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[Charoncaori]

Thank you, that was all very enlightening. =D

This is really fascinating stuff that puts things into a good (and scientific!) perspective. So would this mean it's possible to know (or at least have a good indication) that your child will be transsexual before they're even born?

I'm not sure about that. We still don't know how everything in the brain works, and there might be other factors, so even if you could tell whether a fetus would develop a male or female brain, I'd guess it wouldn't necessarily tell you which gender that child will end up with.

It'd be an interesting thing to study, though.

 

[RDreamer]

I'm not sure about that. We still don't know how everything in the brain works, and there might be other factors, so even if you could tell whether a fetus would develop a male or female brain, I'd guess it wouldn't necessarily tell you which gender that child will end up with.

It'd be an interesting thing to study, though.

Yeah, I'd assume there's probably a bit of leeway where someone could be affected, but possibly not as much as others, that's why I said indication. It would be pretty interesting to study. It'd also be interesting to see some people's reaction to being told that their child could be transgendered. I'm sure there would be a ton of deniers, though, unfortunately.

 

[mckmas8808]

This argument appears a few times in 'trans bathroom' threads, I'm never sure if people haven't thought it all the way through.



Here's a great start

Wholly crap this is a very interesting talk. The science behind this stuff is amazing and eye opening.

 

[yeoz]

as per the rules and regulations of the state of colorado

Rule 81.1 — Statement of Purpose
The rules in this section have been adopted to contribute to the elimination of discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation, inclusive of transgender status, in employment, housing, public accommodations, and advertising, as required by Parts 3 to 7 of Article 34, Title 24, Colorado Revised Statutes, as amended, hereinafter referred to as the “Law.” C.R.S. §24-34-305(1)(a), entitled “Powers and Duties of Commission,” authorizes the Commission to “adopt, publish, amend and rescind” regulations consistent with and for the enforcement of the Law.

Rule 81.2 — Sexual Orientation Definitions
(A) The term “sexual orientation,” as defined in the Law, means a person’s orientation toward heterosexuality, homosexuality, bisexuality, transgender status or another person’s perception thereof.
(B) The term “transgender” means having a gender identity or gender expression that differs from societal expectations based on gender assigned at birth.
(C) The term “gender identity” means an innate sense of one’s own gender.
(D) The term “gender expression” means external appearance, characteristics or behaviors typically associated with a specific gender.
(E) The term “covered entity” means any person, business, or institution required to comply with the antidiscrimination provisions of the Law.

[...snip...]

Rule 81.11 — Gender-Segregated Facilities

(A) Nothing in the Act prohibits segregation of facilities on the basis of gender.

(B) All covered entities shall allow individuals the use of gender-segregated facilities that are consistent with their gender identity. Gender-segregated facilities include, but are not limited to, restrooms, locker rooms, dressing rooms, and dormitories.

(C) In gender-segregated facilities where undressing in the presence of others occurs, covered entities shall make reasonable accommodations to allow access consistent with an individual’s gender identity.

It should be pretty clear that what the school is doing is illegal.

I'd support barring her from using female changing rooms, sure, but that's for her own sake.

This is illegal under Colorado law, too. The school would have to make reasonable accommodations to allow her access to those facilities (and it's not hard to imagine how. Just private changing areas with curtains should be enough, I think? I dunno.)

 

[Brian Griffin]

Then it will be fine later as well as they have put her on puberty blockers, and give her the female equivalent of puberty hormones as she reaches the age of puberty. Gym showers are a potential problem if she hasn't had sexual reassignment surgery by then, but that has nothing to do with letting her go to the female bathroom.

Does anyone even shower in school anymore? It's been over 10 years since I was in high school and even then no one ever showered after gym. I don't think the school can force you to get naked in front of the other students so she could just opt out.

 

[Omegasquash]

Does anyone even shower in school anymore? It's been over 10 years since I was in high school and even then no one ever showered after gym. I don't think the school can force you to get naked in front of the other students so she could just opt out.

This. I'm highly skeptical of any coach or gym teacher that has an expectation of all the young men and women in their charge to get naked. Something is wrong, there.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

Does anyone even shower in school anymore? It's been over 10 years since I was in high school and even then no one ever showered after gym. I don't think the school can force you to get naked in front of the other students so she could just opt out.

Yeah, that is a good point, and what someone else said about how they never change their knickers and bra.
If that's the case, then it would indeed not be a problem.

 

[FyreWulff]

Was in high school 98-2002, never showered. If they had pushed for it, I would have fought it.

I didn't even wear the entire gym uniform, I just put the shirt on and stood my ground on not putting on the shorts.

Kids shouldn't have to do so if they don't want to.

 

[iirate]

Does anyone even shower in school anymore? It's been over 10 years since I was in high school and even then no one ever showered after gym. I don't think the school can force you to get naked in front of the other students so she could just opt out.

Yeah, class of '04 and never showered at school

 

[blame space]

class of 06 and we always had circlejerks

 

[ShinNL]

This is really fascinating stuff that puts things into a good (and scientific!) perspective. So would this mean it's possible to know (or at least have a good indication) that your child will be transsexual before they're even born?

I'm not so sure about this. I'm pretty sure doctors kept telling my parents I would be a girl for the longest time but I was born a boy. I'm also pretty sure my thought process is sometimes considered feminine at times. I'm also pretty sure that if I was pushed in situation where I was told I can be a female when I was young, there was a possibility I wouldn't object to it and started the therapy process. However, I never felt I was in the wrong nor the right body. And I have to say, I would've hated it now as a grown up if I was ever pushed into a difficult irreversible direction just because of some hunches, because in the later stages of life every single human has to go through the process of accepting oneself, which is much more difficult for a transsexual.

 

[Dead Man]

Source: http://mediamatters.org/blog/2013/02/28/pediatrician-on-cnn-transgender-girls-will-walk/192836

During the February 27 edition of CNN Newsroom, host Brooke Baldwin led a panel discussion about Coy Mathis, a 6-year-old Colorado transgender girl who is suing her school district for the right to use female restrooms at her elementary school.

Everyone on the panel expressed support for Mathis' position except for Dr. James Sears, co-host of the CBS show The Doctors. Sears, who is a pediatrician and television personality, warned that Mathis might walk around the girls' bathroom with her penis exposed, like "most boys" allegedly do at that age:

SEARS: I have three kids, a daughter and two boys, and as when my daughter was that age, I would have been very uncomfortable if there was a boy with a penis walking around their bathroom. And you say that the stalls are private. You know, at that age, most boys especially will use the bathroom then leave their pants down while they walk to the sink to wash their hands and then pull it up. So it's going to be very uncomfortable for the other girls seeing a penis in their bathroom.

JENNIFER HUTT: She's a girl.

SEARS: She has a penis, though.

The other panelists were understandably confused and outraged at Sears' explanation and insistence on describing Mathis as a boy.

The "bathroom panic" argument is a popular conservative response to attempts to protect transgender people from discrimination, especially when it comes to public accommodations. It's also completely baseless.

Moreover, forcing Mathis, who identifies and presents herself as female, to use the boys' restroom would likely add to the extreme harassment that many transgender students like Coy already face in school. As Michael Silverman, executive director of the Transgender Legal Defense and Education Fund, recently stated:

"By forcing Coy to use a different bathroom than all the other girls, Coy's school is targeting her for stigma, bullying and harassment... Coy's school has the opportunity to turn this around and teach Coy's classmates a valuable lesson about friendship, respect and basic fairness."

As a pediatrician with a wide television audience, Sears should have known better than to contribute to stigmatizing transgender youth and hyping misinformed anxieties about letting children like Mathis use the bathrooms in which they feel comfortable.

Just shabby.

 

[ThreePiMatt]

Coy is going to be the target for bullying regardless of what bathroom she uses.

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

Then it will be fine later as well as they have put her on puberty blockers, and give her the female equivalent of puberty hormones as she reaches the age of puberty. Gym showers are a potential problem if she hasn't had sexual reassignment surgery by then, but that has nothing to do with letting her go to the female bathroom.

This is actually amazing. I have a transgender friend of a friend, I knew there was medication available, but nothing this extensive. If this is making people feel comfortable in their skin and live their lives as who they want to be, then that's fantastic. Hurrah for science!

 

[IISANDERII]

Is there something you wish to get off your chest?

heh. How long were you waiting to use that line?

 

[SquiddyCracker]

Source: http://mediamatters.org/blog/2013/02/28/pediatrician-on-cnn-transgender-girls-will-walk/192836

Just shabby.

This douche.
It's not surprising though, being a doctor doesn't mean you'll be knowledgeable about transgender issues.

 

[Pasco_]

It's not surprising though, being a doctor doesn't mean you'll be knowledgeable about transgender issues.

In fact, as recent evidence in the UK makes clear, Doctors quite often deal absolutely horribly with trans* patients.

Through personal experience, I can attest that doctors aren't great with gay people either.

 

[Wiktor]

I dont see what's the problem with bathrooms. Maybe they just afraid that if they allow her to use girls' bathroom she will later demand to use girls' showevers and changing rooms, which would be pretty problematic.

 

[RDreamer]

Source: http://mediamatters.org/blog/2013/02/28/pediatrician-on-cnn-transgender-girls-will-walk/192836

...the fuck? Most boys leave their pants completely down while they walk to the sink? First, how the hell do they walk with pants around their knees. Second, I'd be surprised if almost any boys did this. Wtf? Third, even as a boy I'm pretty sure I would have also been uncomfortable with someone doing this, even though I too have a penis. Has nothing to do with the issue, it's just weird.

 

[Deleted member 20920]

Source: http://mediamatters.org/blog/2013/02/28/pediatrician-on-cnn-transgender-girls-will-walk/192836

Everyone on the panel expressed support for Mathis' position except for Dr. James Sears, co-host of the CBS show The Doctors. Sears, who is a pediatrician and television personality, warned that Mathis might walk around the girls' bathroom with her penis exposed, like "most boys" allegedly do at that age:

Just shabby.

Makes me want to froth....

There's a thing called teaching your kids you know, Mr Sears?

And this guy is a pediatrician???

 

[ThreePiMatt]

...the fuck? Most boys leave their pants completely down while they walk to the sink? First, how the hell do they walk with pants around their knees. Second, I'd be surprised if almost any boys did this. Wtf? Third, even as a boy I'm pretty sure I would have also been uncomfortable with someone doing this, even though I too have a penis. Has nothing to do with the issue, it's just weird.

I don't know about walking to the sink, but a lot of young boys go completely pants around the ankles when using a urinal, Butters-style. Obviously no urinals in the girls bathrooms, but I don't think the idea of this girl in the bathroom penis flapping in the wind is completely far-fetched.

 

[RDreamer]

I don't know about walking to the sink, but a lot of young boys go completely pants around the ankles when using a urinal, Butters-style. Obviously no urinals in the girls bathrooms, but I don't think the idea of this girl in the bathroom penis flapping in the wind is completely far-fetched.

What? Of course it's far-fetched. First off, no urinals in a girls bathroom. There's just stalls. Second off, I'm sure this girl already feels different enough from other girls. Why exactly are we assuming she's going to go around waving her penis around like its some kind of trophy? You really seriously think she's going to do that? Third, how about if something like that does come up for some wacky reason we ask her not to do it. We shouldn't bar someone from someplace because in some crazy scenario they might possibly do something to make others uncomfortable.

 

[ThreePiMatt]

Kids do weird shit in bathrooms. Whether its seeing how far away from the toilet you can be and still make it in, or just playing swords or whatever. Not saying she's going to parade around with it hanging out, but fuck, they're kids, they don't have the same level of modesty as an older person might.

 

[Deleted member 20920]

Kids do weird shit in bathrooms. Whether its seeing how far away from the toilet you can be and still make it in, or just playing swords or whatever. Not saying she's going to parade around with it hanging out, but fuck, they're kids, they don't have the same level of modesty as an older person might.

Even if they do they can still be taught not to go around doing that. Might as well say that boys and girls should have separate classrooms because boys might swing their penises in class too.

 

[Cyan]

No, that's totally fair. Also she might parade around the faculty bathroom naked and freak out the teachers. Or she might jump out of the nurse's bathroom with her pants still down, you never know.

For everyone's safety, they just shouldn't let her use a bathroom at all. It's the only way to be sure.

 

[CHEEZMO™]

By kids, you mean boys. Girls pee sitting down

 

[Pasco_]

I dont see what's the problem with bathrooms. Maybe they just afraid that if they allow her to use girls' bathroom she will later demand to use girls' showevers and changing rooms, which would be pretty problematic.

Why would that be problematic? Of course she should be able to use the girls showers and changing rooms, on account of being a girl. If we're going to have gender segregated facilities then they have to be accessible by all people of the relevant gender, or what's the point?

As per a post only a few above yours, in Colorado it's illegal to prevent her using the girls bathroom, as it would be to prevent her from using the girls showers and changing rooms:

"(B) All covered entities shall allow individuals the use of gender-segregated facilities that are consistent with their gender identity. Gender-segregated facilities include, but are not limited to, restrooms, locker rooms, dressing rooms, and dormitories.

(C) In gender-segregated facilities where undressing in the presence of others occurs, covered entities shall make reasonable accommodations to allow access consistent with an individual’s gender identity."

 

[ThreePiMatt]

By kids, you mean boys. This is a girl. Girls pee sitting down and do not have "swordfights."

Who says girls have to pee sitting down?

 

[Wiktor]

Why would that be problematic? Of course she should be able to use the girls showers and changing rooms, on account of being a girl. If we're going to have gender segregated facilities then they have to be accessible by all people of the relevant gender, or what's the point?

The problem is she has a penis.
Locker rooms and showers aren't separated by gender, but by genitalia. Nobody cares there how you feel inside, as long as you have a penis you belong in boys shower and changing room

 

[ThreePiMatt]

Me, having the actual relevant experience here?

I'm not sure I follow.

 

[Spongebob]

I can't help, but side with the school on this.

They made the right call.

 

[Dead Man]

The problem is she has a penis.
Locker rooms and showers aren't separated by gender, but by genitalia. Nobody cares there how you feel inside, as long as you have a penis you belong in boys shower and changing room

Do we have to post the trans man pics again?

 

[SuperBonk]

The problem is she has a penis.
Locker rooms and showers aren't separated by gender, but by genitalia. Nobody cares there how you feel inside, as long as you have a penis you belong in boys shower and changing room

Despite the fact that this premise is severely flawed in a general sense, did you miss the part where this is specifically not the case in Colorado?

Pasco and yeoz's posts clearly state that gender-segregated facilities are segregated on the basis of gender identity. That is Colorado law.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

The problem is she has a penis.
Locker rooms and showers aren't separated by gender, but by genitalia. Nobody cares there how you feel inside, as long as you have a penis you belong in boys shower and changing room

So, you think this dude belong in a women's shower and changing room?

No penis!

 

[CrudeDiatribe]

I'm not sure I follow.

I believe the implication of the quote that you're replying to is that, in fact, that poster is a woman. I know, I know, there are no women on the internet, but... just imagine what life would be like if there were!

 

[Hawkian]

I believe the implication of the quote that you're replying to is that, in fact, that poster is a woman. I know, I know, there are no women on the internet, but... just imagine what life would be like if there were!

Let's not get crazy here.

Adorable family, hope this all works out in their favor.