and answer from the original article on Entertainment Weekly.
It's framed around Metroid and Halo and he essentially says he doesn't really like following some trends. And before anyone talks fedforce, Miyamoto wasn't behind that.
More at the link: http://ew.com/article/2007/05/08/man-who-made-mario-super/
EDIT: The IGN article of the same subject is poorly framed and sort of makes Miyamoto look like a dope as it leaves out a lot of context from the questions and mostly cites his answers to them. But the original source is Entertainment Weekly.
It's framed around Metroid and Halo and he essentially says he doesn't really like following some trends. And before anyone talks fedforce, Miyamoto wasn't behind that.
More at the link: http://ew.com/article/2007/05/08/man-who-made-mario-super/
EDIT: The IGN article of the same subject is poorly framed and sort of makes Miyamoto look like a dope as it leaves out a lot of context from the questions and mostly cites his answers to them. But the original source is Entertainment Weekly.
It's out of context but it doesn't change the fact he's saying he could have designed the game but chose not to. Nothing he says after that changes the meaning of what he said, he just elaborates on why he said it.
Because the rest of the statement changes nothing about how he said he could have designed that game. Honestly him saying that Halo had been done before and didn't break any new ground doesn't make him look any better. If anything it makes him kind of out of touch as to why Halo is a good game, it's not because it breaks a lot of new ground, it's because it presents existing gameplay concepts in a refined and polished way.
He using "Halo" as a generic term for an FPS. He's not trying to downplay Halo or Bungie.
He says he could have designed "that game", not "a game like that". If he didn't mean that he either phrased it poorly or it was badly translated.
The rest of the statement again is him going on about how Halo isn't a new experience and how those types of games aren't what he wants to make so I can't really see how this statement can be viewed in a way that isn't derogatory as he's basically saying those type of games are beneath him.
Context:
Metroid sells less than Halo because the standard FPS type sells more to the American audience because it's familiar and the west can't get enough of it.
Miyamoto uses Halo as a general term in describing FPS games.
Miyamoto doesn't like to chase trends where he can.
He's not really insulting Halo or Bungie.
Also in the article: Miyamoto notices that Zelda isn't performing as well as it could in Japan. Cites that the market for big role playing adventure games seem to be getting smaller in Japan, but Twilight Princess is doing well in the west.
And that's still the trend in Japan for the most part.
My own opinion:
Metroid could have very easily ended up just being a typical FPS with super polished and refined gameplay without the hallmarks of what makes Metroid so special. I don't see Miyamoto being out of touch in his statement, and yes, I could see Nintendo making a Halo with high levels of polish, because it's Nintendo and it's Miyamoto. But it being Miyamoto and Nintendo in general, it's not their MO. They wouldn't make a game like Halo. Metroid Prime chose to take what was special about the original games and put it in 3D, which gives Metroid a new experience for the audience.
I'd say poorly worded. I don't believe that, that kind of game would be beneath him, it's more that he's just not too interested in making that style of game.
There's a difference in looking down and thinking something is beneath them and another for just not feeling too interested. And we've seen how Miyamoto is interested in the medium to create something and how Miyamoto uses this medium to create many different kinds of alternative styles to play, experiences, and even experiment in genres which create new subgenres. Pikmin is one example I think encapsulates much of that.
Metroid sells less than Halo because the standard FPS type sells more to the American audience because it's familiar and the west can't get enough of it.
Miyamoto uses Halo as a general term in describing FPS games.
Miyamoto doesn't like to chase trends where he can.
He's not really insulting Halo or Bungie.
Also in the article: Miyamoto notices that Zelda isn't performing as well as it could in Japan. Cites that the market for big role playing adventure games seem to be getting smaller in Japan, but Twilight Princess is doing well in the west.
And that's still the trend in Japan for the most part.
My own opinion:
Metroid could have very easily ended up just being a typical FPS with super polished and refined gameplay without the hallmarks of what makes Metroid so special. I don't see Miyamoto being out of touch in his statement, and yes, I could see Nintendo making a Halo with high levels of polish, because it's Nintendo and it's Miyamoto. But it being Miyamoto and Nintendo in general, it's not their MO. They wouldn't make a game like Halo. Metroid Prime chose to take what was special about the original games and put it in 3D, which gives Metroid a new experience for the audience.
I'd say poorly worded. I don't believe that, that kind of game would be beneath him, it's more that he's just not too interested in making that style of game.
There's a difference in looking down and thinking something is beneath them and another for just not feeling too interested. And we've seen how Miyamoto is interested in the medium to create something and how Miyamoto uses this medium to create many different kinds of alternative styles to play, experiences, and even experiment in genres which create new subgenres. Pikmin is one example I think encapsulates much of that.
He's saying that Nintendo trying to copy Halo wouldn't be creating a new experience. He's not insulting Halo in the least.
If he actually goes for original experiences why does Twilight Princess exist?
I'm not going to act like Miyamoto is a douchebag but I don't really see why people are acting like he isn't throwing shade here. He's literally saying he could have made a game if he chose to then makes an excuse claiming he only wants to make new experiences when that's clearly not true.
I do not think most game devs would be granted this sort of leanency. I don't recall if it was this thread or another recent one but the Ratchet and Clank dev who said they thought it would be cool if Miyamoto had been inspired by thier work had several people take shots at him and the only person who did anything to clarify or defend his statement was me. Why is there such an incredible double standard with this guy?
If someone even questions whether or not he was inspired by something they're accusing him of plagiarism but it's cool for Miyamoto too claim he could have developed other games and dismiss an entire genre as not being worth his time and somehow he's not being derogatory.
Edit:
Miyamoto is a legendary game dev and has made a ton of innovative games that shaped the industry and I'll never say anything to take that from him. It's a straight up fact, period end of story no debate there.
However acting like that's all he does is just as much of a lie as denying the above statement would have been. If he wasn't interested in doing an FPS he could have just said it didn't interest him, he didn't have any new ideas for it, that Halo had taken the genre to it's limit or any other number of statements that wouldn't have been dismissive. He chose to claim he could have developed the market leading game in the genre (and I'll be honest, I believe him) and then basically dismissed the game or genre depending on how you want to look into it.
I'm not going to deny that he has a point but it's definitely derogatory.
Barkley's Justice
Member
Are there any facts to back up what this dude is saying in the video? He doesn't reference any sources. Just spews on various allegations...
He references a few interviews and I think that was about it. The video is poorly researched and far below his usual quality IMO.
Jon Carter
Member
The receipt printer is permanently out of paper, it seems.
He doesn't mention anything about dismissing the entire genre or imply it. He just uses it as a general term to discuss why he wouldn't in most cases.
And I guess I was wrong too. He is interested in making a first-person shooter
http://kotaku.com/5918095/the-creator-of-mario-and-zelda-wants-to-make-a-first-person-shooter
Twilight Princess exists because Zelda fans are big and stupid babies wanting the games to return to OoT and be dark and not look like "kiddie crap" like Wind Waker. Aonuma did Twilight Princess, and was all largely based on fan feedback and poor sales of Wind Waker. There would have been a Wind Waker 2 on console but it got changed to TP.
I don't remember the full quotes, but I do remember Miyamoto saying he had never played the Ratchet and Clank games. He doesn't seem to get to play a lot of other people's games very often, and from some interviews it seems like it's mainly because he doesn't often have the time to do so.
He said he could have made Halo then went on about how he didn't want to because he wanted to work on something new instead. It's either derogatory or making an excuse.
Did they actually do any research as to why Wind Waker didn't sell as well or did they just make assumptions? Being a GameCube game, I'd think it'd be natural it would sell less than OOT due to the smaller installed base.
The quote was:
"It would be amazing to think that Miyamoto-san thought that was so cool that he wanted to incorporate it" is somehow an accusation of stealing.
And no Miyamoto didn't play it, I'm not blaming him for that and it's kind of beside the point. The guy isn't calling him out for stealing he's saying it's extremely flattering if Miyamoto took an idea from his game and implemented it in a different way.
Cuningas de Häme
Member
IT IS NOT TRUE!!!!!
Holy shit something has to be done because people are so lazy these days.
I am sure that these "thruths" will go on and on and in the future will be accepted as facts. Just like that Trump "post-truth" stuff you guys like to bitch about.
Holy shit something has to be done because people are so lazy these days.
I am sure that these "thruths" will go on and on and in the future will be accepted as facts. Just like that Trump "post-truth" stuff you guys like to bitch about.
Jonneh3003
Banned
As the guy above bellowed, it isn't true.
Miyamoto isn't being derogatory or making an excuse. In context, the question implies that he's losing his touch with the western audiences and the market for not making something like Halo which sells millions with the American audience, and how Metroid (and Nintendo games in general) is very Japanese-centric (Though Metroid feels more western and sells better in the west than in Japan). There is a big difference in style of those two series. He's not knocking Halo or Bungie. He's not above Halo or the genre, in fact, he would need to understand the games and genre if he wanted to do anything involved with the genre. That market is satisfied with Halo, Call of Duty, Battlefield and more, so he likes to find something different to do within a genre, which is part of his philosophy for better or worse.
So he could make it, but he chooses not to. It's that simple. He has the knowledge and know how to make that kind of game but he chooses to forge a different path because that's what interests him most.
--
Having been a kid and Wind Waker being my first Zelda, and hearing so much about how kiddie it is from older teens and using derogatory terms to describe it, even in magazines. Nintendo got a lot of flack for games like Wind Waker and its cel-shading or Kirby's Air Ride and only needed one button to play. Yeah, I think Nintendo got the hint. You also had people that were angry about it not being anything like the early GameCube graphics demo footage which had a short moment of an adult Link fighting Ganon in sword combat. The negativity felt near endless. Then years later excitement filled the air when people saw Twilight Princess's teaser trailer and TP went on to sell about 7 million copies, roughly the same as OoT performed.
I still have the issue of GI that uses the most dramatic of words to describe TP's trailer, like how Link riding his steed on a hill in front of blood red sunset sky ready to face off against a group of moblins on horseback as if going to war. That's paraphrasing but that's how GI worded things for it. So many fell in love with TP's trailer and it was clear the trailer was made for the western audience and their pestering of a "realistic" Zelda and being another Ocarina of Time. People still ask for another Zelda in the style of TP or something darker.
And yes, I could understand that sales perspective as well, but there does seem to be a theme in the west where cartoon Zelda doesn't seem to perform as high as a Zelda game that goes for a more grounded or "realistic" look.
None of it is true outside of Star Fox 2 being cancelled for business reasons. The thread debunked the video pretty hard.
Schopenhauerian
Member
It was most definitely not Dylan Cuthbert who said that. It was Jez San: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-07-04-born-slippy-the-making-of-star-fox
While I've made a few posts on this subject already (one / two / three / four), it may be worthwhile to come back to the following point:
As was noted earlier in the thread:
Notably, even Jez San says the following about Miyamoto:
Dylan Cuthbert talks about working with Nintendo and Miyamoto: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-09-22-the-life-and-times-of-dylan-cuthbert-interview
Dylan Cuthbert's description of the cancellation of Star Fox 2 is very different from the description given by Jez San: http://www.kotaku.com.au/2011/05/th...sters-of-nintendo-during-a-gaming-golden-age/
Dylan Cuthbert's fellow Argonaut programmers Giles Goddard and Colin Reed were hired to work at Nintendo, following the cancellation of Star Fox 2. However, there was a specific reason that Dylan Cuthbert could not himself be hired by Nintendo, immediately following the cancellation of Star Fox 2: http://www.kotaku.com.au/2011/05/th...sters-of-nintendo-during-a-gaming-golden-age/
Dylan Cuthbert compares his time at Sony to his time with Nintendo: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-09-22-the-life-and-times-of-dylan-cuthbert-interview
Dylan Cuthbert also notes:
From Krister Wombell, another of the Argonaut programmers (as mentioned earlier by Shikamaru Ninja) who worked on Star Fox 2:
SUMMARY:
Jez San is the person from Argonaut Games who has made claims (about Star Fox 2 & Croc) that would potentially reflect negatively on Miyamoto and/or Nintendo. Jez San is a businessman/programmer & Argonaut Games founder/CEO. Jez San's Argonaut Games corporation lost out on tech royalties (from the FX chip) when Star Fox 2 was cancelled. In contrast, the public comments from Argonaut programmers Dylan Cuthbert, Giles Goddard, Colin Reed, and Kirster Wombell are positive about Nintendo and Miyamoto.
Moreover, each of these Argonaut programmers were fully paid for their work by Nintendo, as outlined by Shikamaru Ninja. In fact, none of these 4 programmers returned to the Argonaut Games corporation after Star Fox 2 was cancelled: Giles Goddard and Colin Reed decided to work for Nintendo instead, Krister Wombell had already founded his own company in 1993 (Virtuality) and was no longer with Argonaut, and Dylan Cuthbert went on to work for Sony.
The reason Dylan Cuthbert could not join Nintendo, as his fellow Argonaut programmers Giles Goddard and Colin Reed did, is that contract restrictions (known as 'headhunting clauses' or 'non-compete clauses') had been put in place by the Argonaut Games corporation [CEO Jez San] that prevented Cuthbert from joining Nintendo. Cuthbert could thus go to any other company he wanted, or go back to Argonaut, but he was prevented by the Argonaut corporation [i.e., CEO Jez San] from joining Nintendo.
Cuthbert did not want to go back to England/Argonaut/Jez San, after Star Fox 2 was cancelled in 1995, and could not go to Nintendo, so he decided to join Sony in California (he was impressed by the technology behind Ridge Racer on the PlayStation). Cuthbert worked with Sony from 1995 to 2001, then founded his own company [Q-Games] in 2001. Cuthbert has consistently had positive things to say about his work with Miyamoto/Nintendo during the 1990 to 1995 period -- in 2011, he contrasted his time at Nintendo favorably with his time at Sony, though he continues to work closely with both companies -- and has continued to work with Miyamoto/Nintendo, on Star Fox Command (released in 2006) and on Star Fox 64 3D (released in 2011).
UPDATE (02/13/17):
Oh I'm not sure how reliable the source where I read it is:
http://croc.wikia.com/wiki/Random_facts_about_the_croc_series
EDIT:
Apparently the source is a guy who visited Argonaut in 1999 and was told about Yoshi Racing by Argonaut developers themselves.
We're going in circles with the Miyamoto thing. I don't think we're going to agree on this. I think at the very least he was acting arrogant and I think iff someone else had made the same statement people wouldn't be defending him.
I think I was in college when Wind Waker came out. It seemed like there was backlash when it was revealed but it seemed like people got over it pretty quick from my perspective, but that's just one viewpoint. It's hard to really say what caused the lower sales but it seemed like the game was well received but I don't think it could have realistically move OOT or TP numbers regardless with the number of cubes in homes.
Lionel Richie
Member
0 evidence and it's something that could and in a rightful world would get him sued. Youtubers babbling random shit without any evidence to back their allegations for the sake of "journalism" is getting out of control.
-Mutsukki-
Member
The thing about the Miyamoto quote is that you're misreading it. I see how you can interpret it the way you do, but within context he's literally saying "We could make an FPS like Halo and try to take that share of the market, but we don't feel like it"
It's literally that, he's not saying he knows the nuances of Halo and how he could create a perfect, or even better, copy. Miyamoto is very confident about his abilities so, yes, he is confident that he could design a game like that, but that's not downplaying Halo in any form. The fact that you cut off the rest of the quote when replying to me kinda tells me you know that there's more to it too
What quote did I cut off, the first part of this one when I first quoted it? I'm on mobile and wanted to save space and as I've said before I don't feel the rest of the context changes the meaning. I really don't appreciate your implication that I'm being dishonest about this. I honestly think you guys at least believe what you're saying although I do think you guys are biased because it's Miyamoto (and admittedly that's pretty understandable).
The guy says he could have made Halo then goes on and on about how he'd rather do something new instead, despite the fact he still has plenty of cookie cutter games come out with his name on it.
I have repeatedly mentioned that no other game dev gets protected like this from any sort of fault and I think that has been ignored in every reply. I even pointed out the Insomniac dev who to this day still gets criticized for saying Miyamoto might have been inspired by his work and no one has made a comment saying that what he said was okay or explaining to me how I'm "misreading" that and how he's actually accusing Miyamoto of stealing.
It's literally like Miyamoto has this sort of reputation where he can seen as doing no wrong. Even if he meant no insult to the Halo/FPS devs he's still claiming he's focusing on doing new stuff when you still have stuff like Twilight Princess, New SMB x4 and such that are not innovative games. The man is being a hypocrite at worst and lying to himself at best.
Schopenhauerian
Member
Oh goodie, another Larry Bundy Jr. video that presents often unfounded claims or rumors and/or misrepresents information on a given topic where said information does exist.
Seriously, this isn't the first time he's done this before. Why does everyone seem surprised by this?
EDIT: Also he had the gall to say people who claim Gamergate has misogynistic origins were sorely misinformed. Yes, seriously.
Seriously, this isn't the first time he's done this before. Why does everyone seem surprised by this?
EDIT: Also he had the gall to say people who claim Gamergate has misogynistic origins were sorely misinformed. Yes, seriously.
The only role Miyamoto had on NSMB was a Supervisor role and General Producer role because he was promoted to a bigger management position. You'll see him under General Producer for a lot of games he didn't work hands on with because of his promotion.
While Miyamoto was the Producer for Twilight Princess, I don't think he had as much input on it. Aonuma was the Director and has been left in charge of the franchise for a long time now and largely Aonuma's ideas etc. He emails Miyamoto a lot on things for some guidance and how things look or feel but I think that's mostly it. Aonuma even talked about that in the Twilight Princess Retrospective videos.
Another example we have is Majora's Mask being largely done by Aonuma and Koizumi though Miyamoto was the Producer for that game too.
I dunno where Miyamoto's being a hypocrite if people are using those examples.
While Miyamoto was the Producer for Twilight Princess, I don't think he had as much input on it. Aonuma was the Director and has been left in charge of the franchise for a long time now and largely Aonuma's ideas etc. He emails Miyamoto a lot on things for some guidance and how things look or feel but I think that's mostly it. Aonuma even talked about that in the Twilight Princess Retrospective videos.
Another example we have is Majora's Mask being largely done by Aonuma and Koizumi though Miyamoto was the Producer for that game too.
I dunno where Miyamoto's being a hypocrite if people are using those examples.
Yep he's awful. His videos are often tabloid tier garbage, making stuff up to sensationalise the subject matter. I hope Nintendo's lawyers take an interest in this so that he will think twice about doing this again.
And yeah, he has also flirted with the gators a few too many times to be given the benefit of the doubt that's for sure.
Miyamoto rarely works as a game designer now and he rarely did when the interview took place. I doubt he had a more hands on roll with Metroid Prime, the game he was defending, than he did with the other 5 games I mentioned. But even if he did or even if you want to invalidate them for other reasons those aren't exactly the only derivative games he's made. You can swap them out for Super Mario Brothers 2 and Pac-Man Vs. if you need games he designed in order for it to be valid as I'm fairly confident he did both of those personally.
foxuzamaki
Doesn't read OPs, especially not his own
Jesus dude, ive been reading your comments in this thread and you are harping on about stuff that doesn't even matter, waht miyamoto said was right, he usually, aswell as his peers make games that are often alternatives in the genre instead of just making a standard shooter in the vein of halo or anything, making sequels to the same games he created is not being hypocritical.
-Mutsukki-
Member
Miyamoto was actually very hands-off on Super Mario Bros 2 as he was more involved with
And Miyamoto got a lot of flak for what he did to Paper Mario and other Mario games in general. Guy deserves absolutely all the credit he gets, but I don't think anybody overlooks the bad things. At this point it just seems you're reaching for reasons to voice a strong (maybe unpopular) opinion.
It's a video game forum, what discussions here really matter?
He's claiming he could have made Halo and then dumped on it for being generic, any other dev would have been criticized for being a douchebag but Miyamoto gets a free ride and gets defended.
The examples in the video are not really valid but Miyamoto is not a completely infallible person like people here would lead you to believe and anything even remotely resembling criticism of him isn't blasphemy like you'd be lead to believe with the way people dumped on (and still dump on) the Insomniac dev.
-Mutsukki-
Member
Miyamoto would not get a free ride if he said that, but he didn't, so there are not even any rides to give.
Nobody is claiming Miyamoto is infallibe
I searched the thread and had to see somebody dumping on the Insomniac dev. It does't feel like he said that in a serious tone, because Ratchet and Clank is definitely not the first game to do spherical worlds and I'm pretty sure he knows it lol.
I'd say his role for Metroid Prime was more hands on mainly due to Retro's disorganization at the time, and it was Miyamoto who also suggested Retro to begin with to make a new Metroid game. Prime was also probably going end up third-person too until Miyamoto intervened and said that Prime should be in first-person.
Game had multiple Producers, though. Including Kensuke Tanabe, who would end up becoming the Producer for the rest of the Prime games without Miyamoto.
For the most part, though, as a Producer it's unknown for the majority of games and how hands on he was but we do know he can get really hands on when needed. But what I'm saying for TP is that his hands on role with Zelda seems to be getting smaller as Aonuma forges ahead with the series. And with NSMB, he was only a Supervisor for the first one and just a General Producer for the sequels.
As for Super Mario Bros. 2/Doki Doki Panic, he was the game designer and Producer for it. Same for Pac-Man Vs.
Wait a minute. I thought he was the designer on Doki Doki Panic? I'm gonna have to look it up.
EDIT: Oh wait, I read that sentence wrong, I think.
For someone who puts his name on so many titles he certainly doesn't seem to take a lot of responsibility for them. What exactly does this guy have to have done for a game that he can be criticized for it?
Pac-Man Vs. was not an innovative title and adding a feature which had become a standard thing since it's original release doesn't change that. I'm not really surprised he liked Pac-Man he seemed to take a lot of ideas from it when he developed Devil World, another game he developed that wasn't very innovative. I'm sure that Miyamoto wasn't that hands on with it and that's Tezuka's fault though.
A lot of people ignore the bad things and this discussion demonstrates that. If any other dev had said they could have developed a classic game but didn't want to when being confronted over one of thier titles failing in sales compared to it I highly doubt anyone would defend him. Literally the only thing I see him get any blame for is Paper Mario and even that seems to be a small minority.
I don't really have a strong opinion against Miyamoto, as I've said over and over the guy is a legend and with good reason, it's just ridiculous seeing him being defended for a statement anyone else would be thrown to the wolves over.
-Mutsukki-
Member
I meant Super Mario Bros 2 as in the Lost Levels. I assumed the poster meant the same too, since Doki Doki Panic is radically different. He was the designer on Doki Doki, you're right about that! I striked it out because what he was doing at the time of the actual Super Mario Bros 2 was Zelda, not Doki Doki
You can't be serious. Aside from comparing what he does 2 decades apart from each other, you're just being silly now. Regardless if you like it or not, he didn't do much in SMB2, your "jab" just feels really childish. Nothing is Tezuka's fault, SMB2 is not a bad game. Nor is Halo, nor has Miyamoto said that Halo is a bad game. Again, you're just being angry for no reason.
The bolded comment also makes me think you... don't seem to know a terribly lot about game development. If it was something that said "A Shigeru Miyamoto game" sure, but your comment was just uninformed, having your name doesn't exactly mean you did a lot of work on something.
And you keep making these allusions to these other poor devs that aren't Miyamoto, but I have yet to see that. People call out shit when they see shit. There's just none on this
He's said it and you're giving him a free ride. I'm pretty sure the Insomniac dev was serious although he was also *VERY* conditional about what he said. Somehow when there's even a suggestion that Miyamoto might have gotten an idea from someone else it becomes a plagiarism accusation
Yeah I realize that Producer credits can range from basically did nothing on this game to something like Kojima where he's massively anal retentive about everything and calls a VA back in and makes them recode the end of the game because he didn't like a take they used for a single line.
Regardless Miyamoto is either a designer or a suit on the games he has his name on up until he got the General Producer title at least. If he felt that strongly about wanting to do innovative games he wouldn't have his name on some of the games that came out. I have absolutely no doubt that if Miyamoto could go back and have made Halo he would have in a heartbeat especially seeing the issues Nintendo is currently having and how hard Halo has carried the Xbox brand.
Yeah I was talking about Lost Levels not Doki Doki Panic.
Jerry Orbach
Member
You mentioned social issues in Japan. But games are a global business and the youth of America have a host of unique issues in front of them. The reason I mention this is that one criticism of Nintendos games is that they are very Japanese-centric. American gamers have bought more copies of Halo than they did of Metroid, for instance. Do you ever worry that youre losing touch with what young American players might want to play?
What he said: I could make Halo. Its not that I couldnt design that game. Its just that I choose not to. One thing about my game design is that I never try to look for what people want and then try to make that game design. I always try to create new experiences that are fun to play.
What others read: I could make [a copy of] Halo. Its not that I couldnt design that game. Its just that I choose not to. One thing about my game design is that I never try to look for what people want and then try to make that game design. I always try to create new experiences that are fun to play.
What you read: I could [have made] Halo. Its not that I couldnt [have designed] that game. Its just that I [chose] not to. One thing about my game design is that I never try to look for what people want and then try to make that game design. I always try to create new experiences that are fun to play.
What he probably meant to say: [Halo sucks dicks compared to Zelda.][*dicksucking noises*]
The bolded was not totally serious, I clarified in my last post exactly what I mean. I don't think SMB2 is a bad game regardless of Miyamoto's involvement one way or the other. It's a solid game that succeds in what it sets out to do, however it's not very innovative and is very similar to the first game.
I'm not "angry" about anything, this is a discussion. I think some of the stances you guys are taking are a bit ridiculous but this isn't exactly a heated topic and it certainly isn't personal. I'm not sure how closely you're following the thread but the reason I used an older title is because Miyamoto largely doesn't work as a game designer anymore and hasn't for the majority of his career at this point. As a result there's not a lot of games he's designed after Zelda 3.
If you had read the thread I've brought up that Insomniac dev multiple times. Another good example is David Cage who routinely gets torn to shreds here anytime he opens his mouth if anyone can interpret his statements as him saying his games are in anyway better than other people's.
-Mutsukki-
Member
Yes. you have, but not anyone else like you're saying.
The thing is that you're being kinda subjective on your choices for examples. You say he didn't do a lot after Zelda 3, but the guy made Nintendogs and Wii Fit, both HUGE hits. If casual games don't count also made Pikmin and Star Fox Zero, a game that did get him a LOT of criticism.
The thing is, maybe staying true to what he said, he's pretty hands-off with most of sequels from games he made, Miyamoto wasn't even that much involved with Super Mario Galaxy.
Also David Cage... is kind of a hack for other reasons. He have really bad ideas on what video-games should be or strive for and it shows on his games. His comments are more like rubbing salt on the wound than anything
Cuningas de Häme
Member
Oh God some people...
It is okay to admit you're wrong, what is it with people nowadays when they can't admit that they don't know shit about something?
This happens all the time, just move on.
Miyamoto is a really humble guy, that is said by MANY developers in and outside Nintendo.
He could make a Halo type of a game, but instead he wants to make games like Pikmin. Not so hard to understand. Different strokes and all.
It is okay to admit you're wrong, what is it with people nowadays when they can't admit that they don't know shit about something?
This happens all the time, just move on.
Miyamoto is a really humble guy, that is said by MANY developers in and outside Nintendo.
He could make a Halo type of a game, but instead he wants to make games like Pikmin. Not so hard to understand. Different strokes and all.
I have what?
I'm not being subjective at all. He's rarely credited as a designer post Zelda 3, and what he actually does in other roles varies heavily dependent on the project.
Casual games count and those are a few of the games he's listed as a designer in more recent years for, but most of his output is as producer and such. Galaxy he's listed as a dev for too actually, odd he didn't do too much on it, I'd figure that credit would imply a pretty hands on role.
David Cage actually does make unique games that are not your usual type of title (or at least he did when this particular statement was made which was before Telltale style took off) so the statement isn't exactly false. I'm not even going to imply that Cage is on Miyamoto's level and I kind of doubt Cage would even think that but the two statements were actually pretty similar (If anything Cage's was more mild as he didn't compare any specific game or claim he could make any other game or type of game). I don't really see why it's arrogant for Cage to say it but not Miyamoto.
Shigeru Miyamoto worked in a Producer/Director role in most of his key games up until Zelda: Ocarina of Time. Miyamoto was a director on Super Mario 64 and had a Producer/Director role on Ocarina of Time.
Sometime between the NES and SNES eras Miyamoto got in trouble for giving himself a "producer" title to the western press because they wouldn't understand the hierarchy of their Japanese development teams. (Meaning "Producer" and "Director" and "Section Chief" might mean something different)
http://web.archive.org/web/20030811223536/http://www.video-fenky.com/features/miyamoto.html
I: So why did you begin calling yourself a producer?
SM: Once we finished Mario and Zelda, the next thing I wanted to do was sequels. I thought Zelda could turn into a new and different game if the game system was more fun and we could switch between maps and things, so... I had people under me do Mario 3 and The Adventure of Link, so I figured, hey, I'm a producer now.
There's also one more reason. To tell the truth, in Nintendo there aren't any official positions called "director" or "producer". Instead you have the kacho/bucho (section chief/department chief) system. The thing is, though, people overseas don't get that system. So when I started dealing with overseas folks, I wanted to sell myself to them, so I just wrote "producer" on my business card. With that title, people from overseas could recognize what I do, and it worked all right. Later I got yelled at from the head office about assigning myself titles, but... (laughs) Those are the two reasons I started calling myself a producer.
[Takashi Tezuka worked directly with Miyamoto on Mario and Zelda, and Tezuka directed Super Mario Bros. 3, The Lost Levels (Miyamoto was 10% invovled), and Zelda: A Link to the Past. Kensuke Tanabe directed Doki Doki Panic and designed levels on SMB3 while Miyamoto was "Producer" with a director role]
http://www.nintendo.com/nes-classic/super-mari-bros-and-super-mario-bros-3-developer-interview
Miyamoto became directly involved in Twilight Princess towards the end with the young development team being unfocused and after Aonuma had to step in to direct.
http://iwataasks.nintendo.com/interviews/#/wii/twilight_princess/0/5
http://iwataasks.nintendo.com/interviews/#/wii/twilight_princess/0/4
For Super Mario Galaxy Miyamoto worked as Producer and is responsible for the game design of using gravity and spherical worlds. He regularly evaluated Super Mario Galaxy and is also the reason they switched the life balance from 6 life points to 3.
http://iwataasks.nintendo.com/interviews/#/wii/super_mario_galaxy/3/2
Iwata: For this last interview, I would like to ask Miyamoto-san, the creator of Mario, and the person in charge of game design for Super Mario Galaxy.
Miyamoto: So what I had come up with, was gravity.
Gravity was used a lot in old movies, with things like being able to walk upside-down on the ceiling.
But if you think about it, nobody was really able to do that before in real life, and I though it would be great if I were able to recreate that in a game. People would be able to have a new experience, and it would be so much fun being able to play around in that kind of an environment.
But when I told that to the staff, they became worried, and asked me "Can we really call something like that a game?" So I told them, that if I were to make a game that was not fun, I would much rather make something that was not a game, but everyone would find a lot of fun! (laughs)
Miyamoto: It came down to finding the right idea. With a spherical field, you’re able to create new styles
from a design perspective, and this type of field is also good for the camera angles. So even after experimenting with Mario 128, I wanted to save it for another time.
Iwata: I felt that this was a very difficult project in the way you had participated.
You weren’t the director like in Mario 64, and even though you knew the staff in EAD Tokyo very well, it was about 400 kilometers (about 250 miles) away from Kyoto.
Miyamoto: But I think I was able to work in a pleasant environment.
I don’t think we would have been able to make this game if I was the director, getting my feet wet in the development process, but I think it was possible because I was the producer. The development tools we were using were so much better than the ones we used in the past; the computer on my desk was always connected to Tokyo. Iwata: You were connected to them so much, that even in the mornings on days off, you were emailing them! (laughs)
Miyamoto: They were constantly sending me the latest data, so I was able to respond to them immediately.
When I would go to Tokyo in the earlier stages of development,
I took over an entire room and had the development leads come in one by one, and we talked about the game while we were playing.
But then it struck me, "Is this something that I need to be doing all the way in Tokyo!?" (laughs) So I had the same environment created in one of the conference rooms in Kyoto, and I held meetings displaying the game screen using a camera, and talking about how we should change things in the game via video conferencing. So I was able to work as if I were in the Tokyo office.
Iwata: Koizumi-san, the director, referred to you playing the game as if you were sampling their first dishes that they had created.
Miyamoto on Star Fox Zero on being credited as a director for the first time in years.
http://www.nintendo.co.uk/News/2016/May/Star-Fox-Zero-Dev-Team-Interview-Part-Two-1107887.html
Sometime between the NES and SNES eras Miyamoto got in trouble for giving himself a "producer" title to the western press because they wouldn't understand the hierarchy of their Japanese development teams. (Meaning "Producer" and "Director" and "Section Chief" might mean something different)
http://web.archive.org/web/20030811223536/http://www.video-fenky.com/features/miyamoto.html
I: So why did you begin calling yourself a producer?
SM: Once we finished Mario and Zelda, the next thing I wanted to do was sequels. I thought Zelda could turn into a new and different game if the game system was more fun and we could switch between maps and things, so... I had people under me do Mario 3 and The Adventure of Link, so I figured, hey, I'm a producer now.
There's also one more reason. To tell the truth, in Nintendo there aren't any official positions called "director" or "producer". Instead you have the kacho/bucho (section chief/department chief) system. The thing is, though, people overseas don't get that system. So when I started dealing with overseas folks, I wanted to sell myself to them, so I just wrote "producer" on my business card. With that title, people from overseas could recognize what I do, and it worked all right. Later I got yelled at from the head office about assigning myself titles, but... (laughs) Those are the two reasons I started calling myself a producer.
[Takashi Tezuka worked directly with Miyamoto on Mario and Zelda, and Tezuka directed Super Mario Bros. 3, The Lost Levels (Miyamoto was 10% invovled), and Zelda: A Link to the Past. Kensuke Tanabe directed Doki Doki Panic and designed levels on SMB3 while Miyamoto was "Producer" with a director role]
http://www.nintendo.com/nes-classic/super-mari-bros-and-super-mario-bros-3-developer-interview
Miyamoto became directly involved in Twilight Princess towards the end with the young development team being unfocused and after Aonuma had to step in to direct.
http://iwataasks.nintendo.com/interviews/#/wii/twilight_princess/0/5
Aonuma I suppose that's true. In any case, it's a fact that if Miyamoto-san thinks of something, he wants to tell you straight away; he can't wait to tell you in person. So a lot of his instructions this time came in the form of e-mail.
Miyamoto Right, it was the first time I have done it through e-mail.
Aonuma When we were working on Wind Waker, he would simply hand me two-page documents with all his comments gathered together, saying: "There you go!"
Miyamoto: In the past I would often gather my comments in one document and hand them to the people in charge. I also used to make a point of avoiding going directly to the development area and to only deal with team leaders. That's because the management of the development team had been entrusted to them. This time round however, there were of course a huge number of people involved as well as a lot of young developers. That's why I thought that rather than all these instructions appearing out of nowhere, it was better if the developers could actually see the process behind these decisions.
Miyamoto Right, it was the first time I have done it through e-mail.
Aonuma When we were working on Wind Waker, he would simply hand me two-page documents with all his comments gathered together, saying: "There you go!"
Miyamoto: In the past I would often gather my comments in one document and hand them to the people in charge. I also used to make a point of avoiding going directly to the development area and to only deal with team leaders. That's because the management of the development team had been entrusted to them. This time round however, there were of course a huge number of people involved as well as a lot of young developers. That's why I thought that rather than all these instructions appearing out of nowhere, it was better if the developers could actually see the process behind these decisions.
http://iwataasks.nintendo.com/interviews/#/wii/twilight_princess/0/4
Iwata: Miyamoto-san, how did you feel when you became fully involved in the development process?
Miyamoto: That's a difficult one. I hope it's okay to speak frankly?
Iwata: By all means.
Miyamoto: Well, I've been involved in developing several prototypes throughout the course of the project, so there weren't any serious problems, but... Firstly, the leaders hadn't been checking the progress of the staff. Many staff members weren't able to properly execute the most fundamental parts of their assignments. They weren't able to play catch yet; in fact, they hadn't even got the gist, such as catching the ball in the middle of the glove... Sloppy work, you might say. That's why I've mostly been helping by explaining to them clearly so they could better understand what they are supposed to do in order to correctly execute their assignments. There's one thing I've been grateful for, and that is the level of motivation these people have. The cause of the sloppiness wasn't due to people's lack of motivation, but more that they were stuck in a rut due to the huge amount of work they had. Iwata I see. You could say they didn't know where to direct their focus? Miyamoto Yes, that's it. Because they were already highly motivated, simply by pointing out what task they should be doing, they were able to make significant progress. And so we've managed to finish in around four months what would have taken around half a year. I was a little concerned at first, but the level of motivation within the development team has really helped.
Miyamoto: That's a difficult one. I hope it's okay to speak frankly?
Iwata: By all means.
Miyamoto: Well, I've been involved in developing several prototypes throughout the course of the project, so there weren't any serious problems, but... Firstly, the leaders hadn't been checking the progress of the staff. Many staff members weren't able to properly execute the most fundamental parts of their assignments. They weren't able to play catch yet; in fact, they hadn't even got the gist, such as catching the ball in the middle of the glove... Sloppy work, you might say. That's why I've mostly been helping by explaining to them clearly so they could better understand what they are supposed to do in order to correctly execute their assignments. There's one thing I've been grateful for, and that is the level of motivation these people have. The cause of the sloppiness wasn't due to people's lack of motivation, but more that they were stuck in a rut due to the huge amount of work they had. Iwata I see. You could say they didn't know where to direct their focus? Miyamoto Yes, that's it. Because they were already highly motivated, simply by pointing out what task they should be doing, they were able to make significant progress. And so we've managed to finish in around four months what would have taken around half a year. I was a little concerned at first, but the level of motivation within the development team has really helped.
For Super Mario Galaxy Miyamoto worked as Producer and is responsible for the game design of using gravity and spherical worlds. He regularly evaluated Super Mario Galaxy and is also the reason they switched the life balance from 6 life points to 3.
http://iwataasks.nintendo.com/interviews/#/wii/super_mario_galaxy/3/2
Iwata: For this last interview, I would like to ask Miyamoto-san, the creator of Mario, and the person in charge of game design for Super Mario Galaxy.
Miyamoto: So what I had come up with, was gravity.
Gravity was used a lot in old movies, with things like being able to walk upside-down on the ceiling.
But if you think about it, nobody was really able to do that before in real life, and I though it would be great if I were able to recreate that in a game. People would be able to have a new experience, and it would be so much fun being able to play around in that kind of an environment.
But when I told that to the staff, they became worried, and asked me "Can we really call something like that a game?" So I told them, that if I were to make a game that was not fun, I would much rather make something that was not a game, but everyone would find a lot of fun! (laughs)
Miyamoto: It came down to finding the right idea. With a spherical field, you’re able to create new styles
from a design perspective, and this type of field is also good for the camera angles. So even after experimenting with Mario 128, I wanted to save it for another time.
Iwata: I felt that this was a very difficult project in the way you had participated.
You weren’t the director like in Mario 64, and even though you knew the staff in EAD Tokyo very well, it was about 400 kilometers (about 250 miles) away from Kyoto.
Miyamoto: But I think I was able to work in a pleasant environment.
I don’t think we would have been able to make this game if I was the director, getting my feet wet in the development process, but I think it was possible because I was the producer. The development tools we were using were so much better than the ones we used in the past; the computer on my desk was always connected to Tokyo. Iwata: You were connected to them so much, that even in the mornings on days off, you were emailing them! (laughs)
Miyamoto: They were constantly sending me the latest data, so I was able to respond to them immediately.
When I would go to Tokyo in the earlier stages of development,
I took over an entire room and had the development leads come in one by one, and we talked about the game while we were playing.
But then it struck me, "Is this something that I need to be doing all the way in Tokyo!?" (laughs) So I had the same environment created in one of the conference rooms in Kyoto, and I held meetings displaying the game screen using a camera, and talking about how we should change things in the game via video conferencing. So I was able to work as if I were in the Tokyo office.
Iwata: Koizumi-san, the director, referred to you playing the game as if you were sampling their first dishes that they had created.
Miyamoto on Star Fox Zero on being credited as a director for the first time in years.
http://www.nintendo.co.uk/News/2016/May/Star-Fox-Zero-Dev-Team-Interview-Part-Two-1107887.html
Sao: Listening to you speak, Miyamoto-san, it sounds like you were deeply involved in the development of this game.
Miyamoto: Well, I am credited as both producer and supervising director, and I’d say that what I did was pretty close to working as a director.
Sao: When did you last take on that kind of role?
Miyamoto: On The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, which came out in 1998, I was close to being a director, but was credited as a producer. So the last time I was credited as a director would have been before that, on Super Mario 64.
Miyamoto: Well, I am credited as both producer and supervising director, and I’d say that what I did was pretty close to working as a director.
Sao: When did you last take on that kind of role?
Miyamoto: On The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, which came out in 1998, I was close to being a director, but was credited as a producer. So the last time I was credited as a director would have been before that, on Super Mario 64.
MegamanPoweredUP
Member
So what? Business is about assholes. Don't pretend you don't know that.
Thank you Mak! Your posts are always great!
Don't worry. All of it has been debunked in first few pages of this thread!
Don't worry. All of it has been debunked in first few pages of this thread!