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The Pyra (handheld linux pc with gaming controls) detailed at FOSDEM today

S

Sir_Crocodile

Member
Evildragon(Michael Mrozek), one of the guys behind the original Pandora handheld, gave a lot of detail about a successor, the Pyra at Fosdem(Free and Open source Software Developers' European Meeting) today. The Pandora was basically a handheld Linux computer with full keyboard and gaming controls, and the Pyra aims to be the same with updated components and refined controls and casing.

The entire (one hour!) talk is available for download here:

http://slackware.openpandora.org/pandora/videos/Pandora-Pyra-FOSDEM-2014.webm

But for those who don't have an hour to go through it, the main details are available on the Pyra website here:

http://www.pyra-handheld.com/specs.html

and there's a quick video showing what the cpu is capable of doing here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEbu-0kAtjU#t=55

seems to be running 2 instances of a psx emulator using no hardware acceleration, gimp, and some game which I have no idea about all at once, so power seems pretty decent.

What I got from the FOSDEM video given how far he's gotten with parts and prototyping seems to indicate that this will be coming out sometime close to the end of this year(please note this is JUST my assumption, given the debacle of the Pandora release he obviously has no intention of talking timeline this time round).

I'm super hyped for this. I love my Pandora, but it is starting to feel a bit long in the tooth(though it did a lot more then I ever dreamed, would not have thought psp had a hope in hell of being remotely playable). The talk suggests all of the niggles that I have with the original Pandora design are things he's taken on board and wishes to change.

--------------

I'm going to add this because it's bound to come up and it'll save a lot of time if it's in the OP since you'd have to have followed the Pandora project VERY closely to have an understanding of the rollercoaster ride it was.

It's important to note that the original Pandora had a LOT of production problems, which was mainly down to inexperience, mismanagement and reliance on Chinese manufacturers who didn't have a great deal of interest in fulfilling orders for a paltry 4000 devices when they usually work in the hundred of thousands and millions - which made prototyping take an age - along with all the usual long-distance problems that outsourcing work so far away usually entails.

There was also a lot of distribution problems, with two companies set up by two of the founders of the Pandora project selling to different areas, with....different customer service experiences

one of them didn't fulfil all their orders, was on bad terms with the community and was generally thought by the community to be the source of a lot of the mismanagement of the original project. He is not involved in this project at all.

The other fulfilled all of their orders, was and still is well regarded by the community and took over management of the Pandora project and moved production to Europe. He is evildragon and is in charge of the Pyra project.

Apart from the battery (which already exists) and peripherals, the plan is for the Pyra to be designed, prototyped and manufactured in Europe, which evildragon already has experience with from moving the Pandora project to europe after it almost died a few years ago. Personally I trust the dude which is one of the reasons I'm looking forward to this even after the many problems the Pandora suffered.
 
G

GhostTrick

Banned
Meh... I expected a x86 handheld...
Also, I don't see the point of such handheld nowadays. I mean back in the days, OpenPandora was unique enough... but today, you can plug a controller to any android phone or device. Heck, eventhe Nvidia Shield exists !

Also, after OpenPandora, I don't know if I can trust them...
 
A

Alric

Member
If this thing can play late 90's early 2000 games I am all about this. I've love to play some Lands of Lore or Severance Blade of Darkness or even Septerra Core on the go.
 
S

Sir_Crocodile

Member
GhostTrick said:
Meh... I expected a x86 handheld...
Also, I don't see the point of such handheld nowadays. I mean back in the days, OpenPandora was unique enough... but today, you can plug a controller to any android phone or device. Heck, eventhe Nvidia Shield exists !

Also, after OpenPandora, I don't know if I can trust them...
Click to expand...

True about the phones, but unless you're rocking a custom OS then there's a lot of phone overhead keeping you from getting maximum performance, you have the hassle of clipping on the controller every time you want to use it as a games console, and you constantly have to be worried about leaving enough power in the thing to use it as a phone.

Trust wise I discussed that in the OP. The guy that caused a lot of the problems is gone, the manufacture will be in Europe and the dude has supported the community well over the last few years. We got an OS update only a month ago. There will always be some element of risk, but ED is well established and has done his best to make up for the problems the pandora suffered in its early years.

Alric said:
If this thing can play late 90's early 2000 games I am all about this. I've love to play some Lands of Lore or Severance Blade of Darkness or even Septerra Core on the go.
Click to expand...

Not sure on that. It's linux + arm, so it might be doable via dosbox depending on the game, but pure windows based games are probably out.
 
G

GhostTrick

Banned
Sir_Crocodile said:
True about the phones, but unless you're rocking a custom OS then there's a lot of phone overhead keeping you from getting maximum performance, you have the hassle of clipping on the controller every time you want to use it as a games console, and you constantly have to be worried about leaving enough power in the thing to use it as a phone.
Click to expand...


True, but to be honest, this thing is likely to cost more than 300€... At this price, you could get a more powerfull Nexus 4 and a gamepad with universal clipping.
Now, I don't deny that it looks like a great product... but I think that nowadays, it might be a less appealing product than what OpenPandora was backthen. I also think that an x86 handheld might be a product that would interest a lot more people because of how unique it is. It would allow to play more games, to have a wider range of OS... I'm sure it would be possible if they could get Atom Bay Trail chipsets from Intel or Mullins from AMD.


Also, considering that OpenPandora is still sold for 500€... I don't expect this one to be less than 300€ at all.
 
G

Geedorah

Member
GhostTrick said:
Also, after OpenPandora, I don't know if I can trust them...
Click to expand...

It isn't just OpenPandora - there is a hugely fubar situation going on currently with the iControlPad2. I wouldn't trust anything that has even several degrees of separation from Craig Rothwell, gbax,or the entire iControlPad line.

Anyone that is willing to put money up for this project should be fully aware of all the issues surrounding all these projects. I am wholly disappointed with the poor way they have handled the iCP2 project over the last 18+ months - wish they would just honor my refund and I could be done with them all together.
 
tensuke

tensuke

Member
yZB583M.jpg


Oh man. I'm out getting medicine right now, so I'll have to wait until I get home to see this. But all of my yes. I have a first gen CC Pandora and it's probably the greatest thing I've ever owned. You haven't lived until you've used that form factor. GOAT. I never got the one I actually ordered, but that's mostly due to Craig's unfortunate mismanagement. But regardless, I absolutely trust Evildragon and if he can get this going, I'll be there on day one.

Edit: the icontrolpad2 is similarly in bad shape ($90 down the drain...) But that was headed by craig. As long as he's not involved with the Pyra, I'd give it a little more hope...But just a little. You do have to keep those things in mind. Also products like the Shield or Ouya (Shield less so since NVIDIA is pretty big) have been hit or miss. As long as you know what you're getting yourself into, you'll be fine.

Edit2: Holy shit! Sorry for the huge image, didn't know it was that big (posted on mobile). Apologies!
 
S

Sir_Crocodile

Member
Geedorah said:
It isn't just OpenPandora - there is a hugely fubar situation going on currently with the iControlPad2. I wouldn't trust anything that has even several degrees of separation from Craig Rothwell, gbax,or the entire iControlPad line.

Anyone that is willing to put money up for this project should be fully aware of all the issues surrounding all these projects. I am wholly disappointed with the poor way they have handled the iCP2 project over the last 18+ months - wish they would just honor my refund and I could be done with them all together.
Click to expand...

I didn't say anything in the OP about ICP2 because ED didn't have anything to do with the failure of that project. That was ALL craig, and he's not involved with the Pyra at all
 
J

jim-jam bongs

Member
That was unexpected, but still pretty sweet. Since I have a Shield for emulation and streaming it's not up my alley at this point, but I'm going to keep an eye on this anyway.
 
F

Faustek

Member
Off topic:

The game in question is called The Battle for Wesnoth and its an awesome game, the music is pleasantly good and the strategic elements are solid. The best part of the game is the community made addons(free mostly) and its for Linux/pc/MacOSX.

Give it a go and download it at http://www.wesnoth.org or buy it on the play store, going to assume the app store has it as well.

On topic:

This is awesome. Wonder how/when they will make us if HW acceleration.
 
S

Sir_Crocodile

Member
Faustek said:
Off topic:

The game in question is called The Battle for Wesnoth and its an awesome game, the music is pleasantly good and the strategic elements are solid. The best part of the game is the community made addons(free mostly) and its for Linux/pc/MacOSX.

Give it a go and download it at http://www.wesnoth.org or buy it on the play store, going to assume the app store has it as well.
Click to expand...

Ah cool, will give it a look.

Faustek said:
On topic:

This is awesome. Wonder how/when they will make us if HW acceleration.
Click to expand...

I imagine it won't be too long, as the gpu is an evolution of the one in the Pandora, and both also use NEON. A lot of the more popular stuff like the psx emulator may be ported on the devboards before it's even released if we're lucky.
 
I

injurai

Banned
AdrianWerner said:
Shame it's ARM. I wish I could get actually good Windows handheld
Click to expand...

Even though a stock install of windows could be just as fast, you really need x86 which at that point your hardware configuration is demanding much higher draws of power than what would make sense for this realm of handhelds.

Couldn't you just get a surface pro with controller?
 
S

Sir_Crocodile

Member
M3d10n said:
PowerVR? AFAIK there's no open source drivers for those, are there?
Click to expand...

Nope, it's a binary blob. Supposed to be a very good binary blob though, and it's doubtful anything better would be doable were it open.

Apparently the only one that is open source is mali, but Samsung (who I think have the only decent SOC with mali) won't sell their chips in such small quantities unfortunately.
 
G

GhostTrick

Banned
injurai said:
Even though a stock install of windows could be just as fast, you really need x86 which at that point your hardware configuration is demanding much higher draws of power than what would make sense for this realm of handhelds.

Couldn't you just get a surface pro with controller?
Click to expand...




In fact, x86 is possible on a handheld. Lately, Intel and AMD both improved a lot with their tablet, fanless SoC.
Intel has Bay Trail, which can be found in 8 inch tablets and is a quad core Atom CPU with an Intel HD GPU. Good enough to play a lot of Xbox 360 games.
And AMD is supposed to come up with Mullins, which is supposed to be even better.
 
S

Sir_Crocodile

Member
x86 will probably be doable next time round, but I suspect the heat will be too much for the pyra's form factor right now since I assume the manufacturing budget isn't high enough to get tolerance for that.

Although by then they'll have two generations of polished arm software....
 
G

GhostTrick

Banned
Tobor said:
FAIL.
Click to expand...


Resistive screen are like... more precise you know ? Might not be the best for finger use, but trust me, it's far better than capacitive screen when it comes to being precise... even with so called capacitive stylus. Yeah, even old NDS screen is precise.
 
S

SScorpio

Member
I kickstarted the GCW Zero which had similar promises. But after receiving it, it has sat in the box it came in as the community to create software for it hasn't taken off.

Over black Friday I jumped in on the deals that were going around on the Nvidia Shield. I was worried about OS overhead, but after playing with it all of my fears went away.

Holding it, it feels roughly like a 360 controller, only heavier. It has about six hours of battery life and runs everything I've tried on it.

A fully open source console running Linux sounds really cool, but Android has an extremely large developer base. I can't see one of these devices taking off when you have hundreds of devices running Android that will do just as well of a job.
 
S

Sir_Crocodile

Member
SScorpio said:
I kickstarted the GCW Zero which had similar promises. But after receiving it, it has sat in the box it came in as the community to create software for it hasn't taken off.

Over black Friday I jumped in on the deals that were going around on the Nvidia Shield. I was worried about OS overhead, but after playing with it all of my fears went away.

Holding it, it feels roughly like a 360 controller, only heavier. It has about six hours of battery life and runs everything I've tried on it.

A fully open source console running Linux sounds really cool, but Android has an extremely large developer base. I can't see one of these devices taking off when you have hundreds of devices running Android that will do just as well of a job.
Click to expand...

The software most people wanted for the Pandora was, to be honest, emulators. And we got them, and good ones at that - my Pandora most assuredly did NOT sit in its box. The community has been fairly good on that over the past few years. Added to that, the Pyra is going to be running debian, so I guess most of the stuff in their ARM repos will work. No one going into this is really expecting new, native games, though I think there's some kind of software that'll allow android programs to run on it.
 
G

Grief.exe

Member
GhostTrick said:
Meh... I expected a x86 handheld...
Also, I don't see the point of such handheld nowadays. I mean back in the days, OpenPandora was unique enough... but today, you can plug a controller to any android phone or device. Heck, eventhe Nvidia Shield exists !

Also, after OpenPandora, I don't know if I can trust them...
Click to expand...

It kind of makes more sense now with Steam pushing onto Linux and in home streaming becoming viable.
 
Wiktor

Wiktor

Member
injurai said:
Even though a stock install of windows could be just as fast, you really need x86 which at that point your hardware configuration is demanding much higher draws of power than what would make sense for this realm of handhelds.

Couldn't you just get a surface pro with controller?
Click to expand...

Surface Pro? What would be the point? If I'm getting something this big I would rather get a proper gaming laptop. Surface is pretty terrible for gaming. even as tablet Razer Edge would be much better choice.

Personally I wish somebody would just make something like the canceled Razer Switchblade, only with analog conttrolers next to KB

gallery-9.jpg
Click to expand...

Also, aren't there x86 smartphones? So the architecture can fit into smaller devices.
 
G

GhostTrick

Banned
Grief.exe said:
It kind of makes more sense now with Steam pushing onto Linux and in home streaming becoming viable.
Click to expand...


The main problem is that Steam is pushing Linux... for x86 computers. Not ARM. So it's useless because it won't even allow streaming.
That's why a x86 handheld would've been a far more interesting idea:
You don't need to create software for it, nearly everything is compatible. More than that, they could also even came up with SteamOS for the handheld, and get a lot of hype for being the first "SteamBoy" or Steam handheld, playing all indie games without the need of port, or even less demanding 3D games, without the need of port. Everything working out of the box. Add a 720p 5inch screen, and it would've been a great device. Add a Wifi N antenna, with 5ghz band, and it would allow easy In Home streaming.

CES-2014-AMD-Nano-PC.jpg
Click to expand...

Look at this thing. A full x86 device, with SSD included and a big screen. No heat problem apparently, it's totally possible right now.
You can also play games such as Portal 2, Mass Effect 3, DmC, Devil May Cry 4 or FIFA on any Bay Trail CPU. And the whole package (CPU + GPU) is like 35 dollars. Totally doable and I wish someone would do it.
 
S

Sir_Crocodile

Member
AdrianWerner said:
Also, aren't there x86 smartphones? So the architecture can fit into smaller devices.
Click to expand...

Only old single core medfields I believe. Nothing recent & dual core has gone into a smartphone yet.

Lonely1 said:
So did I. I wanted one bad enough that I pre-ordered in 2009, device that I will probably never receive. :(
Click to expand...

Guessing your order went through Craig. :/

Contact ED, he may be able to do something for you - at the least, sell you a pyra at manufacture price. I realise that's not even close to being great. Craig really screwed the Pandora project up. :(
 
I

injurai

Banned
GhostTrick said:
In fact, x86 is possible on a handheld. Lately, Intel and AMD both improved a lot with their tablet, fanless SoC.
Intel has Bay Trail, which can be found in 8 inch tablets and is a quad core Atom CPU with an Intel HD GPU. Good enough to play a lot of Xbox 360 games.
And AMD is supposed to come up with Mullins, which is supposed to be even better.
Click to expand...

AdrianWerner said:
Surface Pro? What would be the point? If I'm getting something this big I would rather get a proper gaming laptop. Surface is pretty terrible for gaming. even as tablet Razer Edge would be much better choice.

Personally I wish somebody would just make something like the canceled Razer Switchblade, only with analog conttrolers next to KB

Also, aren't there x86 smartphones? So the architecture can fit into smaller devices.
Click to expand...

Well this has more or less proved my point that x86 isn't quite up to where it needs to be if trying to run windows for handheld gaming.

The crux of the matter is related to the power draw that most of these systems need, not to mention the GPU. The reason the Pandora and the Pyra get around this is due to the capability of pure CPU emulation.

There are entirely different hardware designing pipelines people must go down between Windows and Linux when making these highly focused devices.

If the surface doesn't do it for you, then another windows portable won't for another few years.
 
M

Mutanthands

Member
I love these kind of home brew projects, but I have learned to temper my expectations. The small scale of these projects just makes manufacturing, quality, and support be much more...iffy.

With indies gaining a foothold on consoles and handhelds, there is now a much more stable outlet for the good stuff. Not to mention anything with a touch interface can easily go to iOS or android.

Android is good for Emulator access, and if you want controls, there are plenty of android pseudo consoles made in China.

The niche targeted by the Pandora and the GP2X has been filled. Don't know if there is any room left for the Pyra.
 
G

Grief.exe

Member
GhostTrick said:
The main problem is that Steam is pushing Linux... for x86 computers. Not ARM. So it's useless because it won't even allow streaming.
That's why a x86 handheld would've been a far more interesting idea:
You don't need to create software for it, nearly everything is compatible. More than that, they could also even came up with SteamOS for the handheld, and get a lot of hype for being the first "SteamBoy" or Steam handheld, playing all indie games without the need of port, or even less demanding 3D games, without the need of port. Everything working out of the box. Add a 720p 5inch screen, and it would've been a great device. Add a Wifi N antenna, with 5ghz band, and it would allow easy In Home streaming.

CES-2014-AMD-Nano-PC.jpg


Look at this thing. A full x86 device, with SSD included and a big screen. No heat problem apparently, it's totally possible right now.
You can also play games such as Portal 2, Mass Effect 3, DmC, Devil May Cry 4 or FIFA on any Bay Trail CPU. And the whole package (CPU + GPU) is like 35 dollars. Totally doable and I wish someone would do it.
Click to expand...

Now I realize what you are saying. I didn't realize this box was ARM based.

I had just woken up when I read this thread, my apologies.
 
Wiktor

Wiktor

Member
Fularu said:
Surface pro has the latest core5 at 1.9 GHz

Which other tablet gets a better one? And I believe that the gpu isn't terrible either.
Click to expand...

Razer Edge has i7 and dedicated Nvidia GPU instead of integrated crap like Surface.

Surface looses in power to Edge and looses in portability to 8 inchers.

Plus for the kind of money Surface commands you might get a decent laptop suitable for gaming.
 
C

calc84maniac

Member
Mutanthands said:
I love these kind of home brew projects, but I have learned to temper my expectations. The small scale of these projects just makes manufacturing, quality, and support be much more...iffy.

With indies gaining a foothold on consoles and handhelds, there is now a much more stable outlet for the good stuff. Not to mention anything with a touch interface can easily go to iOS or android.

Android is good for Emulator access, and if you want controls, there are plenty of android pseudo consoles made in China.

The niche targeted by the Pandora and the GP2X has been filled. Don't know if there is any room left for the Pyra.
Click to expand...

Once Pandora's production got off the ground at the current manufacturing company (and I'm sure this will be much smoother with the Pyra, given the lessons they've learned from Pandora production), the quality and support was great.

Pandora's and Pyra's niche is for people who want a fully capable handheld PC running Linux, with a physical keyboard, gaming controls, a long battery life, and great community software support. I don't see anything else filling this niche.
 
G

GhostTrick

Banned
calc84maniac said:
Once Pandora's production got off the ground at the current manufacturing company (and I'm sure this will be much smoother with the Pyra, given the lessons they've learned from Pandora production), the quality and support was great.

Pandora's and Pyra's niche is for people who want a fully capable handheld PC running Linux, with a physical keyboard, gaming controls, a long battery life, and great community software support. I don't see anything else filling this niche.
Click to expand...



The main problem with Pandora and Pyra IMO is that they're far from fully capable handeld PC... because of ARM, it is limited. Not in term of power, but in term of software. Nowadays, What you could do with Pandora or Pyra, you could do the same with any Android device.

Back then, I think the hype for Pandora was due to the niche it was. Back then, when Pandora was announced, the only thing that could rival were PSP and Dingoo... which were pretty much limited in term of emulations. But with Pandora, N64 and PSX emulation at decent speed was possible and much more. There was just no equivalent.

But for Pyra ? What could Pyra do that others Android device couldn't ? Running Linux ? Sure... but for what reason ? What usage ? ARM software on Android is far more developped than it is on ARM Linux. That's the problem here. Even if it was an Android device... it's not unique anymore.
 
F

Fularu

Banned
AdrianWerner said:
Razer Edge has i7 and dedicated Nvidia GPU instead of integrated crap like Surface.

Surface looses in power to Edge and looses in portability to 8 inchers.

Plus for the kind of money Surface commands you might get a decent laptop suitable for gaming.
Click to expand...

A 128 gb Surgace pro is 500$

Show me a tablet that's more powerfull for that price.

Edit : also the surface pro is 1080p, the Edge is 768p
 
C

calc84maniac

Member
GhostTrick said:
The main problem with Pandora and Pyra IMO is that they're far from fully capable handeld PC... because of ARM, it is limited. Not in term of power, but in term of software. Nowadays, What you could do with Pandora or Pyra, you could do the same with any Android device.

Back then, I think the hype for Pandora was due to the niche it was. Back then, when Pandora was announced, the only thing that could rival were PSP and Dingoo... which were pretty much limited in term of emulations. But with Pandora, N64 and PSX emulation at decent speed was possible and much more. There was just no equivalent.

But for Pyra ? What could Pyra do that others Android device couldn't ? Running Linux ? Sure... but for what reason ? What usage ? ARM software on Android is far more developped than it is on ARM Linux. That's the problem here. Even if it was an Android device... it's not unique anymore.
Click to expand...

I'm not entirely familiar with the extent of Android software, but there are certainly a lot of things you can do on Linux but not on Android (they may be in "hacker" territory, but this is a niche we're talking about). Plus, I doubt most Android devices have full USB ports or HDMI out. But please inform me, what can an Android device do that Pyra can't do?

Edit: Looks like the Pyra may be able to run 98-99% of Android games within the Linux OS. http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/15542-running-android-apps-in-pyra-os/
 
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