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Player sues Valve over illegal gambling regarding CS:GO

G

Grief.exe

Member
TheYanger said:
If wizards supplied the APIs to make it possible, made no effort to try and stop it, and was fully aware that that had become LITERALLY THE ONLY REASON FOR THE CARDS TO EXIST, it might be different. It's not that Valve could completely stop it in all ways even if they wanted to, it's that they basically encourage it, and they bank on it for sales of their keys.

It's not that different from the G2A stuff going on recently, where they KNOW they'er selling plenty of stolen goods, but don't make the slightest effort to stop it because their business is based around it. Valve KNOWS they're essentially selling poker chips, and they make it as easy as possible because they want that buck.
Click to expand...

1. Valve is completely following the letter of the law.
2. The prosecution needs to prove that Valve is knowingly allowing this to happen. You are asserting that they may or may not be complacent due to profits, now try to prove that they are knowingly involved in the continued gambling.

This suit is a joke.
 
TheRedSnifit

TheRedSnifit

Member
TheYanger said:
No, it wouldn't. And you've hit on why in the second paragraph. Valve not only doesn't try to stop it, they're fully aware that that is the primary driver of their economy.
Click to expand...

Where did I hit on this? Valve can't stop it. Even if they removed their API, they couldn't stop it. They'd have to take legal action to shut down third party sites (which is well beyond what they're legally required to do, just like the creators of Magic aren't required to hunt down people gambling with their cards), and even that wouldn't do much depending on where the sites are located.

You also keep insinuating that gambling is "LITERALLY THE ONLY REASON FOR THE CARDS [skins] TO EXIST" without anything to back it up. TF2 has a huge economy, but only a small - small - minority of players gamble on matches (or are even aware that there's a competitive scene at all). You'll have to show some receipts here.

TheYanger said:
Gambling by definition is the notion that you've got the potential to GAIN monetary or material goods, a fixed digital box where you have no way to sell what you get is not the same thing. One is RNG, one is legally considered gambling.
Click to expand...

This is a completely made-up definition of "gambling." The actual legal definition does not have some stipulation requiring you to be able to cash the prize in for money. It simply requires that you pay money into the system and have chance determine what you get in return.
 
J

JaseC

gave away the keys to the kingdom.
CertifiedFP said:
League of Legends used to used to be on Steam until it started to get big and DOTA 2 began to compete with it.
Click to expand...

Not exactly. It was on Steam until Valve implemented support for free-to-play titles and would have had to migrate to the policies of the time (i.e. DLC to be sold on the Steam Store and microtransactions to use Steam Wallet) as it wasn't actually a pay-to-play game. It's probably also worth mentioning that the game wasn't available worldwide, only on select European stores.

Even if you negate the others, THAT'S the Big One right there.
Click to expand...

I disagree. I mean, EA taking Crysis 2 and Dragon Age 2 off Steam to prop up Origin and League of Legends' limited availability becoming worldwide unavailability both happened more than half a decade ago now -- there's precedent, sure, but not anything remotely resembling a trend. Additionally, it's not uncommon for F2P titles to forgo Steam until there's a need for a last-ditch effort to increase monthly active users, as we've seen most recently with WildStar. They're separate beasts to pay-to-play games.

Also as I do recall, there's been a LOT of whispers concerning a Bethesda.Net launcher. I'm not saying the transition will happen this year for any already announced games, but foresight is oft 0/0. Everyone thought Battlefield 3 would be a Steamworks game until it wasn't.
Click to expand...

There has been speculation that's what Bethesda has been moving towards, but that's all it is -- speculation. People suspected that WB Play would mark WB's push towards following EA's dusty footsteps, too, but that launched almost two years ago now and firmly remains as some sort of glorified newsletter service a la the also-years-old Square Enix Account system. Also, just to be perfectly clear, I didn't say that the two examples I gave were proof that a shift away from Steam for Acti and Bethesda wouldn't happen, just that it's not happening. Could B.net and, uh, B.net be retooled for that purpose? Absolutely. Is there any reason to believe that's on the cards, though? None whatsoever beyond "EA did something similar in 2011".

Also I'm pretty sure that Battle.Net as a launcher wasn't until after Steam was a thing. Wasn't Battle.Net ingame-only until they needed a more sophisticated patching system for WoW?
Click to expand...

It wasn't always a digital distribution service, true. But becoming a DD service was a natural progression from the foundation Blizzard had built over the years using B.net as an MP middle-man for its games. I think there's a distinction to make between "A service can be successful enough without Steam" and "A service can be just as successful without Steam". As I theorised in my previous post, Origin points to the former but not the latter, which I would presume is why nobody -- most notably Ubisoft given that Uplay turns seven later this year -- has followed in EA's footsteps (again, though, with the quasi-exception of Microsoft -- I'd liken the WinStore push more as an attempt to replicate Battle.net rather than Origin given that Microsoft previously wasn't in the business of selling its AAA games on Steam).
 
M

MUnited83

For you.
Grief.exe said:
1. Valve is completely following the letter of the law.
2. The prosecution needs to prove that Valve is knowingly allowing this to happen. You are asserting that they may or may not be complacent due to profits, now try to prove that they are knowingly involved in the continued gambling.

This suit is a joke.
Click to expand...

Also, saying that the only reason skins exist is for gambling is freaking ridiculous.
 
B

Bluth54

Member
CertifiedFP said:
Will that still be working out for them in a decade though?

Every 3rd party on with ambition is moving towards creating their own launchers and storefronts where they don't have to pay Valve 30%, nor have their titles sit next to Digital Homicide's latest Kusoge. Origin proved you can defy Valve in the PC gaming space and succeed. GOG is gaining more and more momentum each day. The biggest PC games out there are non-Steam. Overwatch proved a new FPS IP can be successful without Steam, and without the cosmetics market of CSGO and TF2 - In addition to having a much greater lid on hackers than Valve has ever bothered to consider. Hell, a niche VN became a hit and one of the most beloved VNs in the west without a Steam release. Black Desert - That's not on Steam either. Anecdotal, but quite a few people I've been in guilds with in MMOs like WoW, FF14, and Planetside 2 have claimed to have never used Steam at all when I asked for external contact info, instead offering a Skype name or more recently a Discord handle.

Steam lost EA, then Riot Games, almost lost Ubisoft, and there's some warning signs out there that Bethesda might be transitioning away from Steam similarly to Ubisoft - Right now the only developers who I see focusing on making themselves more present on Steam are companies that are too small and/or weak (Either as a whole or just in the PC gaming space) to venture out of Valve's benevolent shadow - Particularly Japanese publishers in this case who until recently assumed PC Gaming = Eroge (IIRC Gust's president unironically asked why westerners like Eroge so much when asked if Gust was interested in expanding into the PC space to capitalize on the large PC gaming market in the west), or indie developers who don't have much of a choice.

...And even then, the most successful indie game ever (Or uh, formerly-indie. It got kinda murky when $2.5 billion changed hands.) was explicitly non-Steam, because the developer thought that Valve wouldn't let his release-model slide. Granted, that was before Early-Access, and I'm fairly certain that Early-Access exists because Valve is kicking themselves to this very day for not getting a 30% cut of the massive amount of revenue that game got they could have gotten had they allowed Early-Access back then.

Honestly though I just think Valve needs a good kick in the balls already. And for one very important reason.

3.
Click to expand...

I think it will work out for them, Steam continues to grow and foster a very large community of PC gamers. We honestly don't know now Origin is working out for EA but is there any doubt at all in your mind that their PC games would sell a lot better their games were sold on Steam like Ubisoft? Obviously UPlay isn't working out well enough for Ubisoft for them to stop supporting Steam.

Sure there are always going to be some PC games that aren't on Steam but Valve built their platform first (at a time where a lot of publishers probably didn't believe there was much of a future for PC gaming), and they have by far the biggest community. Most PC gamers like Steam and I imagine most developers and publishers know they are going to need to keep playing ball with Steam.
 
M

MUnited83

For you.
Bluth54 said:
I think it will work out for them, Steam continues to grow and foster a very large community of PC gamers. We honestly don't know now Origin is working out for EA but is there any doubt at all in your mind that their PC games would sell a lot better their games were sold on Steam like Ubisoft? Obviously UPlay isn't working out well enough for Ubisoft for them to stop supporting Steam.

Sure there are always going to be some PC games that aren't on Steam but Valve built their platform first (at a time where a lot of publishers probably didn't believe there was much of a future for PC gaming), and they have by far the biggest community. Most PC gamers like Steam and I imagine most developers and publishers know they are going to need to keep playing ball with Steam.
Click to expand...

Origin really hasn't been a sucess at all, which you can see by looking at the online population of any online game they have that isn't a numbered Battlefield.
 
B

Bluth54

Member
BernardoOne said:
Origin really hasn't been a sucess at all, which you can see by looking at the online population of any online game they have that isn't a numbered Battlefield.
Click to expand...

I had forgotten about that but yeah you're right, if you look at the concurrent player count for Battlefield and Battlefront they are well under even TF2's normal concurrent player count.
 
J

JaseC

gave away the keys to the kingdom.
sammyCYBORG said:
This type of stuff is creeping into most games (crates, cards, etc) and I'd love a clamp down on it.

So scummy.
Click to expand...

The lawsuit isn't about microtransaction systems. It's claiming that Valve is complicit in gambling that takes place off-site using tradable skins.
 
A

Atomski

Member
TheYanger said:
If wizards supplied the APIs to make it possible, made no effort to try and stop it, and was fully aware that that had become LITERALLY THE ONLY REASON FOR THE CARDS TO EXIST, it might be different. It's not that Valve could completely stop it in all ways even if they wanted to, it's that they basically encourage it, and they bank on it for sales of their keys.

It's not that different from the G2A stuff going on recently, where they KNOW they'er selling plenty of stolen goods, but don't make the slightest effort to stop it because their business is based around it. Valve KNOWS they're essentially selling poker chips, and they make it as easy as possible because they want that buck.
Click to expand...

I think theres a big difference between allowing players to trade and sell skin easier and them taking it to the next level by gambling them.

I dont see how they are encouraging that.. selling and trading sure but gambling? come on..
 
M

Minamu

Member
Why is the US so obsessed with making gambling illegal in the first place? I've always wondered this, seems so strange to me.
 
N

NormalFish

Banned
Do people think Valve isn't complicit with these gambling sites? Basically every CSGO tournament is sponsored by one, or some team is.

Doubt the guy will win, but boy would I like him to.
 
A

ashecitism

Member
Zia said:
That said, it's seriously depressing that pretty much any and all Valve-related news for the last couple years has been about them getting sued, someone talented leaving the company, them making a stupid decision or mistake in regards to Steam or them telling everyone, or being defensive about, how great VR is.
Click to expand...

It's also pretty telling how the discussion surrounding them has died down save for their GaaS' and VR (though they're rather self-contained and not wide reaching). Before, most Valve news would easily get several pages on here for ex or lots of comments on gaming news site, now it's barely anything. People got tired, stopped caring it seems. Together with what you wrote that's pretty bad, but Valve seems to be okay with it? /shrugemote
 
L

LiQuid!

I proudly and openly admit to wishing death upon the mothers of people I don't like
Unfortunately I don't think the suit is going to find much traction but it's a terrible practice that I really wish could be stopped somehow. Like it or not, it's gambling, and Valve is the owner of all the currency in play, regardless of whether or not it's facilitated by third party websites.
 
T

TheYanger

Member
MillionStabs said:
Your have as much luck sueing pachinko companies in Japan

Its not actually currency, just digital objects.
Click to expand...

The difference between Pachinko and this is that Pachinko is in Japan. This lawsuit is in the US. You don't see people trying to wink and nod run pachinko parlors here either, you're right in that it's akin to the "OH NO WE DONT KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING WITH THE METAL BALLS" style of pachinko, but that's pretty damning as a comparison too. Just because Japan doesn't go after Pachinko doesn't mean anyone doesn't know that it's gambling.
 
G

Glass Shark

Banned
I've seen a lot of clips of CSGO gambling and I still have no idea how it works. It always looks like literally clicking a button to flip a coin.
 
P

Phreak47

Member
Hmm, been playing CSGO forever but i'm totally casual and always ignored all this stuff. Getting some stattraks is as far as I went. Wouldn't pay hundreds for a knife nor would I be involved in these sites.

Will be interesting to see all the facts come to light. I can't say I know enough yet to have an opinion on the legalities.
 
C

Cromwell

Banned
This should have happened ages ago.

The CS:GO gambling scene is completely disgusting and Valve should be ashamed of themselves.
 
diablos991

diablos991

Can’t stump the diablos
The crate system should be included too.

Devs know what they are doing when they incorporate this shit and link it to microtransactions.

Trying to get children addicted to gambling. I was hoping this suit was deeper than just 3rd party sites.
 
Y

Yeef

Member
diablos991 said:
The crate system should be included too.

Devs know what they are doing when they incorporate this shit and link it to microtransactions.

Trying to get children addicted to gambling. I was hoping this suit was deeper than just 3rd party sites.
Click to expand...
That's a pretty slippery slope. Then you'd also have to go after things like trading cards and lego minifigures.
 
J

JaseC

gave away the keys to the kingdom.
diablos991 said:
The crate system should be included too.

Devs know what they are doing when they incorporate this shit and link it to microtransactions.

Trying to get children addicted to gambling. I was hoping this suit was deeper than just 3rd party sites.
Click to expand...

The lawsuit isn't happening because McLeod is an upstanding citizen fighting for a just cause. It's happening because he he lost one too many skins and blames everybody but himself.
 
B

Bluth54

Member
Yeef said:
That's a pretty slippery slope. Then you'd also have to go after things like trading cards and lego minifigures.
Click to expand...

Yep. Crates/cases will never be illegal because they're a digital version of trading cards or blind bags. It's not illegal for kids to buy those.
 
T

TheYanger

Member
Yeef said:
That's a pretty slippery slope. Then you'd also have to go after things like trading cards and lego minifigures.
Click to expand...

The thing is most games with crates don't allow you to then go around and hit the 'sell my shit' button right next to the crate. Valve is incentivized to make items EXCEPTIONALLY rare to encourage it because they get a cut when you get the rare item and sell it anyway. Every time it changes hands they take a cut of the money.

A magic card only ever generates revenue for Wizards of the coast once and they all generate the same amount per rarity.
 
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