AmuroChan
Member
Yep, was going to mention that as well. 4 years for a AAA game doesn't seem that much longer than the typical AAA dev cycle.
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Amy Hennig worked 10.5 years of 80+ hour weeks at Naughty Dog, says AAA not worth it
- Thread starter Nirolak
- Start date
Yep, was going to mention that as well. 4 years for a AAA game doesn't seem that much longer than the typical AAA dev cycle.
PumpkinSpice
Banned
Nobody is winning here.
Publishers are getting squeezed and taking much larger risks.
Gamers are getting less "big" games every year.
True.
randomengine
Banned
This is exactly why I never went into video game development despite the fact I have a computer science degree and learned Japanese.
rackham
Banned
Not trying to intentionally sound like an asshole but what work does a writer do for 10.5 hours/day, 7 days/week?
And let's be real here, the writing in uncharted is nothing special or amazing. About as generic as you can get and by the time 3 comes around, feels like they gave up writing anything substantial or meaningful. Instead it was "hey look this guy is a magician, kind of. Maybe this old lady is a lot older, maybe. And check out these spiders we borrowed from Indiana jones and The Mummy. I mean, totally original spiders. Yah.."
And let's be real here, the writing in uncharted is nothing special or amazing. About as generic as you can get and by the time 3 comes around, feels like they gave up writing anything substantial or meaningful. Instead it was "hey look this guy is a magician, kind of. Maybe this old lady is a lot older, maybe. And check out these spiders we borrowed from Indiana jones and The Mummy. I mean, totally original spiders. Yah.."
On first party, I imagine some of the concern is budget. Ubisoft and EA can put 500-1000+ people on a game pretty easily. Sony, it's harder.
She was a creative director.
CrichtonKicks
Member
I mean there are people in the Gears 4 review thread complaining about the graphics and they just published an article earlier this week talking about the crunch getting that one out the door.
Purple Cheeto
Member
There aren't nearly enough good, adequately trained, project managers/producers in the world regardless of the type of software you make. I've worked places where even though we made software the people running the company said we were a marketing company and refused to follow proper project management process.
Video games is the same. Too many people in charge and end users who don't think of it as software development.
Not only that but you want games to either stay the say price forever or become even cheaper. You can't have it both ways.
foxuzamaki
Doesn't read OPs, especially not his own
When it comes to the AAA industry it seems like only nintendo somehow always gets high employee satisfaction and stuff like that, is it because their games arent usually doing the standard AAA type of games?
Eh, a small handful of enthusiasts talking about crunch on a web forum isn't really going to do much to fix the problem. This isn't a consumer issue (not directly anyway). "A constant dialog" is important, but not coming from outsiders like us. The industry needs to sort out this matter for itself.
Resident_UA
Member
So? How does it make it worth it working 7 days a week?
Stone Ocean
Member
How are gamers winning? We get less games, less franchises, less niche games, shitty launch practices from pre order bullshit to products that weren't ready to ship and everything is homogenized like some videogame production line to make sure these games sell to as many people as possible.
Battlefront 2 will be out next year probably.
Add to that even the review process for games. Here in GAF anything below an 8.0 - 8.5 is a bargain bin buy. As a developer myself hearing that sort of thing really gets to you. When you worked so hard on something and based off some reviews, all that work is whittled down to "bargain bin," that freaking hurts.
It's an industry where innovation reigns supreme, but that innovation comes with a heavy price.
I'm pretty sure it's the reason why many devs at AAA studios eventually leave to form indie studios.
For those who say, that devs should unionize and put limits on work hours.. That comes with a price as well. Games that have a dev time of 3 years will now take 4 or 5 years. Publishers therefore have to pay more. That won't come free and more charged DLC will be passed down to the consumer. Then you have the ire of the gamers complaining about said DLC. It's an endless cycle.
There's a cause and effect for everything in development. Nothing is as easy as just "let unionize and limit work hours!"
Riot has been pretty well known for being a great place to work: http://venturebeat.com/2015/12/10/l...loper-on-glassdoors-best-places-to-work-list/
Justin Richmond actually ended up there after being at Naughty Dog. A lot of people were like "What? Why!?!" in the thread that was announced, but I think this helps paint the picture.
TimeEffect
Member
Curious how much she made. I think a lot of young folks would kill for a job with ND... get a few years dedicated to the job, make lots of money, but eventually you need to cut clean from that crazy work culture.
To add, it seems like a toxic cycle. Youll have people come in who want nothing to do but to work, while others deteriorate from the intensity. Those who want to make the money, experience, and go above and beyond will always be there, and the rest are forced to keep up, against their will.
To add, it seems like a toxic cycle. Youll have people come in who want nothing to do but to work, while others deteriorate from the intensity. Those who want to make the money, experience, and go above and beyond will always be there, and the rest are forced to keep up, against their will.
gundamkyoukai
Member
Yeah i mean you can get away with that because that game can sell with SW name .
It would be hard to do that with new IP or other games.
So don't think that really solves the problem facing AAA games.
Battlefront 2 is out next year. If you're interested in a campaign, EA Motive seems to be making one for it.
This is also an example of what I meant earlier. When EA wants a major feature added to a product, they can just grab an entire new studio and put it on the project instead of trying to lump all the pressure onto DICE because of economies of scale. Not everyone can.
Yes. Most of the discussion revolves around just making digital downloadable titles with variable pricing, but obviously we're moving out of AAA at that point.
Unfortunately that doesn't solve the problem. SaaS or not, you can't miss deadlines If your product is not successful enough.
Herbspiceguy
Member
I think it's extremely sad that this is still the state of the (AAA+) videogames industry.
I don't see things changing for companies like Rockstar or Naughty Dog anytime soon because they're being heralded as industry kings and the majority of the gaming community will look away due to the quality of their games.
I don't see things changing for companies like Rockstar or Naughty Dog anytime soon because they're being heralded as industry kings and the majority of the gaming community will look away due to the quality of their games.
Garrett Hawke
Member
the worst bit is unrealistic work expectations & crunch are dismissed by the public if the product is good.
see red dead redemption.
see red dead redemption.
Riot isn't constantly making new games though. They have a cash cow that they just have to keep updating to keep up with the meta.
That's different from a studio like ND.
HandsomeCharles
Member
I'm in crunch right now. We're doing roughly 12 hour days, but it's going to finish up in the next few weeks (because the game will be released) , then it'll be back to the regular 9-5.
It's one of the major benefits of not having a publisher. We never work weekends (even now) and the vast majority of the time we don't do ridiculous days. There are some people who choose to do extra, but it's entirely voluntary and you're not looked down upon for leaving at five. It's a nice environment.
I know folks in AAA though, and I feel sorry for them.
It's one of the major benefits of not having a publisher. We never work weekends (even now) and the vast majority of the time we don't do ridiculous days. There are some people who choose to do extra, but it's entirely voluntary and you're not looked down upon for leaving at five. It's a nice environment.
I know folks in AAA though, and I feel sorry for them.
The Emperor
Member
Will your eye bags be bigger than Tabata's at the end?
Pre-book a plastic surgery appointment.
lol jk
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This is why if I ever get into videogames it'll be small time indie or as a writer in a team with a good working environment /delusions
Calamari41
41 > 38
That's actually a really good point. If someone is working double time, you're basically paying for an extra person and a half. You could hire two people at 40 hours per week, actually save money, and have the added benefit of not literally working your employees to the edge of death. If you're worried about carrying a bloated payroll once the project is done, just hire on contract the same way other project-based industries (aerospace,etc) operate.
Is this a trick question?
I feel like a AAA game being developed over a long period of time isn't going to make matters better for developers. Even with less people over a longer period of time to get the same result, you're running the risk of not enough games coming out if you're a publisher or manufacturer.
So what's going to have to end up happening in most cases is scopes will have to be drawn back to make things more manageable.
So what's going to have to end up happening in most cases is scopes will have to be drawn back to make things more manageable.
schaft0620
Member
She has it pretty easy imagine the person with 2/3 kids making $40K/year doing that.
I never said its worth it.
Clint Beastwood
Banned
Dark_3nergy
Member
I have someone very close to me that worked those hours for over 25+ years. It is NOT worth it. The money isn't worth endangering your health, nor your mind.
GasProblem
Member
Man, I can't imagine the crunch the FFXV guys are going through now.
Purple Cheeto
Member
I've never met a software engineer who wants to unionize.
SlickShoes
Member
I don't think the amount of money made even matters in these cases.
When I finished crunch at R* from doing basic QA I had £10k in the bank, mostly because I had no time to spend a large part of the money I earned, I also put on 3 stones in weight, had trouble sleeping and barely seen daylight for 3 months but as long as I got dat sweet money eh!
Amen to that.
I'm down from 50-60 to 32 and even with the pay cut this is way better.
And I used to chuckle at the concept of work/life balance. I was wrong.
(I mean I also had a stretch where I was working ~80 hours a week and I couldn't handle it. It poisons everything.)
entremet
Member
Antipathy to unionization is very common in the white collar sector.
There is less solidarity unlike blue collar workers. White collars workers seem themselves as hired hands.
visiblemode
Member
This is one of the reasons I get so annoyed when people have such hipster attitudes about AAA games. It's frustrating because these poor devs pour their lives into these games, I think that demands at least a minimal level of respect(hopefully a lot more).