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Microsoft Irides (a.k.a. cloud-powered VR) demo video

SPDIF

Member
I know we have a related thread that's ongoing at the moment, but this is a new video that Microsoft Research have released that actually demos the technology. They also briefly discuss how it works as well. I figured it was new thread worthy:

http://research.microsoft.com/apps/video/default.aspx?id=246323

For those that don't want to, or can't watch the video.

Without the technology.
prhwbi.gif



With the technology.
kqkibv.gif
 

big_z

Member
the idea behind the tech will allow vr to go to a whole other level and Microsoft is ahead of the game in this respect due to having one of the best server structures in the world but as long as ISPs suck its not a viable solution.... at least not in north America.
 

komplanen

Member
Basically to counter the lag from rendering the frames in the cloud, MS tries to guess the movement before it happens. If they get it wrong, they distort the frame locally to match the expected output.

So basically their approach to VR is going to look a lot like YouTube's video stabiliser when they get it wrong. No thanks, Microsoft, but it's good that you are researching this.
 
Interesting concept. Essentially using cloud GPUs to handle processing, and overcoming latency by guessing the user's movement.

However, it does seem like a solution that is both too soon, and too late. ISPs in the US aren't set up for reliable cloud-based computing like this, and by the time they are - the processing power might be solved. We'll either have a new generation of consoles built with VR in mind, or it'll have proven to be a fad. The price on building a compatible PC will also have dipped by then.
 

Peterthumpa

Member
Interesting concept. Essentially using cloud GPUs to handle processing, and overcoming latency by guessing the user's movement.

However, it does seem like a solution that is both too soon, and too late. ISPs in the US aren't set up for reliable cloud-based computing like this, and by the time they are - the processing power might be solved. We'll either have a new generation of consoles built with VR in mind, or it'll have proven to be a fad. The price on building a compatible PC will also have dipped by then.

It isn't only about processing power. As the video notes, mobility is also a huge deal for VR, as also power consumption. None of the big VR players look at the technology with just gaming in mind.
 

Ape

Banned
Oh wow. With this you could have a wireless display that just streams without any hardware? Just screen and batteries? I could see see the appeal in that to people.
 

Ploid 3.0

Member
Oh wow. With this you could have a wireless display that just streams without any hardware? Just screen and batteries? I could see see the appeal in that to people.

Wait it's game streaming? Like PSnow, why would they go through the trouble of processing stuff on the cloud? Why not just do something like remote play?
 

kyser73

Member
While I'm skeptical about this, it is the kind of tech that could make the kind of interactive multiplayer stories & theatre portrayed in The Diamond Age a step closer.
 

jediyoshi

Member
Wait it's game streaming? Like PSnow, why would they go through the trouble of processing stuff on the cloud? Why not just do something like remote play?

Not an important distinction, the crux is just that it's not rendered locally.

Interesting they'd go this route while Oculus and Valve backed away from time warp.
 

Juanfp

Member
That's a very interesting solution, it cleary sound like it not something that is viable now, but in 5-6 can be a totally diferent thing even maybe in less, the technology change now more fast that we can imagine.
 

Ishan

Junior Member
It's msr tech . They'll come up with a cool solution then ms normal will mess up the idea with an in adequate implementation . Msr has always been a hot bed of cool tech but ms hasn't been good at translating that to good products
 

statham

Member
It's msr tech . They'll come up with a cool solution then ms normal will mess up the idea with an in adequate implementation . Msr has always been a hot bed of cool tech but ms hasn't been good at translating that to good products

I agree with this, but also IMO Ballmer hesitated on alot of the tech, and he was incharge for 10+ years. The new CEO seems to grasp new tech better, IMO.
 

Bsigg12

Member
I agree with this, but also IMO Ballmer hesitated on alot of the tech, and he was incharge for 10+ years. The new CEO seems to grasp new tech better, IMO.

Yea and ultimately this becomes a solution that can be applied to many devices and not a proprietary device which Microsoft has been really big about recently under Nadella.
 

Fat4all

Banned
I agree with this, but also IMO Ballmer hesitated on alot of the tech, and he was incharge for 10+ years. The new CEO seems to grasp new tech better, IMO.

Good point. It took them a looooong time to get Surface going, but now it's an actual product and doing well.
 

Josman

Member
I don't see this working any time soon:
1.- VR requires consistency for Presence not to break which they seem to achieve in their controlled enviroment, but in the real world ISP's reliability, bandwith caps, speed and latency variability all get in the way
2.- They're using an Oculus DK1 which renders at 720p 60fps, the CV1, Vive, Morpheus and even Gear VR render at a higher res and refresh rate, specs that will be the minimum from now on, I'd like to see them test on those and see if they get the same results
3.- DRM, ownership and yadada

It's nice that they're researching this, but by the time any of the above don't get in the way, hardware won't be a problem, at that point I don't even see VR movies using this instead of cheaper specialized mobile chips. The focus should be on rendering techniques and hardware issues, like almost everyone is doing.

Also, I totally expected them to have their own VR prototype by now, it's dissapointing to see them lagging behind because I want VR to be viable in most gaming platforms.
 
It's an interesting technique.

This also seems like it builds off their work with Project Delorean (though it was renamed Outatime due to obvious trademark issues): http://research.microsoft.com/apps/pubs/default.aspx?id=226843

Same people worked on that in fact.

I do wonder how complicated their predictive models are. For example, if they were doing head/neck modeling in their model, they could likely predict at which point the user would be reaching a point at which it would be uncomfortable to continue turning their head, and if they had brancing prediction like in Outatime, could render multiple predictions at once server-side, ready for multiple options the client could do.

*Edit*
I don't see this working any time soon:
1.- VR requires consistency for Presence not to break which they seem to achieve in their controlled enviroment, but in the real world ISP's reliability, bandwith caps, speed and latency variability all get in the way
2.- They're using an Oculus DK1 which renders at 720p 60fps, the CV1, Vive, Morpheus and even Gear VR render at a higher res and refresh rate, specs that will be the minimum from now on, I'd like to see them test on those and see if they get the same results
3.- DRM, ownership and yadada

It's nice that they're researching this, but by the time any of the above don't get in the way, hardware won't be a problem, at that point I don't even see VR movies using this instead of cheaper specialized mobile chips. The focus should be on rendering techniques and hardware issues, like almost everyone is doing.

Also, I totally expected them to have their own VR prototype by now, it's dissapointing to see them lagging behind because I want VR to be viable in most gaming platforms.

1) Just keep in mind this is still research. If they find this works, but current market conditions would make it unable to release it as-is, they could adapt the technology. For example, instead of rendering on some remote server in a data center, what if you could instead run the server from your desktop machine, and do same-network streaming. Think of it like Steam Streaming, but made for VR. Plus, internet infrastructure is always improving. 5 years from now it will be a different game than today.
2) Agreed. Though, some of your point ties into the above. Bandwidth is the big limiting factor, and of course, the frame rate can depend on latency. However, because they're essentially doing async timewarp, it will be interesting to know how far they could push this. Could they make a good experience at 90 Hz for example?
3) The business model has nothing to do with the technology. See my example for point 1 how they could allow you to run this server off your own machine, using your own game. It's not worth getting into that discussion for a research project.
 

Josman

Member
1) Just keep in mind this is still research. If they find this works, but current market conditions would make it unable to release it as-is, they could adapt the technology. For example, instead of rendering on some remote server in a data center, what if you could instead run the server from your desktop machine, and do same-network streaming. Think of it like Steam Streaming, but made for VR. Plus, internet infrastructure is always improving. 5 years from now it will be a different game than today.
2) Agreed. Though, some of your point ties into the above. Bandwidth is the big limiting factor, and of course, the frame rate can depend on latency. However, because they're essentially doing async timewarp, it will be interesting to know how far they could push this. Could they make a good experience at 90 Hz for example?
3) The business model has nothing to do with the technology. See my example for point 1 how they could allow you to run this server off your own machine, using your own game. It's not worth getting into that discussion for a research project.

Yeah I know #3 has nothing to do with the technology but I just point it out as something that could potentially hurt this type of technology adaption, like it happened with X1, but you're right it's not relevant.

And about using your desktop as the remote server, if it's like Steam streaming then it will defeat the purpose of just buying the lenses as it would require a powerfull PC from the user, maybe it would also be easier to develop some sort of wireless HDMI input? I read somewhere that the HTC Vive was going to be wireless I think?
 

Reallink

Member
Would be interested in hearing how they intend to get around the lag introduced by ISP's infrastructures and peering hops.
 

Tesseract

Banned
the idea behind the tech will allow vr to go to a whole other level and Microsoft is ahead of the game in this respect due to having one of the best server structures in the world but as long as ISPs suck its not a viable solution.... at least not in north America.

the video addresses this

using clever warp tricks to mask latency is really cool
 
J

JoJo UK

Unconfirmed Member
irides?
is that an iPhone for commute?
Irides is plural for iris (as in part of your eye) though I've never seen it used (only see the more common irises) even my Windows Phone thinks its a spelling error lol.

Unless you're being sarcastic then I'm too hungover.
 
I don't see this working any time soon:
1.- VR requires consistency for Presence not to break which they seem to achieve in their controlled enviroment, but in the real world ISP's reliability, bandwith caps, speed and latency variability all get in the way
2.- They're using an Oculus DK1 which renders at 720p 60fps, the CV1, Vive, Morpheus and even Gear VR render at a higher res and refresh rate, specs that will be the minimum from now on, I'd like to see them test on those and see if they get the same results
3.- DRM, ownership and yadada

It's nice that they're researching this, but by the time any of the above don't get in the way, hardware won't be a problem, at that point I don't even see VR movies using this instead of cheaper specialized mobile chips. The focus should be on rendering techniques and hardware issues, like almost everyone is doing.

Also, I totally expected them to have their own VR prototype by now, it's dissapointing to see them lagging behind because I want VR to be viable in most gaming platforms.

For 1-3, that's why it's a research project, not a consumer offering.

On the vr headset point, what do you think most people will plug vive/occulis into? A windows pc... Ms don't need to play in that space for pc.

My own theory used to be that OR or Vive would be announced as xbox compatible but facebook and valve don't exactly love Ms so who knows.
 
J

JoJo UK

Unconfirmed Member
For 1-3, that's why it's a research project, not a consumer offering.

On the vr headset point, what do you think most people will plug vive/occulis into? A windows pc... Ms don't need to play in that space for pc.

My own theory used to be that OR or Vive would be announced as xbox compatible but facebook and valve don't exactly love Ms so who knows.
Maybe if OR/Vice are W10 compatible they will be by default XB1 comparable, MS just has to allow the peripheral to 'work' on the console? I know I've very much oversimplified but as previously stated my head has not fully woke.
 
Maybe if OR/Vice are W10 compatible they will be by default XB1 comparable, MS just has to allow the peripheral to 'work' on the console? I know I've very much oversimplified but as previously stated my head has not fully woke.
You're exactly right. Xb1 windows 10 core should allow it to "just work" at a technical level - it'll be more about the business decisions - marketing, xdk support, etc.
 
If a project of Microsoft Research focuses on software (e.g. specific imaging algorithms) and they need hardware to test it they will often just use the most suitable off the shelf components there are instead of developing some specific hardware (or using a prototype in development somewhere else at MS given that they might not even know about it).

Lots of imaging prototyping for mobile applications at MSR has been done on iPhones, simply because Apple puts stronger GPUs in their devices than most other companies.

That is also why some software out of MSR like Photosynth came out for iOS first and only arrived on Windows Phone much later.
 

Josman

Member
For 1-3, that's why it's a research project, not a consumer offering

I never said it wasn't, I said that as a research project, It's a dead end in the context of VR

what do you think most people will plug vive/occulis into? A windows pc... Ms don't need to play in that space for pc.

What do they gain other than some new windows licences? Samsung, Facebook, Valve and their main competitor in the console scene that is crushing them are coming with advanced VR devices with software development ecosystems, and they'll be the late to that party, licencing a third party VR device must be the last option.
 

bj00rn_

Banned
So it's basically a timewarp buffer sent to a thin client? I wonder how Carmack feels about Sony and MS using 2D warp in the ways they do.
 

FordGTGuy

Banned
A new age of not owning games, temporary availability and lag.

You need to start reading the EULAs that come with your discs, you might be surprised.

You own a disc with the right to play the content, mod it when allowed and resell it.

I never said it wasn't, I said that as a research project, It's a dead end in the context of VR

It's a dead end based on the limitations you listed?

Hah.. no.
 

Josman

Member
If a project of Microsoft Research focuses on software (e.g. specific imaging algorithms) and they need hardware to test it they will often just use the most suitable off the shelf components there are instead of developing some specific hardware

Yes, but that's not the point, they must be in early development or something if they're still testing on third party hardware

It's a dead end based on the limitations you listed?

Hah.. no.

Maybe not in the future, but as of today, yes, in the context of VR that implies a lot of restrictions. Maybe dead end sounds hyperbolic but it's going to take a lot of time before the market becomes viable for that technology.
 

FordGTGuy

Banned
Yes, but that's not the point, they must be in early development or something if they're still testing on third party hardware

Microsoft tests on all sorts of hardware in research including Apple and Google products.

Do you honestly expect them to show off a new device randomly in a video?

Edit:double post

A dead-end implies that it doesn't have a future application.

MSR is nothing but future research and a lot of what they do is create technology and patent it.
 

Josman

Member
Do you honestly expect them to show off a new device randomly in a video?

No, I expected to hear about their VR solution by now and show the testing on it, like everybody else is doing. It implies they're behind schedule which was my point.

A dead-end implies that it doesn't have a future application. MSR is nothing but future research and a lot of what they do is create technology and patent it.

In the context of VR. Right now it's not viable because of internet infrastructure and VR resolution, framerate and latency limitations. You're right, dead end is not the right word as it implies it has no future ever, but for the moment it's limited and by the time it isn't there won't be significant hardware limitations.
 
I never said it wasn't, I said that as a research project, It's a dead end in the context of VR
You may be right, but I guess MSR see something in it that's worth investigating. Let's say VR takes off. Let's say the future of (console?) gaming is streaming. This project investigates how you overcome the latency involved, which is way more of a problem than in non-vr scenarios. It may not (likely won't) result in a visible consumer product any time soon, or may result in a bunch of other research to solve some of the additional problems it throws up, but that's the nature of research. If it was a dead end, they wouldn't bother looking at it.

What do they gain other than some new windows licences? Samsung, Facebook, Valve and their main competitor in the console scene that is crushing them are coming with advanced VR devices with software development ecosystems, and they'll be the late to that party, licencing a third party VR device must be the last option.

"some new windows licenses" is a huge part of MS's business model. That's built up over years by making windows an open platform that supports hardware from a range of vendors. MS only has a limited amount of hardware on the market.

Why would they want to sublicense? It would only result in a few £ of margin from hardware sales (even that's debateable given the likely cost pressure). Just let the manufacturers bring their own hardware, people keep buying windows to use it. Conversely imagine the reaction if MS said "Windows will only allow proprietary VR headsets", or "No VR on Windows"?
 
Maybe not in the future, but as of today, yes, in the context of VR that implies a lot of restrictions. Maybe dead end sounds hyperbolic but it's going to take a lot of time before the market becomes viable for that technology.

Ahh I've found the problem: You don't actually mean "dead end", you mean long term project. Which is what research is all about.
 
No, I expected to hear about their VR solution by now and show the testing on it, like everybody else is doing. It implies they're behind schedule which was my point.

Your expectations are wrong - this is a video from Microsoft research. It has very little bearing on whatever products are about to launch in the short term. Think of it like Stanford or MIT or something, that may help your expectations.

Also as above I don't think Ms want to be in the consumer vr market as a hardware manufacturer.
 

Josman

Member
Of course, dead end wasn't the appropiate word, it's research after all, but even if game streaming becomes big in the future, how much latency could this technology help mitigate? keep in mind that VR requires absolut minimum latency and high bandwith because of the high resolution and refresh rate, current infrastructure doesn't allow it, how many years will it take to pass this limitation? By the time it does, hardware won't be a limitation.

But you're right it's just research, with streaming evolving fast someone's gotta do it.
 

Chobel

Member
For 1-3, that's why it's a research project, not a consumer offering.

On the vr headset point, what do you think most people will plug vive/occulis into? A windows pc... Ms don't need to play in that space for pc.

My own theory used to be that OR or Vive would be announced as xbox compatible but facebook and valve don't exactly love Ms so who knows.

Unless these companies announce a XB1 specific SKU, then I don't see that working. Resolution and framerate of OR/Vive (consumer version) exceeds what XB1 is capable of.
 
Unless these companies announce a XB1 specific SKU, then I don't see that working. Resolution and framerate of OR/Vive (consumer version) exceeds what XB1 is capable of.
Well, yeah, I've already expressed my doubts on either of the consoles having enough grunt for compelling vr. Of course you can do it by compromising resolution, IQ, or fov but at some point that becomes a bit of a crap experience. We're way off topic now though :)
 
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