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Empathy - "But I can't relate to a girl!"

Veelk

Banned
I'm a 40 year-old male and the notion of playing as a teenage girl seems off-putting and not entertaining whatsoever to me.

I'm not a female, nor am I a teenager - so that makes me not relate to Ellie and makes me uninterested in playing as her.

So these are two quotes from someone in the TLoU2 thread, which makes me believe it's time to revisit the topic of empathy. When the poster who wrote that got responded to, he got dogpiled. Granted, this attitude and his defense for it is quite poor, but the problem with having dozens of people responding negatively to you at once means that there's little discussion to be had, just because on person gets so overwhelmed. I imagine there are a few posters on here who have the same sentiment, perhaps not as strongly, that don't speak up about it in fear or disinterest of dealing with a dozen people telling them their wrong. So, this is a topic to try and make it more nuanced.

Let me say this much as a preface: If you honestly find yourself unable to relate to another person (or a representation of one) because of something as trivial as their gender, ethnicity, or sexuality, then you are not considering who they are as a whole human being. That's okay. We have a lot of shit that specifically tries to train us to do that in our culture. The only problem is if you are unaware of it and do not try to improve on it.

So...the thing about empathy in relation to gaming (and art in general) are 3 main points.

1. Excepting sociopaths, you can relate to almost anything (and even then, there are exceptions)

This is kind of the basic crux of all fiction. Just consider the success stories we've had. We've related to robots, bug aliens, Animals (this one I don't think needs a film example), all things that are distinctly not human. We've even had one of the most successful relations to inanimate objects in gaming. The only reason it's a meme is because it's real for many.

To this sentiment, it's kind of insulting to try and say that we are unable to empathize or relate to other human beings because they are of a different gender/ethnicity/etc. Yet that is the exact sentiment we get from many people, both in and outside of gaming. One of the most annoying and disgusting examples is Rue, where readers of the Hunger Games were distraught to discover that a little girl who was a sympathetic and tragic figure in the story turns out to have been black.

As disgusting as this response may be, put away the emotional response for the moment and just look at it clinically: Why? Why is it that we have no problem feeling empathy to robots, aliens, and even objects, but other human beings may not?

2. Empathy takes effort and imagination

It does. A lot of people think empathy is a passive activity. That you just sit back, are presented with something, and you either feel, or you do not. And you can do that, but if you do, you run the risk of letting personal bias's control what you feel. So you have to try.

How do you try? Well, games are actually one of the best mediums for getting started on this. Sort of. Technically, books are the ones who have been scientifically proven to expand empathy, because they describe thoughts and give you a strong sense of the worldview of another person. One of the best things, other than going out and talking to other people, is to sit down and read a good book. However, I feel videogames are also very well suited for this task as well. And appropriately enough, a great example is the Last of Us DLC, Left Behind.

latest

I am not a girl, I've never been in love with a black girl, I'm not gay, and it's been a long time since I've been 12 years old. But this is one of the best experiences of LGBT relationships I know of in gaming. But it's not enough to sit back and play through it and not think on it further. The reason this is as rewarding as it is is because this helps inform us of who Ellie is as a person. This relationship she had was central to her life before Joel and Tess, and by the end of the game, it's this relationship that she mentions to try and express her deeper self to him when she asks for the truth. The heart of her arc is how she hates to be alone. And The Last of Us was a complete game before this DLC got released...but to fully appreciate who Ellie is, you have to imagine how it must have been to be her, to be in love with another girl, to lose her, and how that weighs on her for the entire game.

That is when you have fully empathized with Ellie.

3. It's good for you.

This one, I hope, is self explanatory. As much as empathy helps, we have a sense of tribalism that we've developed and hold onto even into this modern age. It's very, very easy to break down a person into some kind of 'other', which you see as alien and unrelatable. You take anything, such as the gender, and you make it the defining characteristic above all others, and making the actual person who they are inaccessible. But in this modern age, othering is more counterproductive and has caused more problems for any given group than it has solved. Empathy, however, lets you truly understand others.

So, if anyone feels some kind of barrier, some kind of incapability to relate when they see a character...any character...I say try. You may not always succeed, but it's an endeavor worth undertaking.
 

MazeHaze

Banned
Well said. As a white male, I personally don't really care much for playing as white males, specifically because I feel a disconnect that takes me out of it. Sure I'm a white male, and so is the character, but when said character doesn't react to things the same way I would, it takes me out of it.

I just recently realized that when given a character creator, I always make a black male or a woman.


Edit: Also those 2 quotes in the OP are interesting. You could make the same arguments for white male characters even if you're a white male. I.E, I'm not 35 years old, bald, and in super-soldier grade physical condition, so the idea of playing as a mid 30's dude who's 250 lbs of pure muscle is off-putting and unrelatable.

I'd argue that physical fitness and age are more of a barrier to relatability than gender or skin color.

Edit edit: it's been pointed out to me that this post is not entirely in the spirit of my original intention. I appologize, that's not what I meant, it was worded poorly and with racial constraints, which I have no excuse for.

What I meant was, if I'm playing as a character that is supposed to be me, if they don't act like me, it's already a disconnect, so unless the main character is exactly like me in every way, I can't relate.

This has never happened, no character has ever been like me, so I would rather play a character that is nothing like me.

Triple edit: I'm not saying playing the opposite of yourself is preferred, but in a world where more than 9 out of 10 games I play as a buff white dude, that shit bores me to tears.
 

J_Viper

Member
I'll never understand the need to "relate" to a character.

I can't relate to Geralt, I can't relate to Max Caulfield, I can't relate to Jensen, yet I still find them all to be great characters that I care about.

Is it some sort of odd "self-insertion" thing?
 

Raylan

Banned
I'm not a female, nor am I a teenager - so that makes me not relate to Ellie and makes me uninterested in playing as her.
I'm a 40 year-old male and the notion of playing as a teenage girl seems off-putting and not entertaining whatsoever to me.
I never understood this way of thinking. I was a RPG gamer all my life. I don't care if I'm a dude, woman, boy, girl, an animal, an alien, a....thing, whatever. Playing someone... something different makes the whole experience even more interesting.
 

Anarky

Banned
"I can't relate to playing as a girl or black person" Says man currently playing a game where you play as a green fucking dinosaur.
 
I almost always prefer playing as women in games when given the choice so I'm hyped. Also means more Ashley Johnson which is always a good thing.
 
Yeah, I can get a protagonist being too unlikable like a mass murderer but I can usually accept playing as any character.
One of my favorite games has you playing as a shape shifting 10 year old elf boy and a cartoony plumber that can jump real good in space
And also a good 100 year old librarian witch lady whose dress is made of her hair. She's the best
 

MazeHaze

Banned
I'll never understand the need to "relate" to a character.

I can't relate to Geralt, I can't relate to Max Caulfield, I can't relate to Jensen, yet I still find them all to be great characters that I care about.

Is it some sort of odd "self-insertion" thing?

The reason I love MGS so much is that I'm a 40 year old clone of the greatest soldier to ever live.
 
remember that GAF thread when San Andreas was announced and dudes aid they "cant relate to black thug culture"

look how far we've come
 
It's worth noting that there are generally two types of characters people like to play as (or read about/watch when it comes to other mediums). Characters they can relate to, and characters they can look up too. The issue is that society generally tries to suggest it's unacceptable for people of the opposite gender to fall under either category to an extent
 
I'll never understand the need to "relate" to a character.

I can't relate to Geralt, I can't relate to Max Caulfield, I can't relate to Jensen, yet I still find them all to be great characters that I care about.

Is it some sort of odd "self-insertion" thing?

I think many people use it as an excuse for sexism, homophobia, racism, etc. not wanting to play as a black character, or gay character, or female character, or whatever.
 

Cynar

Member
Honestly don't think this needed a thread. You don't have to be like the character. I'm not a fat Italian plumber, or a female witch and I'm fine playing all sorts of games or watching many forms of media. The smack down could've just been delivered in the original thread instead of gunking up GAF with another thread that's not about a specific game. I miss when this type of thread would be in the community section instead of gaming.
 
I really love playing as Yoshi, because every day I shit eggs out of my rear and throw them at my enemies. Such a relatable character.

Great OP. People who say things like this are ridiculous, and are usually closed-minded straight white males who are uncomfortable with the idea of a character not designed as a power fantasy specifically for them.
 

Veelk

Banned
"I can't relate to playing as a girl or black person" Says man currently playing a game where you play as a green fucking dinosaur.

I always struggle when playing a Sonic game, because I can't relate to being a hedgehog.

I'm not a plumber and I'm not Italian.

How am I supposed to relate to jumping on turtles?

I know what you guys are trying to go for, but different games require different relationships with the player. Something like Mario isn't a narrative game, so it doesn't necessarily matter who your playing as, because you're playing for the gameplay. To what I am describing is relating to the character in the story sense. Which you can do with all these examples, but I don't think that's what you guys had in mind.
 

El Topo

Member
Some people simply have these issues, that's just how it is, no need to mock them. That is why I am a big proponent of giving players options. Not possible to implement for every game of course.
 

ReaperXL7

Member
I think part of the issue is that many people who play games view the characters as an avatar for them to live vicariously through. It's something I think is easier in games more then other media because your in control of the character and the majority of their actions.

As an example I almost always will choose a game that lets me create a character then one that will not, it's why RPGs appeal to me so much because I get to decide who my characters are, what they are good at, etc. My daughter often isn't interested in games where the main character is male or if the game doesn't allow her to play as a female character.

My view on playing games with female characters has changed a lot as I've gotten older and since I've had my daughter, but I still largely would rather play as a character representative of myself in a game when the option is there. It's tough because there aren't very many games with Native American protagonists but that's why I enjoy character creators as much as I do.
 
this just shows how important representation is. the fact that those people can't relate to this one character should tell them how a lot of non-white male gamers feel when playing the majority of games
 
There are people who create or play as a character, and there are people who insert themselves into the character. The psychology behind the way people relate to characters is fascinating and it's a challenge for the writers when they want the players to empathize with the characters and the conflicts they face. You have some that will create a full blown character and you'll either love them or hate them, or they'll essentially leave them as a blank slate, encouraging the player to insert themselves into their boots.

Neither type of player is right or wrong, and as soon as we start suggesting otherwise, we're going to lose a lot of creative freedom of expression and storytelling tools.
 

MazeHaze

Banned
Honestly don't think this needed a thread. You don't have to be like the character. I'm not a fat Italian plumber, or a female witch and I'm fine playing all sorts of games or watching many forms of media. The smack down could've just been delivered in the original thread instead of gunking up GAF with another thread that's not about a specific game. I miss when this type of thread would be in the community section instead of gaming.

I'd argue that this thread is necessary because the argument is relevant, and opens a nice discussion about the latent sexism and double standards that permeate not only our culture as gamers, but society in general.
 

PaulloDEC

Member
I'll never understand the need to "relate" to a character.

I can't relate to Geralt, I can't relate to Max Caulfield, I can't relate to Jensen, yet I still find them all to be great characters that I care about.

Is it some sort of odd "self-insertion" thing?

This is exactly where I'm at. I can't relate to Ellie any more than I can relate to Batman, but that doesn't make me any less able to enjoy their respective stories.

As you say, I think this must be related to the divide between people who see themselves "as" the character in their games, as opposed to just being someone joining them on their adventures.
 

Izuna

Banned
I honestly thought this was a parody thread, and after reading the two quotes, I really thought it was.

I'm pretty surprised people can care about this. Perhaps because I've barely ever had a character I could directly relate to over the years.

Also OP, how can you say you've never been in love with a black girl? Sounds like you need to discover old Kelly Rowland.
 

Metfanant

Member
It doesn't bother me to play as a teenage female if the story is written in that manner...but who am I to judge someone that it does bother?

We all react to things differently
 

DMONKUMA

Junior Member
I basically cannot play anyone as there is no German/Filipino dudes in games.....How am I suppose to enjoy Overwatch for christ sake!!!!!!

I really hate things like this.
 

OldMan

Banned
I mean, hasn't this been going on with Jrpgs for a while and now all of a sudden an Australian developer does it some 40 yr old gets triggered?!
 

MazeHaze

Banned
this just shows how important representation is. the fact that those people can't relate to this one character should tell them how a lot of non-white male gamers feel when playing the majority of games
Quoted for truth. Minorities and women have to deal with this "unrelatable" main character in the vast majority of games.
 
Honestly don't think this needed a thread. You don't have to be like the character. I'm not a fat Italian plumber, or a female witch and I'm fine playing all sorts of games or watching many forms of media. The smack down could've just been delivered in the original thread instead of gunking up GAF with another thread that's not about a specific game. I miss when this type of thread would be in the community section instead of gaming.

I mean, you don't have to engage with every discussion had here. And with people reaffirming how they feel about this kind of thing with the reveal of TLoU II I think it's as worthwhile discussion to have.
 

Nirolak

Mrgrgr
I'm a 40 year-old male and the notion of playing as a teenage girl seems off-putting and not entertaining whatsoever to me.

I'm not a female, nor am I a teenager - so that makes me not relate to Ellie and makes me uninterested in playing as her.
Gee, imagine how all those teenage girls who share your inability to relate to others must have felt for the last 30 years of gaming.
 

Davide

Member
Neither of the two quotes seem to indicate that they can't empathize with a girl.

For a primarily story driven cinematic game like The Last Of Us, I say bring on a female lead, I'm really interested mainly in the written story. But there's other cases where as a male it's probably more important or at least more relatable for me for the main character to be male. While TW3 is also story driven, we're also somewhat in control of Geralt's character - unlike Joel in TLOU - and the idea of playing as Ciri doesn't interest me so much. I'll always play as male Shepard in Mass Effect. And I know this obviously isn't going to be the same for everyone.
 

Platy

Member
I'll never understand the need to "relate" to a character.

I can't relate to Geralt, I can't relate to Max Caulfield, I can't relate to Jensen, yet I still find them all to be great characters that I care about.

Is it some sort of odd "self-insertion" thing?

It looks like that you relate to at least some of the experiences Geralt and Max lives... because otherwise you would not be able to care about them
 

Toli08

Member
Why care what sex, color, height, weight whatever you can think of. It's video games they are a escape from reality. It should be the creators choice if they want to make a game with a teenage girl as the lead it shouldn't have to even be discussed.

I will never understand why you have to feel like "you" are the character that you are playing. If it's a pre determined character then what you are doing is just playing a movie that lets you spend so much more time in the creators universe.

All I care about in my video games is are they fun. Is the story captivating to keep my attention, because there is so much stuff out there to view or play. I have been gaming since 1991 and I have never said yuck don't want that game because you play as a girl or robot or alien or whatever else you can think of.

It legit blows my mind that people actually look at things like that.
 
I personally don't have the energy to have such nuanced debates so props to you OP. The whole "I can't relate thing" is something that is spoken from a place of...white privilege. When I play videogames, or watch movies 90% of the time I'm going to be playing or watching a white male character. I'm not white yet I'm able to relate and empathise easily.

So I struggle to feel sorry/bad for someone when they use that "Can't relate" nonsense. I just gotta walk away.
 

creatchee

Member
I don't want to relate to a character in a video game in general - video games are not only an escape for me from the real world, but an escape from the person I am in that world.
 

Veelk

Banned
I think part of the issue is that many people who play games view the characters as an avatar for them to live vicariously through.

As an example I almost always will choose a game that lets me create a character then one that will not, it's why RPGs appeal to me so much because I get to decide who my characters are, what they are good at, etc. My daughter often isn't interested in games where the main character is male or if the game doesn't allow her to play as a female character.

My view on playing games with female characters has changed a lot as I've gotten older and since I've had my daughter, but I still largely would rather play as a character representative of myself in a game when the option is there. It's tough because there aren't very many games with Native American protagonists but that's why I enjoy character creators as much as I do.

I feel this is possible with predefined characters as well though. I am a major fan of action games, but Dante and Bayonetta are far more suited for me living through than Kratos is. It took me a long time to realize it, but one big problem is that Kratos never seems happy. Not even when I am tearing through the monsters he hates. Dante and Bayonetta are often clearly having fun. This is a synergy that allows me to enjoy DMC and Bayonetta in a way I can't with Kratos. I don't know if this counts as me failing to relate to Kratos, but there is definite disconnect for me between me, him as a character, and him as a gameplay avatar.
 

MazeHaze

Banned
Gee, imagine how all those teenage girls who share your inability to relate to others must have felt for the last 30 years of gaming.

Right. This brings up the bigger issue here. The two quotes in the OP, to me, read as "games are for white males, and if a game doesn't target that audience above all else, I'm not interested."
 
D

Deleted member 80556

Unconfirmed Member
I'm beginning to find a deep vicious cycle in which people do not feel empathy for people who are different from them, and do not want or actually put up heavy resistance to being in situations in which their empathy for said different people can improve.

This can only be solved by a good amount of media that makes people get watch these movies or play these games. Fiction and documentaries can help at improving empathy, if you give them the chance.

Thanks for the post, Veelk.
 

Anung

Un Rama
Even though I'm a white guy with a beard and wear flannel shirts I can't relate to Joel because he's a psychopathic asshole.

If anything I enjoy trying new perspectives and games are a real cool way to explore that.
 
This is also why playable women are almost always asexual or lesbians. Straight men just can't stand to play as a woman who is attracted to men, and seem threatened by the idea that a game would ask them to view a fellow man as an object of affection.
 
As you say, I think this must be related to the divide between people who see themselves "as" the character in their games, as opposed to just being someone joining them on their adventures.

Which has also been the historical split between western and eastern games. The Japanese audience tends to want to inhabit a role as if they're part of a play, while the western (white male) audience tends to want to see themselves inserted into the play. Of course both of these are really just social conditioning, but I think some men who grew up only playing characters whose gender/race/sexuality perspective they can identify with are suddenly being faced with more diverse roles and they're confused.
 
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