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What exactly went wrong with "modern" Chris Claremont (of Xmen fame)?

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Boogiepop

Member
So, I'm just about done reading the third Uncanny Xmen by Claremont omnibus. Which is the last one produced, but his run does admittedly carry well after that, so I certainly haven't come close to reading all of his old stuff. But that's still a big, hefty chunk of comics that frankly still hold up as solid classics. But it's kind of interesting to think that Claremont's totally still around, but after a number of failed attempts at series in the 2000s and on, he seems to have gone dormant and is apparently effectively being paid by Marvel not to write at this point (from what I remember of that thread, it's effectively that they don't want him doing work for competitors, but I guess due to his recent track record, they also don't really want anything from him.)

Additionally, his modern writing seems to be generally disliked, far as I can tell. Of that stuff, I've only really touched his bit on Exiles, and yeah... much as that book was already declining, he absolutely murdered it the rest of the way with some real crap.

So yeah, what exactly makes his modern work so poor, while his earlier stuff is so beloved? Is it simply the change in times making him "outdated," or are there other issues at play? Like, one thing I realized in thinking on this is that back in the day, he was almost entirely playing with his own toolbox, and was given ample time to do so. As in, pretty much his entire team was his own creations, as were a lot of the supporting cast and villains. Heck, far as I can tell, a lot of the stuff even linked to other works in his Uncanny X-men was stuff he worked on (like how Misty Knight becomes Jean's roommate, likely due to Claremont working on Iron Fist, or the way that Carol Danvers became so involved with the Xmen, after Claremont had a decent sized run on Ms Marvel). And one of his greatest strengths in writing during his Xmen (of what I've read) was that he was able to carefully weave together plot threads, with a ton of elements always being developed over time in the background. So yeah, it seems of at least some note to me that he was so heavily in control of his cast and developments, and largely didn't need to worry about what was developed by other writers. Which is at least part of the problem with his Exiles: it just fits horribly with the comics that come before his issues.

Of course I have very limited exposure with him in the past 2 decades, and I admittedly haven't read a good chunk of his old stuff, so I'm far from the best person to be analyzing this. But I'm sure we have people on here who are plenty knowledgable, so does anyone have some insight into what exactly happened to so thoroughly change the reputation (and likely quality in general) of his comics over the course of these decades?
 
If I'm being perfectly honest, his old stuff wasn't that great either. I just think he did some memorable stories during a time when the X-Men weren't getting a lot of memorable stories.
 

Slayven

Member
Last i read from him was the Nightcrawler solo from just after his resurrection. It followed the typical solo x-men book curse of being boring.
 

Glix

Member
I think hes shtick of dangling 100 plots threads at a time wore thin when we realized he didn't have the answers.

Shit like The Twelve, for example.
 

Matty77

Member
It isn't just now. He went off the rails long before his first run ended and replacing him was the right move, the wrong move was giving the control to artists that would bolt to create image not long after.

But yeah there were just as many stinkers as classics in his original run and I say that as someone who just read through it plus New Mutants and Excalibur in the last couple of weeks.
 
Some of the posts in this thread are MADNESS. Respect. X-Men wouldn't be where it is today without his contribution. Emphasis on CONTRIBUTION.

Claremont was definitely a product of the time, and he was able to create a type of story and template that just can't be reproduced. Even by him.

For starters, he had ACE editorial team(s). He came on to the book when nobody gave a damn about X-Men and it's a lot easier to play with something when it wasn't on the radar.
Over the years, people forget that Claremont worked with fucking PHENOMENAL writers / editors. Ann Nocenti. Jim Shooter. Claremont is best when he's collaborating. John Byrne. Paul Smith. The stories are best when the artists also have a good understanding of story and they work well together, or there's a strong editorial direction that lines up with the team's sensibilities.
You can tell that Marvel was this hugely creative environment at the time. Marvel was this huge playhouse for artists and writers to get together and play together with the purpose of a unified universe.

1. Claremont - and a lot of writers at the time - wrote stories that felt more like serial soap operas that relied heavily on the tools of the medium. Often, the dialogue was slower paced. Less snappy. Longer moments set aside for character growth that don't necessarily push the plot. (Ororo, you really don't like being in enclosed environments, do you? Kurt, does this make you question your belief in God? etc). Also, just look at his contemporaries who he was inspired by at the time. People whom he read in his free time. Elfquest. Wandering Star. Or even Star Trek. Work that was so distinctly 80's and character-heavy that nobody today would have the patience for. Comics as a whole was just very different then.


2. One of the worst things to happen to american comics was when they began to copy the tools and pacing of television. One of Claremont's most powerful tools was the inner thought bubble. That tool totally disappeared during the modern age (the bendis years), but it allowed a character to speak one thing and THINK something else entirely. It's actually a VERY popular tool that you still see in anime and manga, but they use it as internal monologue. For example, when, say, Naruto is trying to reason out how he's going to combat a particular move, he'll go through the process internally (which the audience can hear), then the payoff is seeing him act out... or fail. American comics used to OWN this technique. We've given it up, however, for quicker pacing and self-contained arcs. Easier to monetize and make movies from.

3. Another tool Claremont mastered was the dream sequence. Admittedly, he lifted the technique straight from Gaiman, Ursula Le Guinn and Octavia Butler at the time as he made no secret of loving 70's sci fi. He blatantly stole the Shadow King outright from Octavia Butler. Regardless, his characters had the ability to engage in dreams, most evident during the Inferno, Australia years, and notably during his Paul Smith run. This gave the characters even more depth, with which to plan long run plots, and even short run character bits.

4. The man just gave up. To put it bluntly, he had his soul snatched away and wasn't able to finish the story that he intended to. Good or bad, he had a particular story that he wanted to tell about the X-Men and specifically Wolverine. There's a time and a place, and you just can't snatch a writer out of that groove, divorce him from the content, then expect him to pick back up years later as if the writing just paused and he hadn't changed as a person. For example, there was a time 10 - 15 years ago when I wanted more than anything to write for Marvel, and specifically The X-Men. Now that I'm older and my sensibilities and priorities have shifted, I couldn't care less about writing for any major publisher.

5. Claremont is exposed. Without a strong collaborator in the artist/storyteller, or in the editor, you begin to see that Claremont falls back on old stories and old dialogue rhythms.
You get passable stuff like Soverign Seven, or outright cringey stuff like GeNext.
When Claremont felt like he was finally feeling something like the old CC with X-Men forever, it was too late. The books lived in the past, they weren't contemporary, and ultimately, the didn't matter.

Claremont was inarguably one of the most powerful writers in mainstream comics. He influenced some of the best books on the market (like Teen Titans), and to say that he sucked all along is not only absurd but disrespectful and totally ignorant of the contribution to Marvel. Hell, there was a point in the 80s where it felt like he was writing half of Marvel's books. This is why there was such strong continuity between Spidey, X-men, Power mand and Iron Fist, etc. He was definitely the Bendis of his day.

Finally, Marvel was just a different place back then. In a shared universe where details mattered enough to make a "Marvel handbook to the Marvel Universe", Claremont was under a team where everyone was on the same page. That no longer exists.

Hope that helps.
 

Slayven

Member
X-Men forever reads like badly written fan fiction.

It was bruuuuuuutal.

group_shot_for_jordan_gen_x_low_res.jpg
 
I'm of the opinion that you can only write comics if you're already a little unstable or, if you do, you'll go nuts within a few years.

Everybody snaps.
 
He said everything that he could say in the first 16 years.

He was never really interested in maintaining the status quo. Sometimes it worked, and sometimes it was a disaster, like when the X-Men broke up for like a year and Wolverine was hallucinating Nick Fury's ghost. I think people just wanted him to do his greatest hits when he came back but he was more interested in doing weird shit.
 

Viewt

Member
Claremont deserves all the credit in the world for lifting the X-Men out of the hole they were in prior to his coming on (well, really what kicked it off was Giant-Size X-Men, but Claremont's run starts, like, immediately afterwards, and the only reason they were able to sustain that success was because of him). But he's a product of his time, and you can't keep the magic flowing forever. These days Claremont is just kind of riding on the strength of his name and legacy more than anything else.

He wore himself out. But unless your name's Mark Waid, that happens to everyone.

Mark Waid is the most consistently-good writer in the history of comics. He's not the best comics writer of all time, but I'll bet his good:shit ratio is the envy of the rest of the industry.
 
He said everything that he could say in the first 16 years.

He was never really interested in maintaining the status quo. Sometimes it worked, and sometimes it was a disaster, like when the X-Men broke up for like a year and Wolverine was hallucinating Nick Fury's ghost. I think people just wanted him to do his greatest hits when he came back but he was more interested in doing weird shit.

Pretty much. People remember the good, and there was a lot of good, but there was a LOT of batshit insane stupid shit.

His X-Men is basically what would happen if you let a sober Morrison write a book for two decades. Flashes of brilliance, a lot of definition for characters that badly needed it, but a hell of a lot of stupid insane shit.
 

Slayven

Member
My theory is Mark Millar is a clone of Garth Ennis, Millar's brain never formed the section that handles self control.
 

kswiston

Member
If I'm being perfectly honest, his old stuff wasn't that great either. I just think he did some memorable stories during a time when the X-Men weren't getting a lot of memorable stories.

The first half of his uncanny run, especially the stuff with Byrne, were peak superhero comics at the time. Even beyond that, his focus on character interactions resonated with a ton of readers. You act like it was just a mediocre book finally getting some decent arcs, when X-Men went from printing reruns, to being the biggest book in the industry for around 20 years under Claremont.

What happened between his first run and his return was that the big two were undergoing a style change and his exposition heavy writing style was increasingly outdated. It's also hard to keep coming up with fresh ideas for a property after so long.
 
The first half of his uncanny run, especially the stuff with Byrne, were peak superhero comics at the time. Even beyond that, his focus on character interactions resonated with a ton of readers. You act like it was just a mediocre book finally getting some decent arcs, when X-Men went from printing reruns, to being the biggest book in the industry for around 20 years under Claremont.

Also helped that he was allowed carte blanche to do whatever he wanted as far as line wide ramifications too. I mean, during the time he was writing the X books, the Avengers were fighting the Skrulls who had TAKEN OVER THE WORLD but that is never mentioned once in the X books because he thought it was stupid.

I can appreciate that moreso now that we're in an era of unprecedented editorial oversight.
 
How do you explain Mark Millar?

Easy. Mark Millar writes in short story arcs with a clear concept, a beginning, middle, and end. No matter how wacky the concept, he sees the idea through. All of his work is based on an idea. Much respect to Millar. He's a more focused Grant Morrison. Approaching writing in that way, he can go on forever.
 
Any Uncanny X-Men after #253 is utter garbage and should be ignored entirely. Everything before that is generally pretty great.
 
Mark Waid is the most consistently-good writer in the history of comics. He's not the best comics writer of all time, but I'll bet his good:shit ratio is the envy of the rest of the industry.
[/QUOTE]

This might actually be true! Consistent mainstream writer? It's a short list.
 
It's him, Warren Ellis, Hickman the gawd (though he did fuck up Superman pretty bad) and maybe Morrison.

Not exactly the longest list.
 
Also helped that he was allowed carte blanche to do whatever he wanted as far as line wide ramifications too. I mean, during the time he was writing the X books, the Avengers were fighting the Skrulls who had TAKEN OVER THE WORLD but that is never mentioned once in the X books because he thought it was stupid.

I can appreciate that moreso now that we're in an era of unprecedented editorial oversight.

I just got back into comics off the strength of the marvel apps, but these linewide events will make me quit if they continue.
 

Weiss

Banned
His recent Nightcrawler series was awesome and I will fight anyone who says otherwise.

Anyway, he's an old hand writer. His legendary run on Uncanny X-Men is, bar none, the best superhero comic of all time, but it ended 25 years ago. Standards for writing and pacing change, and Claremont hasn't.

I am, by and large, okay with this.
 

Boogiepop

Member
Some of the posts in this thread are MADNESS. Respect. X-Men wouldn't be where it is today without his contribution. Emphasis on CONTRIBUTION.

Claremont was definitely a product of the time, and he was able to create a type of story and template that just can't be reproduced. Even by him.

For starters, he had ACE editorial team(s). He came on to the book when nobody gave a damn about X-Men and it's a lot easier to play with something when it wasn't on the radar.
Over the years, people forget that Claremont worked with fucking PHENOMENAL writers / editors. Ann Nocenti. Jim Shooter. Claremont is best when he's collaborating. John Byrne. Paul Smith. The stories are best when the artists also have a good understanding of story and they work well together, or there's a strong editorial direction that lines up with the team's sensibilities.
You can tell that Marvel was this hugely creative environment at the time. Marvel was this huge playhouse for artists and writers to get together and play together with the purpose of a unified universe.

1. Claremont - and a lot of writers at the time - wrote stories that felt more like serial soap operas that relied heavily on the tools of the medium. Often, the dialogue was slower paced. Less snappy. Longer moments set aside for character growth that don't necessarily push the plot. (Ororo, you really don't like being in enclosed environments, do you? Kurt, does this make you question your belief in God? etc). Also, just look at his contemporaries who he was inspired by at the time. People whom he read in his free time. Elfquest. Wandering Star. Or even Star Trek. Work that was so distinctly 80's and character-heavy that nobody today would have the patience for. Comics as a whole was just very different then.


2. One of the worst things to happen to american comics was when they began to copy the tools and pacing of television. One of Claremont's most powerful tools was the inner thought bubble. That tool totally disappeared during the modern age (the bendis years), but it allowed a character to speak one thing and THINK something else entirely. It's actually a VERY popular tool that you still see in anime and manga, but they use it as internal monologue. For example, when, say, Naruto is trying to reason out how he's going to combat a particular move, he'll go through the process internally (which the audience can hear), then the payoff is seeing him act out... or fail. American comics used to OWN this technique. We've given it up, however, for quicker pacing and self-contained arcs. Easier to monetize and make movies from.

3. Another tool Claremont mastered was the dream sequence. Admittedly, he lifted the technique straight from Gaiman, Ursula Le Guinn and Octavia Butler at the time as he made no secret of loving 70's sci fi. He blatantly stole the Shadow King outright from Octavia Butler. Regardless, his characters had the ability to engage in dreams, most evident during the Inferno, Australia years, and notably during his Paul Smith run. This gave the characters even more depth, with which to plan long run plots, and even short run character bits.

4. The man just gave up. To put it bluntly, he had his soul snatched away and wasn't able to finish the story that he intended to. Good or bad, he had a particular story that he wanted to tell about the X-Men and specifically Wolverine. There's a time and a place, and you just can't snatch a writer out of that groove, divorce him from the content, then expect him to pick back up years later as if the writing just paused and he hadn't changed as a person. For example, there was a time 10 - 15 years ago when I wanted more than anything to write for Marvel, and specifically The X-Men. Now that I'm older and my sensibilities and priorities have shifted, I couldn't care less about writing for any major publisher.

5. Claremont is exposed. Without a strong collaborator in the artist/storyteller, or in the editor, you begin to see that Claremont falls back on old stories and old dialogue rhythms.
You get passable stuff like Soverign Seven, or outright cringey stuff like GeNext.
When Claremont felt like he was finally feeling something like the old CC with X-Men forever, it was too late. The books lived in the past, they weren't contemporary, and ultimately, the didn't matter.

Claremont was inarguably one of the most powerful writers in mainstream comics. He influenced some of the best books on the market (like Teen Titans), and to say that he sucked all along is not only absurd but disrespectful and totally ignorant of the contribution to Marvel. Hell, there was a point in the 80s where it felt like he was writing half of Marvel's books. This is why there was such strong continuity between Spidey, X-men, Power mand and Iron Fist, etc. He was definitely the Bendis of his day.

Finally, Marvel was just a different place back then. In a shared universe where details mattered enough to make a "Marvel handbook to the Marvel Universe", Claremont was under a team where everyone was on the same page. That no longer exists.

Hope that helps.

There are definitely some other solid posts in here, but thanks for this in particular. Definitely the sort of thing I was looking for.
 

Slayven

Member
You're going to have to prove Garth Ennis had self control to begin with
Garth has talent which can mask a lot of bullshit.

But Millar literally did dead baby comedy


I think I am the only comic nerd that doesn't like Morrison. Dude has these grand concepts that quickly become word salad if not outright gibberish. I always thought he should work with someone to flesh out and tame his ideas
 

Viewt

Member
And Busiek probably.

I love Busiek (Superman: Secret Identity is probably my favorite comic of all time), but his output tends to come in bursts. Waid is *always* working on a handful of things, and they're usually all at least solid. He basically kept BOOM! alive through sheer force of will.

I think I am the only comic nerd that doesn't like Morrison. Dude has these grand concepts that quickly become word salad if not outright gibberish. I always thought he should work with someone to flesh out and tame his ideas

Grant Morrison is creative as fuck. Sometimes that creativity comes out beautifully on the page, sometimes it's a garbled mess. But the fact that he's always willing to go balls out is why he has such diehard fans.
 
I just got back into comics off the strength of the marvel apps, but these linewide events will make me quit if they continue.

Civil War started this shit, it sold like gangbusters so now they need to do two a year because it's the only way they can prop up the books editorial wants to push (coughCapMarvelcough) that don't have any justification to continue to be propped up.

It's gonna get worse man, they're gonna start doing this shit twice a year, there won't be a point pretty soon where there ISN'T a linewide event going on.
 
Civil War started this shit, it sold like gangbusters so now they need to do two a year because it's the only way they can prop up the books editorial wants to push (coughCapMarvelcough) that don't have any justification to continue to be propped up.

It's gonna get worse man, they're gonna start doing this shit twice a year, there won't be a point pretty soon where there ISN'T a linewide event going on.
Ugh!
 
Garth has talent which can mask a lot of bullshit.

But Millar literally did dead baby comedy


I think I am the only comic nerd that doesn't like Morrison. Dude has these grand concepts that quickly become word salad if not outright gibberish. I always thought he should work with someone to flesh out and tame his ideas

Maybe I just did enough drugs when I was growing up that it's more coherent to me.

I can agree that Batman RIP is peak Morrison fucksanity that people that dislike him see though, shit makes NO sense. Weapons grade crystal meth? Batman of Zur-Ehn-Arh? Bruh, I get it, the Silver Age makes you giddy in the nethers. But I don't need you puking it all over the page every panel.
 
I love Busiek (Superman: Secret Identity is probably my favorite comic of all time), but his output tends to come in bursts. Waid is *always* working on a handful of things, and they're usually all at least solid. He basically kept BOOM! alive through sheer force of will.



Grant Morrison is creative as fuck. Sometimes that creativity comes out beautifully on the page, sometimes it's a garbled mess. But the fact that he's always willing to go balls out is why he has such diehard fans.
Hey! He has worked on Astro City so much it hits #100 early next year. :p
 
Garth has talent which can mask a lot of bullshit.

But Millar literally did dead baby comedy


I think I am the only comic nerd that doesn't like Morrison. Dude has these grand concepts that quickly become word salad if not outright gibberish. I always thought he should work with someone to flesh out and tame his ideas

I agree with you on Morrison. That's why I said that Millar is a 'more focused' morrison. When Grant was reigned in, like that first Justice league arc, or even when he had a self contained story like Marvel Boy or We3, Grant is a badass. When he's just let to run free, he goes totally Kojima. Totally. Kojima.
 

Viewt

Member
Chuck Dixon is pretty consistent.

Or was before he went off the deep end and started doing comic adaptations of Clinton Cash.

For a second I read that as Chuck Austen and had a mini-stroke haha.

Hey! He has worked on Astro City so much it hits #100 early next year. :p

Haha, hey, I like Astro City (or at least, I did, before I fell off of it). But yeah, Kurt is... often distracted.

I love Chuck for writing my favorite Batman, Robin, and Nightwing runs, but, yeah, dude hasn't written a good book in quite a while.

Oh yeah! He did that Nightwing run. That was good stuff.
 

DeathyBoy

Banned
Mark Waid is the most consistently-good writer in the history of comics. He's not the best comics writer of all time, but I'll bet his good:shit ratio is the envy of the rest of the industry.

This might actually be true! Consistent mainstream writer? It's a short list.[/QUOTE]

Mark Waid is comics version of Jim Cornette.
 
Claremont was a great writer of his time, telling stories that elevated the format by dealing with timely subjects and featuring uncharacteristically strong roles for women and minorities. However, he falls into many of the same pitfalls that were common to the era in which he worked.

He overwrites like a mother fucker and doesn't let the artist's work tell the story. Also, he relies on mind control to create artificial and lazy conflicts.

After a while that approach went out of style and he stuck out like a sore thumb.

Honestly though, most writers today are just as bad in their own ways, but people are willing to look past it because they are fans of the IP first and foremost.

edit:

The NYT piece was hilarious, "I'm worry that todays heroes are morally and ethically compromised and no longer stand for justice and truth" says the guy who created Azazel.


I think you are confusing Chuck Dixon with Chuck Austen.




In regards to talk about Grant Morrison. I have never liked anything the man has written. He has half formed ideas that seem mostly lifted from other writers and his dialogue is something a middle schooler would write. Also, on a personal level he seems like a real unprofessional piece of shit.
 
Claremont was a great writer of his time, telling stories that elevated the format by dealing with timely subjects and featuring uncharacteristically strong roles for women and minorities. However, he falls into many of the same pitfalls that were common to the era in which he worked.

He overwrites like a mother fucker and doesn't let the artist's work tell the story. Also, he relies on mind control to create artificial and lazy conflicts.

After a while that approach went out of style and he stuck out like a sore thumb.

Honestly though, most writers today are just as bad in their own ways, but people are willing to look past it because they are fans of the IP first and foremost.

He used to let the artist tell the story sometimes when it was an artist he was really exited to be working with.

When Barry Windsor-Smith drew an issue for example his dialogue suddenly got a lot leaner.
 
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