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Player sues Valve over illegal gambling regarding CS:GO

A

ashecitism

Member
Edit: just to be clear this isn't about the crate opening system, but 3rd party sites and betting/trading on them

http://www.polygon.com/2016/6/23/12...t=chorus&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter

A Counter-Strike: Global Offensive player filed suit against Valve today, accusing the game maker of allowing an "illegal online gambling market" to spring up and propagate around the popular online shooter.

Valve Corporation, the suit says, "knowingly allowed ... and has been complicit in creating, sustaining and facilitating [a] market" where players and third-parties trade weapon skins like casino chips.

The lawsuit filed on behalf of Connecticut resident Michael John McLeod alleges that Valve and third-party sites (CSGO Diamonds, CSGO Lounge and OPSkins) "knowingly allowed, supported, and/or sponsored illegal gambling by allowing millions of Americans to link their individual Steam accounts to third- party websites." Through those websites, the suit says, skins for CS:GO, which can be purchased from Valve, "can ... easily be traded and used as collateral for bets."

"In the eSports gambling economy, skins are like casino chips that have monetary value outside the game itself because of the ability to convert them directly into cash," the suit says.

Valve, the suit alleges, directly profits from transactions tied to gambling.
Click to expand...

The full complaint is at the link.
 
T

Two Words

Member
Why would the complainant be deserving of any money? Wouldn't this be like me saying "Hey, X person/company is doing something bad! Give me money!"
 
Heavy's Sandvich

Heavy's Sandvich

Member
Good.

I don't say this lightly, I think it's absolutely disgusting that this is a feature, something that is quietly encouraged.

You can see where the boost in player numbers took place when skins and trading were fully implemented.

It's fucking disgusting.
 
B

Bluth54

Member
Seems like a silly lawsuit, they don't promote or encourage those types of sites in any way, they just provide an API that allows you to login to your Steam account on a third party site.
 
TheRedSnifit

TheRedSnifit

Member
Converting in-game items back to real money is against Valve's terms of service, so I really doubt this will go anywhere.
 
A

andrerobot

Member
11. Plaintiff Michael John McLeod is a resident and citizen of Fairfield County, Connecticut and a customer of Valve since 2014. He is an on-line player of CS:GO and has entered into wagering as described infra. Specifically, Plaintiff purchased CS:GO from Defendant, purchased numerous Skins, gambled them and lost money, and knew that he could cash out the value of the Skins for real money prior to losing them while gambling.
Click to expand...

What a moron.
 
C

Cartman86

Banned
Hmmm would an API count as endorsing? Could they selectively block sites that are reported as gambling sites? Would those sites even fall under that definition since they are digital items and not directly cash? It's all such a round about thing that going after this over the straight up Skinner boxes seems crazy.
 
W

Wolf Akela

Member
Would be nice as a precedent. Gambling is so rampant on mobile games even though there really isn't a way to convert back to cash.
 
S

Squishy3

Member
This suit seems like it should be directed at the sites in question and not Valve. Granted, they're named in the suit too, but as some grand conspiracy between all of them and Valve. The lawsuit says that the SteamAPI links are officially endorsed by Valve but this is one of the things front and center in the SteamAPI terms of service

You may not present the Steam Data (or permit the Steam Data to be presented) so that it appears (a) that your Application is endorsed or affiliated with Valve or Steam, or (b) to be available from a third party.
Click to expand...

You can read the whole thing here. https://www.scribd.com/doc/316578160/Michael-John-McLeod-et-al-vs-Valve-Corporation
 
M

MUnited83

For you.
Wolf Akela said:
Would be nice as a precedent. Gambling is so rampant on mobile games even though there really isn't a way to convert back to cash.
Click to expand...

This wouldn't set a precedent at all for that though.

Squishy3 said:
This suit seems like it should be directed at the site in question and not Valve. The lawsuit says that the SteamAPI links are officially endorsed by Valve but this is one of the things front and center in the SteamAPI terms of service



You can read the whole thing here and he claims it's a complete conspiracy between Valve and the third party betting sites. https://www.scribd.com/doc/316578160/Michael-John-McLeod-et-al-vs-Valve-Corporation
Click to expand...

Yep. Dude has no case here whatsoever.
 
N

NickMitch

Member
Finally!

Many young people are stuck in a gambling addict state regarding CS:GO skins and knives. Rumored cash ins of skins up to 5000$ fuels the idea of getting easy money - much like a casino.

The fact that the authorities have not taken action against this is appaling - especially since there has been a debate and legislation (EU) regarding Free To Play services and the risk of children spending their parents money without consent.
 
L

L~A

Member
NickMitch said:
Finally!

Many young people are stuck in a gambling addict state regarding CS:GO skins and knives. Rumored cash ins of skins up to 5000$ fuels the idea of getting easy money - much like a casino.

The fact that the authorities have not taken action against this is appaling - especially since there has been a debate and legislation (EU) regarding Free To Play services and the risk of children spending their parents money without consent.
Click to expand...

Because CS:GO totally is a game for kids, right.
 
N

Nzyme32

Member
Valve certainly have knowledge, but they don't actually facilitate it. There are plenty of sites that indeed do though. This is the same for what is happening g with all these stollen keys / card fraud. Their system allows for it to happen amongst many other things, and they have knowledge of it happening for sure, but they are not necessarily facilitating it. It could always be argued that they do since their framework allows it
 
TheRedSnifit

TheRedSnifit

Member
It doesn't matter whether or not kids play Counterstrike. It's not up to Valve to monitor the users of every third party site that uses their API.

vazel said:
This was bound to happen eventually. These sites have no real regulations preventing them from doing things like fixing results for streamers to make skin gambling look more appealing for the viewers(which m0e has said happens).
Click to expand...

But why isn't he suing the sites that do this?
 
S

SneakyStephan

Banned
Heavy's Sandvich said:
Good.

I don't say this lightly, I think it's absolutely disgusting that this is a feature, something that is quietly encouraged.

You can see where the boost in player numbers took place when skins and trading were fully implemented.

It's fucking disgusting.
Click to expand...

I'm with you

gambling doesn't belong in videogames, and if it's going to be in them there need to be regulations and a strict R rating for any game that has them (with proper enforcement, similar punishments to a casino allowing minors inside)

And as other posters have said, the fact that governments haven't put a stop to this is shameful
 
D

Dipper145

Member
If there was proper regulations and stuff around these gambling websites I wouldn't have a problem with them, but there aren't.

I'm surprised it took this long for more of them to get shut down or sued. It's past due.
 
L

Lord of Ostia

Member
The person suing is right, at least in the sense that CSGO is a Valve-sanctioned gambling operation. Where I work, kids are constantly betting large sums of money $100+ in skins. Some of them have used their parent's credit cards to buy skins, and some of them have financed PCs this way. It's insane.
 
Tal Shiar Agent

Tal Shiar Agent

Member
Heavy's Sandvich said:
Good.

I don't say this lightly, I think it's absolutely disgusting that this is a feature, something that is quietly encouraged.

You can see where the boost in player numbers took place when skins and trading were fully implemented.

It's fucking disgusting.
Click to expand...
This shit is even creeping into the mainstream space with random number generator microtransactions like Supply Drops in Call of Duty: Black Ops III.


Shit needs stopped fast.
 
NoPiece

NoPiece

Member
SneakyStephan said:
gambling doesn't belong in videogames, and if it's going to be in them there need to be regulations and a strict R rating for any game that has them (with proper enforcement, similar punishments to a casino allowing minors inside)

And as other posters have said, the fact that governments haven't put a stop to this is shameful
Click to expand...

NickMitch said:
Finally!

Many young people are stuck in a gambling addict state regarding CS:GO skins and knives. Rumored cash ins of skins up to 5000$ fuels the idea of getting easy money - much like a casino.
Click to expand...

Heavy's Sandvich said:
Good.

I don't say this lightly, I think it's absolutely disgusting that this is a feature, something that is quietly encouraged.

You can see where the boost in player numbers took place when skins and trading were fully implemented.

It's fucking disgusting.
Click to expand...

dana-carvey-snl.png


You guys know best, right?
 
M

MotionBlue

Member
Heavy's Sandvich said:
Good.

I don't say this lightly, I think it's absolutely disgusting that this is a feature, something that is quietly encouraged.

You can see where the boost in player numbers took place when skins and trading were fully implemented.

It's fucking disgusting.
Click to expand...

100% agreed. Valves weak-armed response to this is telling. Some of the biggest CSGO streams right now are betting streams.
 
D

domlolz

Banned
so whats the difference between the betting people can do with third party sites in dota 2 and cs:go? why isnt dota 2 mentioned?


not that i want it removed from dota, its fun
 
KyanMehwulfe

KyanMehwulfe

Member
Two Words said:
Why would the complainant be deserving of any money? Wouldn't this be like me saying "Hey, X person/company is doing something bad! Give me money!"
Click to expand...
from the complaint
126.

The violations by Valve, Lounge, OpSkins and Diamonds of 18 U.S.C. § 1955 and 18 U.S.C.§ 1962(c) have directly and proximately caused injuries and damages to Plaintiff and Class members
in the form of their losses while betting on defendants’ illegal gambling
websites. As such, Plaintiff and Class members are entitled to bring this class action for three times their actual damages, as well as injunctive and equitable relief and costs and reasonable
attorneys’ fees pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 1964(c).
Click to expand...
basically, it seems it's seeking class action damages for anyone who lost money with what they now propose is unlawful gambling

which i would imagine (totally guessing but i can see the legal logic) has precedent _IF_ it was somehow shown to be unlawful gambling and otherwise negligent in some manner.

but that's a huge if
 
R

rrs

Member
cool victim blaming from some of you
domlolz said:
so whats the difference between the betting people can do with third party sites in dota 2 and cs:go? why isnt dota 2 mentioned?
not that i want it removed from dota, its fun
Click to expand...
More popular due to the wide range of skins and simpler to get into as a game vs dota, along with all the major trade websites being for cs:go?
 
Faynwulf

Faynwulf

Member
He probably bought some Asiimovs and a few knifes. Bet them all on one match and lost. Also isn't there a law against online gambling in connecticut?

You can't cash the Items out. You can sell them on the market, but only for Steamcurrency. Of course there is a Blackmarket for Real Money.

I bet this isn't the first time someone tried to sue Valve over this. (and lost)
 
S

sixghost

Member
MotionBlue said:
100% agreed. Valves weak-armed response to this is telling. Some of the biggest CSGO streams right now are betting streams.
Click to expand...

What exactly do you propose that Valve does to stop this? There's nothing in the actual game or client that encourages gambling or facilitates gambling. Any exchange of CSGO/Dota/TF2 items for money takes place via third parties. The only way they could stop this is to disallow item trading all together.
 
M

MUnited83

For you.
Alienous said:
Good. It should be regulated, like other forms of gambling.
Click to expand...

He's suing the wrong people here.



People don't seem to be actually reading the OP. He isn't suing because of Valve's regular system, he's suuing because the idiot went and on third party sites and gambled his skins there is like suuing the manufacturer of the Magic the Gathering cards because you lost your cards on a stupid bet.
 
R

rrs

Member
This Bloomberg article seems to show a good primer about the gambling scene

stfuppercut said:
He's an adult. He put his skins on a match, that team lost, he lost his skins.

Victim blaming, or using common sense? The dude is mad he lost skins. My question to him is H O W M U C H???
Click to expand...
You could say the same of fantasy sports, which are getting a rectal exam right now.

Hagi said:
I take no issue with wanting to crack down on this 3rd party bullshit but the only thing he's a victim of is his own stupidity.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I can agree these third party sites just don't care about any safeguards when they can have even more cash
 
D

Digby

Neo Member
I remember when CS was more about dropping flash bangs on your team when the round started and obscene spray paint on the walls. Times have certainly changed.
 
T

Tellaerin

Member
Bluth54 said:
Seems like a silly lawsuit, they don't promote or encourage those types of sites in any way, they just provide an API that allows you to login to your Steam account on a third party site.
Click to expand...

This.

I'm really going to be pissed if this ends up killing legit use of the Steam API because some dimwit brought a case against Valve rather than the real parties responsible. Here's hoping that whoever looks at this filing is at least marginally tech-savvy.
 
G

Gamesadict

Member
So, the guy suing either has no idea of how an API and OpenID work and blindly went along, or he knows and is suing Valve because he is trying to get whatever he can out of it (he is supposed to be suing the betting sites, but, what with those terrible betting sites being located outside the US, like the document claims). He didn't even bother reading the Terms of Use, it seems, so I wouldn't exclude the possibility of the former:
Steam Web API Terms of Use said:
5. Limited Relationship. You and Valve are independent contractors, and nothing in these API Terms of Use shall be construed as creating an employer-employee relationship, a partnership, or a joint venture. While you may publicly refer to the fact that you have implemented the Steam Web API, you agree not make any other public statements that assert or imply any other relationship with Valve, unless you have Valve's prior written approval.
Click to expand...
lol @ the co-conspirators line in the document.

Was trying to write something else in this post, but someone in the comments perfectly explained the whole thing better than I ever could:
Wile.E.Coyote said:
This is absurd; the equivalent of suing the NFL because somebody is betting on the sport. Valve bears no responsibility for the matter. Third parties are manipulating systems that are clearly not intended for gambling. While Valve may benefit second hand, they hold no liability to regulate what the third party is doing, beyond ensuring that the experience is not interfering with the system working for the majority of players operating the game as it was meant to be played.

Otherwise, this argument could be extended to any sort of "blind box" where exchange of goods is possible.
Click to expand...

The only case this guy could ever have, is if he could somehow prove Valve are directly partnered with these sites in any way, but as written in the quote I posted from the API Terms of Use, use of the API itself is no proof of that. Even the way the entire document is written is skipping the existence of the API as a whole and instead implies some kind of conspiracy, which seems to be the entire basis for the lawsuit.

At most, we could see those sites having their API access keys revoked, and only if Valve gets annoyed enough by them causing this.

Tellaerin said:
This.

I'm really going to be pissed if this ends up killing legit use of the Steam API because some dimwit brought a case against Valve rather than the real parties responsible. Here's hoping that whoever looks at this filing is at least marginally tech-savvy.
Click to expand...
Exactly.
 
Faynwulf

Faynwulf

Member
Digby said:
I remember when CS was more about dropping flash bangs on your team when the round started and obscene spray paint on the walls. Times have certainly changed.
Click to expand...

It is still about that. CSGO is bigger then 1.6 or Source ever were. I played the game for years without ever caring about Skins. People here act like you get forced to bet. I'd say there is a big difference between betting and gambling. If you bet on a match you know what you did. If your team wins you get more skins, if your teams loses you lose too. But there are website where you basically play virtual roulette or drop a coin. And I'm pretty sure at least half of those scam their userbase.
 
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