• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Amy Hennig worked 10.5 years of 80+ hour weeks at Naughty Dog, says AAA not worth it

N

Nirolak

Mrgrgr
GamesIndustry.biz said:
When Soren Johnson, the designer of Offworld Trading Company and the host of the podcast, asked Hennig how difficult AAA development was on a personal level, Hennig replied, "Really hard. The whole time I was at Naughty Dog - ten-and-a-half years - I probably, on average, I don't know if I ever worked less than 80 hours a week. There were exceptions where it was like, 'Okay, let's take a couple of days off,' but I pretty much worked seven days a week, at least 12 hours a day."

And the seven-day working schedule wasn't limited to people on Hennig's level. Johnson posited that weekend work wasn't generally the same, and asked how much of Naughty Dog's team would be present. "A lot of it," Hennig replied. "I mean, Naughty Dog is pretty notorious for the amount of crunch, but obviously in a leadership role you try and do even more."
Click to expand...
While Hennig admitted that she wouldn't change anything that meant she hadn't made games like the Uncharted series, she admitted to having a clearer view of the issue when looking at the experiences of other people. When asked if making AAA games was worth the lifestyle that goes along with it, she replied, "I don't think so."

"There's people who never go home and see their families. They have children who are growing up without seeing them," she said. "I didn't have my own kids. I chose my career in lots of ways, and I could be single-minded like that. When I was making sacrifices, did it affect my family? Yes, but it was primarily affecting me and I could make that choice. But when I look at other people... I mean, my health really declined, and I had to take care of myself, because it was, like, bad. And there were people who, y'know, collapsed, or had to go and check themselves in somewhere when one of these games were done. Or they got divorced. That's not okay, any of that. None of this is worth that.
Click to expand...
Source: http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articl...tely-at-the-point-where-somethings-gotta-give

They have some additional discussion about what types of things the industry could try to lower the burden. One of the ones mentioned is having a lot more development time on a game with less staff. You'll notice Visceral's AAA Star Wars game isn't out until Fall 2018 despite her joining ages ago.

There's also a bunch at the link about AAA's increasing demands in terms of content. To summarize though:

"I mean, Uncharted 1; a ten-hour game, no other modes... you can't make a game like that any more."
Click to expand...

To note, the original podcast:

PillarEN said:
LINK to Podcast page

LINK to iTunes

This podcast deserves as many listeners as it can get.
Click to expand...
 
Z

Zombie James

Banned
Crunch, again, is a huge industry problem not enough people talk about. It comes up once in a while and people have a little chat about it but that's not enough. There needs to be constant attention and a constant dialog if anything is ever going to change.
 
Toadthemushroom

Toadthemushroom

Member
She's right about it being an arms race with no real winner, and she's right to point out that AAA games made within the last generation aren't sustainable any more. It's a shame.

The other problem is the amount of time and resources it takes to make one versus rapidly changing market conditions. By the time your product is ready for release the landscape it's released in is likely to be very different to how it was when it began development, which is probably why there's a much larger focus on episodic AAA games from Square Enix.

They can start getting back revenue as soon as possible, but it only really works for certain types of games, and arguably involving player feedback as part of the development process only serves to increase the amount of focus testing that AAA games must go through.
 
BFIB

BFIB

Member
It sounds like this is a hard life to work. Could these employees unionize or something?
 
N

Nirolak

Mrgrgr
AHA-Lambda said:
Why is she still in AAA then? =/
Click to expand...

I edited pretty slowly, but I added this to the OP to help explain:

They have some additional discussion about what types of things the industry could try to lower the burden. One of the ones mentioned is having a lot more development time on a game with less staff. You'll notice Visceral's AAA Star Wars game isn't out until Fall 2018 despite her joining ages ago.
Click to expand...
 
entremet

entremet

Member
These high production value games don't come out of thin air.

They come at huge sacrifices and this was a 1st party company, which has looser deadlines.

Gamers want better graphics and realism--that comes at a price.
 
Lister

Lister

Banned
Fucking brutal. Never going into game development, unless it's in a lead role where I can make sure neither I nor my team has to ever give up so much for the product.

Another thing that pisses me off are the souless suits at the top, who certainly aren't working 80 hours a week, and yet reap huge dividends on the backs of talented engineers and artists making the games under what are pretty unfair, unethical workign schedules.
 
C

Calamari41

41 > 38
This kind of thing is why I don't get all up in arms calling for scalps when a game gets delayed. I'd rather have a game a year late than ruin a group of people's lives for a period of time while they're forced to crunch and shit the thing out.
 
O

Otnopolit

Member
AHA-Lambda said:
Why is she still in AAA then? =/
Click to expand...

My guess is that she was being polite in not singling out Naughty Dog as being one of the harsher crunch studios, and is now in a place with less insane hours.

I worked only a couple 60 hour weeks in a urban school system and I barely survived. This is just unsustainable, and I cannot fathom the stress of being responsible for the financial success of such an expensive product you pump nearly all your waking hours into. And missing out on time with loved ones! Why is this okay?
 
T

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
I currently work 70-80 hours a week nonstop because I partially own my company, and I'm invested in its long term success

I cannot imagine working 80 hours a week regularly for just a salary. I would fucking walk out of there if there were no indications management was getting its shit together

Fucking games industry
 
F

Fahzgoolin

Banned
this makes me so sad...I don't know how anyone could think this is okay. I would leave in a heartbeat. My marriage would not tolerate that (myself and my wife).
 
W

Wildstar75

Member
It's a shame the game industry is such an awful place to work. I left it after only two years. Even in that time I saw an unusual amount of divorce.
 
T

The Emperor

Member
WHAT!!! That work week sounds absolutely nuts. I did not know this is how it was! I thought healthcare fields and law were bad looool
 
P

PumpkinSpice

Banned
Why would you do this to yourself?

Work in another industry. I make network infrastructure code and leave every day at 3:30pm, never work overtime, and never work weekends.
 
R

Relix

he's Virgin Tight™
This happens a lot in software development when releasing nears closing depending on project management.
 
D

DrunkShogun

Member
Can't argue with the facts. Being a developer takes a lot out of a person. It's why I can't be too passionate in hating developers when they make a bad game because it was probably tough for them from day 1.
 
old

old

Member
Game devs really should unionize and put limits on hours worked per week.

Side note, coincidentally the ad at the bottom of Gaf mobile (for me) is "Crunch Time: from the makers of Red vs Blue."
 
T

Triggerhappytel

Member
Nirolak said:
They have some additional discussion about what types of things the industry could try to lower the burden. One of the ones mentioned is having a lot more development time on a game with less staff. You'll notice Visceral's AAA Star Wars game isn't out until Fall 2018 despite her joining ages ago.
Click to expand...

She joined in, what, 2014? Spending 2014-2018 developing a completely new game (even if a lot of the concept stuff is pre-built when working with something like Star Wars) doesn't seem like a particularly slow turnaround.

EDIT - yeah, looks like she left ND around March 2014 and joined Visceral in April 2014.
 
P

Purple Cheeto

Member
AHA-Lambda said:
Why is she still in AAA then? =/
Click to expand...

There are a lot of people in the industry addicted to work. There are a lot of people who believe next time at the next place it will be different or better.

There's also the fact that there's really only AAA or mobile and mobile isn't any better.

The cost and time to make a good game is astronomical and the number of unforeseen events is high. Unfortunately message board posters and executives don't really care so much about the human cost.
 
entremet

entremet

Member
The Technomancer said:
I currently work 70-80 hours a week nonstop because I partially own my company, and I'm invested in its long term success

I cannot imagine working 80 hours a week regularly for just a salary. I would fucking walk out of there if there were no indications management was getting its shit together

Fucking games industry
Click to expand...

Do you think people who make movies and TV shows also work 40 hour weeks?

They don't either.

However, those industry have strong unions and they work on a gig basis. Development is much more complex to have teams disbands and reform at will like TV and Movies.

But yeah, entertainment comes at a price.

I do think developers should unionize--the issue is that new fresh new faces out of college are willing to replace them very easily since gaming is very fan-centric.
 
B

Bladenic

Member
Zombie James said:
Crunch, again, is a huge industry problem not enough people talk about. It comes up once in a while and people have a little chat about it but that's not enough. There needs to be constant attention and a constant dialog if anything is ever going to change.
Click to expand...

Doesn't seem like she's talking about just crunch time though. She mentions it, but like, crunch time couldn't have been the entire 10 years she spent there doing 80 hour weeks.
 
S

Soi-Fong

Member
Zombie James said:
Crunch, again, is a huge industry problem not enough people talk about. It comes up once in a while and people have a little chat about it but that's not enough. There needs to be constant attention and a constant dialog if anything is ever going to change.
Click to expand...

What outsiders to this industry don't seem to get is that AAA games like Battlefield 1 and Uncharted 4 don't just come out of thin air. It's the result of a shitton of manhours working on the smallest details.

Gamers are constantly demanding better graphics, higher resolution, higher framerates, etc

That doesn't come for free.

Gamers are a picky bunch. Your quote makes sense, but we've already seen with stuff like PSVR where you have numerous people complaining about the graphics and such.

It's an arms race and really the winners are the publishers and gamers. Developers can't complain because then they'll just get replaced.
 
D

Daemul

Member
Back when i was in high school I dreamed about becoming a game dev, but after looking more into the industry and it's working conditions I wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole, it's not worth it in the slightest.

It's also the reason why I get angry when I see people making those stupid "lazy devs" comments. These people sacrifice everything, including spending time with their loved ones, to get people their games and yet some gamers have the audacity to call them lazy. GTFO with that bullshit.
 
N

Nirolak

Mrgrgr
Triggerhappytel said:
She joined in, what, 2014? Spending 2014-2018 developing a completely new game (even if a lot of the concept stuff is pre-built when working with something like Star Wars) doesn't seem like a turnaround out of the ordinary.
Click to expand...

She joined a year after they started.

That said, we can look across EA to see this trend.

Dragon Age 2 -> Dragon Age Inquisition: 3.5 years

Mass Effect 3 -> Mass Effect: Andromeda: 5 years

Battlefield 4 -> Battlefield 1: 3 years

Need For Speed even increased to two year development cycles.

I'd list more examples but uh, EA doesn't release all that many games anymore that aren't annual sports titles...
 
B

benny_a

extra source of jiggaflops
Check out this behind the scenes look from Infamous 1:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3R0foCjUww

It's heart breaking to hear about crunch and how it affects families. I wonder if this is better in western European countries where there are on average the employment situation is more employee-friendly.

I remember speaking to people that worked at JPL and the difference in amount of hours they worked compared to what I did in R&D in Europe was crazy.
 
entremet

entremet

Member
Soi-Fong said:
What outsiders to this industry don't seem to get is that AAA games like Battlefield 1 and Uncharted 4 don't just come out of thin air. It's the result of a shitton of manhours working on the smallest details.

Gamers are constantly demanding better graphics, higher resolution, higher framerates, etc

That doesn't come for free.

Gamers are a picky bunch. Your quote makes sense, but we've already seen with stuff like PSVR where you have numerous people complaining about the graphics and such.

It's an arms race and really the winners are the publishers and gamers. Developers can't complain because then they'll just get replaced.
Click to expand...

Yep.

Gamers are really insatiable to quote Reggie.

You can't have it all. You want amazing graphics and production values, but you also want games coming out a ready clip too on top of reasonable work hours? Where's the compromise?
 
C

Clint Beastwood

Banned
Zombie James said:
Crunch, again, is a huge industry problem not enough people talk about. It comes up once in a while and people have a little chat about it but that's not enough. There needs to be constant attention and a constant dialog if anything is ever going to change.
Click to expand...

There's not a conversation because just look at how much people bitch about Rockstar not releasing a new game. It's been 3 years and people act like it's been an eternity. These companies aren't allowed to take breaks and have employees work normal hours, they have to pump out games yearly and no one cares about the actual employees.

Then news like this comes out and people pretend to care for a week, but nothing will ever come from it.
 
V

ViewtifulJC

Banned
Lol I really wanted to make games as a kid but every game dev I talked to was like pls...don't do it unless you REALLY love it...cuz it's a huge hassle on a variety of levels
 
SmokedMeat

SmokedMeat

Gamer™
Could you imagine putting in all of that time and effort only to have gamers whine and complain about the finished product? I'd want to kill my customers.
 
S

Stone Ocean

Member
family_guy said:
Think the industry would have to collapse for some of these practices to change.
Click to expand...
To be honest, I'm not sure the current method of AAA development is sustainable. It's a massive budget and feature creep bubble and more and more publishers are adding "escape vents" to games - microtransactions, more and more DLC - to try and offset those problems.
 
S

SlickShoes

Member
I dunno how anyone with a family can work on AAA games if they all involve this level of work.

When I worked at Rockstar in QA we worked many 80 hour weeks leading up to the game going gold and prior to that a normal week was about 50-60 hours. I lost friends during my time working there and the only other human I didn't work with I saw was my girlfriend at the time.

I was lucky and worked on a fantastic game, I can't imagine how soul crushing it is doing these sort of hours on a terrible game. I remember getting job offers after R* and just thinking about the prospect of those hours on games I didn't love was enough for me to nope out.

The only way for things to change is for culture to change, technology to slow down, right now if you start making a game and its not out within 4 years or less it's going to look and feel outdated for the most part unless it's an exceptional work of art.
 
O

Oneself

Member
It shouldn't be a race to release so many games... Publishers shouldn't rely on pre-orders and first week sales... That is where the problem is.
 
J

Justinh

Member
Calamari41 said:
This kind of thing is why I don't get all up in arms calling for scalps when a game gets delayed. I'd rather have a game a year late than ruin a group of people's lives for a period of time while they're forced to crunch and shit the thing out.
Click to expand...

I think that's a good way to look at things.

This... really sounds terrible. It sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. I think the best consequence that could result from a work schedule like that is that everyone just quit.
 
N

Nirolak

Mrgrgr
entremet said:
Yep.

Gamers are really insatiable to quote Reggie.

You can't have it all. You want amazing graphics and production values, but you also want games coming out a ready clip too on top of reasonable work hours? Where's the compromise?
Click to expand...

We've seen the industry largely move to service games toward this end.

The development team just makes regular content drops on to existing games that they can much more easily plan for and have way less financial consequences of missing release dates.

The base products also take a very long time to release these days and new ones are much less frequent.
 
SlimySnake

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
Zombie James said:
Crunch, again, is a huge industry problem not enough people talk about. It comes up once in a while and people have a little chat about it but that's not enough. There needs to be constant attention and a constant dialog if anything is ever going to change.
Click to expand...

Relix said:
This happens a lot in software development when releasing nears closing depending on project management.
Click to expand...

This isnt just Crunch. She said this is on average.

There is definitely this weird attitude in software development firms where if you arent working crazy 50-60+ hours a week you are looked down upon by other folks. Basically, working weekends and 60 hour+ weeks has become the norm.

It has nothing to do with crunch. On crunch its even worse, but this is the attitude perpetuated by software programmers and engineers. they have fucked themselves.
 
M

MatrixMan.EXE

Member
People need to understand why Naughty Dog can pull off what they pull off. Majority of it is talent, but I've heard they crunch hard. I'm sure this is the case for a lot of other developers too.
 
R

Rad-

Member
I don't get it. I realize some overtime is sometimes needed but 80 hours a week every week? Why not just hire another person and split the workload at that point? Crazy hours like that sound mega expensive on top of everything else that comes with it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Naughty Dog's next big single player game is not The Last of Us: Part 3.
Game Dev 2 3 4
187
12K
mckmas8808 replied
Former Naughty Dog programmer talks about how a slightly different ending was considered for TLOU 2 (translated from 2020 interview)
2 3
146
8K
cormack12 replied
What Uncharted 4's Original Soundtrack could have sounded like.
0
481
Games of Today replied
Don't Nod says 7 games in the works, 4 of them unannounced | Developer is reorganizing around RPGs, narrative adventure, and action adventure branches
News
16
642
stn replied
Another job listing says Sony’s new studio is working with Naughty Dog on ‘a beloved franchise’
Game Dev 2
52
3K
Moses85 replied
Top Bottom